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Should they be reintroduced?
I don't see why not. The research on how dangerous they are is inconclusive. Too much hysteria in the UK.
I don't see why not. The research on how dangerous they are is inconclusive. Too much hysteria in the UK.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
A quick Google suggests not really any risk to humans. So I'm therefore indifferent.
A quick Google suggests not really any risk to humans. So I'm therefore indifferent.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Which one are they re-introducing?
My favourite was 'Lynx Alaska'. It came in a blue can and I was sure it's effect on women was directly proportional to how much of it you sprayed on yourself.
In retrospect, I'm not quite so sure that was true...
Which one are they re-introducing?
My favourite was 'Lynx Alaska'. It came in a blue can and I was sure it's effect on women was directly proportional to how much of it you sprayed on yourself.
In retrospect, I'm not quite so sure that was true...
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
For what purpose? Are they particularly endangered?
Do we have a big small rodent problem in the UK? Or do you just want to annoy sheep and chicken farmers?
For what purpose? Are they particularly endangered?
Do we have a big small rodent problem in the UK? Or do you just want to annoy sheep and chicken farmers?
Post edited at 09:25
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Japanese knot weed?
> A quick Google suggests not really any risk to humans. So I'm therefore indifferent.
Japanese knot weed?
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Definitely. Not dangerous at all. Confined to woodlands and don't like open land very much. Very secretive. Lynx have been living in the Jura in Switzerland for years and locals have still never seen them. I only know they are there because I went out radio tracking with the guy who reintroduced them.
Definitely. Not dangerous at all. Confined to woodlands and don't like open land very much. Very secretive. Lynx have been living in the Jura in Switzerland for years and locals have still never seen them. I only know they are there because I went out radio tracking with the guy who reintroduced them.
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In reply to Lusk:
If they eat the animals that currently shit in my garden and veg patch then I'm all for it.
> Will they shit in people's gardens and vegetable patches?
If they eat the animals that currently shit in my garden and veg patch then I'm all for it.
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In reply to LastBoyScout:
Now that really was something that shit, (and leaked oil, coolant and other liquids), in the garden and veg patch.
Now that really was something that shit, (and leaked oil, coolant and other liquids), in the garden and veg patch.
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In reply to stevieb:
I understand they kill deer, of which we have excessive numbers. Basically for the same reason they reintroduced wolves in Yellowstone - balance of nature, it used to be called.
> For what purpose?
I understand they kill deer, of which we have excessive numbers. Basically for the same reason they reintroduced wolves in Yellowstone - balance of nature, it used to be called.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I can't see too many gamekeepers for the upper class, Tory voting, grouse shooting scum being too fond of this?
> Should they be reintroduced?
> I don't see why not. The research on how dangerous they are is inconclusive. Too much hysteria in the UK.
I can't see too many gamekeepers for the upper class, Tory voting, grouse shooting scum being too fond of this?
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In reply to Rog Wilko:
Well that could be a good reason.
I'm not dead set against them, it would be a small return to nature, but, since they haven't existed in Britain for 1500 years, there needs to be a decent reason. Deer numbers have been kept down by humans for most of that time. We've had bears more recently than lynx, and the European lynx is one of the least endangered large predators in the world.
And just because they eat deer in the wild, doesn't mean they will when they find captive small livestock. Some studies in scandanavia say they kill twice as many sheep as roe deer, and they won't kill many red deer, you'd need wolves for them. They will also kill grouse and pheasant. Farmers would want compensation for all of this.
> I understand they kill deer, of which we have excessive numbers. Basically for the same reason they reintroduced wolves in Yellowstone - balance of nature, it used to be called.
Well that could be a good reason.
I'm not dead set against them, it would be a small return to nature, but, since they haven't existed in Britain for 1500 years, there needs to be a decent reason. Deer numbers have been kept down by humans for most of that time. We've had bears more recently than lynx, and the European lynx is one of the least endangered large predators in the world.
And just because they eat deer in the wild, doesn't mean they will when they find captive small livestock. Some studies in scandanavia say they kill twice as many sheep as roe deer, and they won't kill many red deer, you'd need wolves for them. They will also kill grouse and pheasant. Farmers would want compensation for all of this.
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In reply to stevieb:
Got any links showing they kill twice as many sheep?
We have lynx here and I've never heard of anyone even suspecting a domestic animal being taken. It is true that if there are enough small deer they won't look at red or fallow deer, but because their range is quite large the deer here don't really have their population dented.
I think you could release 50 or 60 in the UK's wilder places and 99.99999% of the population wouldn't even notice, they are so reclusive.
> And just because they eat deer in the wild, doesn't mean they will when they find captive small livestock. Some studies in scandanavia say they kill twice as many sheep as roe deer, and they won't kill many red deer, you'd need wolves for them.
Got any links showing they kill twice as many sheep?
We have lynx here and I've never heard of anyone even suspecting a domestic animal being taken. It is true that if there are enough small deer they won't look at red or fallow deer, but because their range is quite large the deer here don't really have their population dented.
I think you could release 50 or 60 in the UK's wilder places and 99.99999% of the population wouldn't even notice, they are so reclusive.
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In reply to summo:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/jzo.12088/asset/jzo12088.pdf;j...
Here's a link to a Norwegian study, which shows high attacks on livestock, though some people consider it to be an outlier. Though it does show that they can take red deer when they have to.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/jzo.12088/asset/jzo12088.pdf;j...
Here's a link to a Norwegian study, which shows high attacks on livestock, though some people consider it to be an outlier. Though it does show that they can take red deer when they have to.
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In reply to stevieb:
Curious, although their survey area looks to follow the more populated e6 corridor, so I'd expect more domestic and less wild animals available to eat.
Looking at the table they seemed to take more lambs than sheep and only in summer. So to suggest they prey twice as much on sheep than roe deer is only partially true, and only for a few months of the year. The reds they took were generally young, which isn't surprising given their size.
Besides plenty parts of the UK could do with less sheep and deer grazing, win win!.
Curious, although their survey area looks to follow the more populated e6 corridor, so I'd expect more domestic and less wild animals available to eat.
Looking at the table they seemed to take more lambs than sheep and only in summer. So to suggest they prey twice as much on sheep than roe deer is only partially true, and only for a few months of the year. The reds they took were generally young, which isn't surprising given their size.
Besides plenty parts of the UK could do with less sheep and deer grazing, win win!.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I see in the paper most of the worlds carnivores are being pushed out of their habitats across the world like we have already done here. Time to set an example. If we still want lions on the Serengeti, we need to start by having lynx back here. Then the wolves. On big Scottish islands to begin with.
I see in the paper most of the worlds carnivores are being pushed out of their habitats across the world like we have already done here. Time to set an example. If we still want lions on the Serengeti, we need to start by having lynx back here. Then the wolves. On big Scottish islands to begin with.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
If you have some cumin or turmeric, even some nutmeg kicking around your kitchen cupboards you can also use that as an alternative. Basically any old spice would do.
> My favourite was 'Lynx Alaska'. It came in a blue can and I was sure it's effect on women was directly proportional to how much of it you sprayed on yourself.
If you have some cumin or turmeric, even some nutmeg kicking around your kitchen cupboards you can also use that as an alternative. Basically any old spice would do.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I think Summo is exactly right here. I've kept sheep and lynxand wolves were the least of my worries.
Farmers are generally hysterical, and sheep are cheap
I think Summo is exactly right here. I've kept sheep and lynxand wolves were the least of my worries.
Farmers are generally hysterical, and sheep are cheap
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In reply to summo:
You are right. The other thing is hat in Norway farmers were keeping their sheep in the woods and wondering why lynx sometimes ate a few. In Britain we don't keep sheep in woods. In other countries where they don't keep sheep in woods, like the rest of Europe, then there are very very few cases of lynx eating sheep, this is more a problem caused by weird Norwegian farming practices. I agree we should bring them back, the deer population is out of control and causing serious damage to farmland and woodland across the country.
You are right. The other thing is hat in Norway farmers were keeping their sheep in the woods and wondering why lynx sometimes ate a few. In Britain we don't keep sheep in woods. In other countries where they don't keep sheep in woods, like the rest of Europe, then there are very very few cases of lynx eating sheep, this is more a problem caused by weird Norwegian farming practices. I agree we should bring them back, the deer population is out of control and causing serious damage to farmland and woodland across the country.
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In reply to LakesWinter:
I wouldn't say grazing woodland is weird, it's only unusual in the UK because we've destroyed most of the forest. Granted the e6 corridor is chiefly spruce, not sheep's favourite nibbles and most of it mature too. So comparing these woodland habitats country to country is next to impossible. Lynx don't really like open fields and fells though; they want some cover.
> You are right. The other thing is hat in Norway farmers were keeping their sheep in the woods and wondering why lynx sometimes ate a few. In Britain we don't keep sheep in woods. In other countries where they don't keep sheep in woods, like the rest of Europe, then there are very very few cases of lynx eating sheep, this is more a problem caused by weird Norwegian farming practices. I agree we should bring them back, the deer population is out of control and causing serious damage to farmland and woodland across the country.
I wouldn't say grazing woodland is weird, it's only unusual in the UK because we've destroyed most of the forest. Granted the e6 corridor is chiefly spruce, not sheep's favourite nibbles and most of it mature too. So comparing these woodland habitats country to country is next to impossible. Lynx don't really like open fields and fells though; they want some cover.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Lynx, wolf, bears ... bring them all in. They'll have more than enough deer to snack in, farmers can be compensated for losses of life stock, and tourists and locals alike will love observing them.
Plus, you know - they kind of have the same right to live on this planet as we do, irrespective of if they steal a couple of sheep.
Lynx, wolf, bears ... bring them all in. They'll have more than enough deer to snack in, farmers can be compensated for losses of life stock, and tourists and locals alike will love observing them.
Plus, you know - they kind of have the same right to live on this planet as we do, irrespective of if they steal a couple of sheep.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
The education officer at the Highland wildlife Park told me it would never happen whilst Scottish wildcats still existed. The lynx would take over their territory and the wildcats would be extinct in very few years. As the wildcats are seriously endangered and lynx plentiful no-one involved in conservation is seriously promoting it.
The education officer at the Highland wildlife Park told me it would never happen whilst Scottish wildcats still existed. The lynx would take over their territory and the wildcats would be extinct in very few years. As the wildcats are seriously endangered and lynx plentiful no-one involved in conservation is seriously promoting it.
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In reply to boriselbrus:
Do you think the Lynx would cross the central belt from kielder? I've a mate involved in Wildcat conversation and the Lynx reintroduction project I'll have to ask him if it's a concern within the project.
Do you think the Lynx would cross the central belt from kielder? I've a mate involved in Wildcat conversation and the Lynx reintroduction project I'll have to ask him if it's a concern within the project.
In reply to stevieb:
Scandinavian roe deer are carnivorous?
> Some studies in scandanavia say they kill twice as many sheep as roe deer
Scandinavian roe deer are carnivorous?
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In reply to boriselbrus:
Do true Wildcats even exist? Most have a bit of moggie in them now.
> The education officer at the Highland wildlife Park told me it would never happen whilst Scottish wildcats still existed. The lynx would take over their territory and the wildcats would be extinct in very few years. As the wildcats are seriously endangered and lynx plentiful no-one involved in conservation is seriously promoting it.
Do true Wildcats even exist? Most have a bit of moggie in them now.
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In reply to summo:
Last years Autumn watch had a good piece on this. There are only a few that have pure bloodline and they're in a breeding programme in the Cairngorms.
> Do true Wildcats even exist? Most have a bit of moggie in them now.
Last years Autumn watch had a good piece on this. There are only a few that have pure bloodline and they're in a breeding programme in the Cairngorms.
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In reply to Dave the Rave:
I was partly joking. They also catch feral Tom cats and neuter them, then release them back. Better to have a big infertile Tom that keeps all the smaller fertile domestic cats away. Leaving the wild cats to hopefully pair up.
> Last years Autumn watch had a good piece on this. There are only a few that have pure bloodline and they're in a breeding programme in the Cairngorms.
I was partly joking. They also catch feral Tom cats and neuter them, then release them back. Better to have a big infertile Tom that keeps all the smaller fertile domestic cats away. Leaving the wild cats to hopefully pair up.
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I'm not anti, but far from convinced it is beneficial and many questions I would want answered. I understand it to be a reintroduction to the UK (as a whole) possibly starting in Kielder, so should ultimately be looking on as a countrywide reintroduction, not simply one forest area.
Controlling deer population seems to be a popular plus for them, but when lynx were in the UK there were 2 species of native deer, there are now 6 species. Which will lynx predate, which will even be in their habitat, what densities of lynx are needed to make an impact, will the deer simply sense a predator and move out of Kielder to other areas. If short of food (a population crashes in a prey species), I am far from convinced that a few sheep or anything else available would not be taken.
If lynx breed well, are there connecting corridors to other suitable habitats (as much is made of them avoiding open countryside) without conflict. If the deer population crashes in an area, will there be enough prey for them without upsetting the balance for other dependant predators (fox, raptors, polecats, owls, mustelids etc). Will they kill pine martens which are being reintroduced to areas to hopefully control grey squirrels? As mentioned above, what impact on Scottish wildcats, capercaillie, red squirrels? I can't imagine them making inroads into the red deer population.
I think there are still many, many questions that are glossed over by a general "They are a native species and will control deer, therefore a good thing." Are they going to be a good thing for everything, or turn out to be a very bad thing for another species?
I'm not anti, but far from convinced it is beneficial and many questions I would want answered. I understand it to be a reintroduction to the UK (as a whole) possibly starting in Kielder, so should ultimately be looking on as a countrywide reintroduction, not simply one forest area.
Controlling deer population seems to be a popular plus for them, but when lynx were in the UK there were 2 species of native deer, there are now 6 species. Which will lynx predate, which will even be in their habitat, what densities of lynx are needed to make an impact, will the deer simply sense a predator and move out of Kielder to other areas. If short of food (a population crashes in a prey species), I am far from convinced that a few sheep or anything else available would not be taken.
If lynx breed well, are there connecting corridors to other suitable habitats (as much is made of them avoiding open countryside) without conflict. If the deer population crashes in an area, will there be enough prey for them without upsetting the balance for other dependant predators (fox, raptors, polecats, owls, mustelids etc). Will they kill pine martens which are being reintroduced to areas to hopefully control grey squirrels? As mentioned above, what impact on Scottish wildcats, capercaillie, red squirrels? I can't imagine them making inroads into the red deer population.
I think there are still many, many questions that are glossed over by a general "They are a native species and will control deer, therefore a good thing." Are they going to be a good thing for everything, or turn out to be a very bad thing for another species?
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In reply to Moley:
What's wrong with trying it and seeing what happens? We don't need to micromanage every interaction between species.
In Yellowstone the reintroduction of wolves had some far reaching and unpredictable effects on the entire ecosystem.
What's wrong with trying it and seeing what happens? We don't need to micromanage every interaction between species.
In Yellowstone the reintroduction of wolves had some far reaching and unpredictable effects on the entire ecosystem.
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In reply to pasbury:
And so is sheep meat from abroad. Grow it locally I say like in the olden days ?
> No they're very expensive - in subsidies.
And so is sheep meat from abroad. Grow it locally I say like in the olden days ?
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
if you're interested, there's going to be a report on the subject of lynx reintroduction on tomorrow's R4 'Farming Today', Tuesday 5:45am.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xxdh1
Actually I might d/l it later, the glyphosate piece might be interesting too.
if you're interested, there's going to be a report on the subject of lynx reintroduction on tomorrow's R4 'Farming Today', Tuesday 5:45am.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08xxdh1
Actually I might d/l it later, the glyphosate piece might be interesting too.
In reply to Moley:
Not a scientist but have been to places where there are Lynx, and wolves, mostly to Belarus. Can't give you a full scientific opinion but without doubt they will affect other species. I wouldn't worry about red squirrels and pine martens suffering because they are common in lynx habitat. Numbers of foxes and badgers will very likely drop. Last year I saw a camera trap image of a lynx waiting outside a badger sett in ambush. If you want a similar case study, the number of coyotes crashed in Yellowstone on the reintroduction of wolves, since they were no longer the apex predator.
On the whole the more natural the system, the better it works. But to be natural there must be apex predators.
Surely the NFU will like fewer foxes and badgers....
Not a scientist but have been to places where there are Lynx, and wolves, mostly to Belarus. Can't give you a full scientific opinion but without doubt they will affect other species. I wouldn't worry about red squirrels and pine martens suffering because they are common in lynx habitat. Numbers of foxes and badgers will very likely drop. Last year I saw a camera trap image of a lynx waiting outside a badger sett in ambush. If you want a similar case study, the number of coyotes crashed in Yellowstone on the reintroduction of wolves, since they were no longer the apex predator.
On the whole the more natural the system, the better it works. But to be natural there must be apex predators.
Surely the NFU will like fewer foxes and badgers....
Post edited at 22:58
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In reply to Phil1919:
Have just listened to it, but it was disappointingly shot. They really simply announced that the EU would be discussing the possible renewal of its certification. The Food Health & Safety Commissioner was clearly pro-approval. Discussions starting this week with a decision likely by the end of this year. No mention of the WHO definitely considering it carcinogenic. (in the EU statement I mean, they mentioned it in the report's introduction.)
Have just listened to it, but it was disappointingly shot. They really simply announced that the EU would be discussing the possible renewal of its certification. The Food Health & Safety Commissioner was clearly pro-approval. Discussions starting this week with a decision likely by the end of this year. No mention of the WHO definitely considering it carcinogenic. (in the EU statement I mean, they mentioned it in the report's introduction.)
In reply to Fraser:
Thanks for that. I woke up at 5.56 and just heard the parting shot about Lynx.
If they just made Carolyn Lucas Minister for the environment I'd be happy!
Thanks for that. I woke up at 5.56 and just heard the parting shot about Lynx.
If they just made Carolyn Lucas Minister for the environment I'd be happy!
In reply to birdie num num:
How would the compensation scheme work?
> I think they should start introducing more cougars
How would the compensation scheme work?
In reply to Fraser:
For what its worth, the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) recently considered the new data on glyphosate, and concluded classification for carcinogenicity was not justified (https://echa.europa.eu/chemicals-in-our-life/hot-topics/glyphosate)
For what its worth, the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) recently considered the new data on glyphosate, and concluded classification for carcinogenicity was not justified (https://echa.europa.eu/chemicals-in-our-life/hot-topics/glyphosate)
In reply to kipper12:
Hardly surprising. The Petro chemical industry spends a large sum every year lobbying the eu. Just like when the MEPs recently voted against stricter car emmision rules following the VW test rigging. Big industry wins.
> For what its worth, the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) recently considered the new data on glyphosate, and concluded classification for carcinogenicity was not justified (https://echa.europa.eu/chemicals-in-our-life/hot-topics/glyphosate)
Hardly surprising. The Petro chemical industry spends a large sum every year lobbying the eu. Just like when the MEPs recently voted against stricter car emmision rules following the VW test rigging. Big industry wins.
In reply to Fraser:
It was so balanced it made me chuckle.
The deep green eco dude angry about how humans have killed off Lynx.
The scientist super balanced and kind of saying it was not such a big deal one way or the other.
The farmer putting forwards the anthropogenic view in favour of humans.
My view, why not, if a few sheep get killed, well the Farmer will get compensated and they are subsidised by tax payers in the first place anyway.
> if you're interested, there's going to be a report on the subject of lynx reintroduction on tomorrow's R4 'Farming Today', Tuesday 5:45am.
It was so balanced it made me chuckle.
The deep green eco dude angry about how humans have killed off Lynx.
The scientist super balanced and kind of saying it was not such a big deal one way or the other.
The farmer putting forwards the anthropogenic view in favour of humans.
My view, why not, if a few sheep get killed, well the Farmer will get compensated and they are subsidised by tax payers in the first place anyway.
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Could be good for reducing the baby population. Human numbers are out of control - we need a natural predator!
Could be good for reducing the baby population. Human numbers are out of control - we need a natural predator!
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