UKC

So this is a weird one.  We have a Facebook group for the local area and I connected with a woman who had posted about growing veg and other various gardening stuff as I'd been planning on making use of lock-down to try growing things. All pretty benign stuff.  Couple of exchanged messages, she's a professional photographer, struggling a lot in the current climate obviously.  I said if I could find some soil at the local supermarket I would throw her a bag in return for some tips on growing veg later on.

All very benign stuff.  Then last week I got up and noticed a message from her from just after midnight saying "are you there" and a missed call at about 1am.   Thought that was weird and a bit out of order...(because wives love calls from women in the early hours). I put it down to a mis-dial, or a pissed up call or something.  Replied the next morning with something like "ha, sorry, work night, phone on silent after 10".   

No response.

Another missed call this afternoon about 5pm (phone still on silent as I was still working), followed by a message "sorry, have I upset you?", replied that I was working and the phone was on silent.  At which point there was another missed call, and then the messages took a bit of a weird turn:

"Haha, that was really, funny, dickhead"

"Don't f*ck with me"

"Guess you should chill the f*ck out"

All unbidden, and then a few other messages,  as if she is talking to someone else, but sending the responses to me.  At one point I assumed I had been hacked, and someone else was sending her offensive messages and she was replying (but I was only seeing her responses.)..  Massively freaked me out., going from nice and friendly to offensive.

Again, never met her, only had a few vague exchanges via messenger before it all went weird.  Mentioned it to the missus in case she got the wrong end of the stick (because getting calls from a random woman at 1am could cause SERIOUS issues).  

I've managed to track down a mutual friend on Facebook and as soon as I mentioned it to her she said "I've had to unfriend her because she's been messaging me some very offensive things"...and it sounds exactly like what I've been receiving.

From what I'm getting from this mutual friend, it seems there is some history of mental illness, combined with a bit of alcoholism, and I guess it's all been exacerbated by the lockdown.  She lives alone, who knows how much that is magnifying the problem, being alone?  Having no other human contact? if she's having problems getting meds?  Paying for them?  I don't know?  I don't know how to help?  Who to call?  There seems to be a set of people around her who normally support her, but who have become alienated by her increasingly erratic and offensive behaviour who have distances themselves from her (which seems unfair given that' it's not her fault).  

She's gone on radio silence since about 10pm.   The friend I've called is going to call her support group in the morning and let me know.

I don't know what to do.  

Block all avenues of contact immediately.  The End.

IMO you've done the right thing telling your wife about it already. Now block her and in no circumstances have any further contact of any kind, ever. That's all you can do, and all that you should do. Again,  IMO

Even as a dyed in the wool atheist, that seems really f*cking cruel and unchristian.  Someone is in some sort of serious mental pain and I should just ignore it and do nothing?  Does the same apply if i think someone is lying in their house with a broken leg?   Is a physical emergency different to a mental one?

Just asking, like...

I don't think there is much you can do.  I'd strongly recommend that you prioritise your wife and block her.  

I know it sounds harsh, but if you get involved you are enabling her behaviour and the potential is there for her to get quite nasty and upset or hurt your wife.  

If you are specifically worried tonight that she may have harmed herself then you could call 101 and request a safe and well check from the police. 

A physical emergency is different to a mental emergency in that if you call an ambulance for someone with a broken leg they are unlikely to thank you for it by sending you or your wife threatening messages.  

Sorry, wasn't just responding to you there...just yours was the first response that showed up.

But if someone is sending is me threatening messages due to a mental illness it's not like they're actually in control of their actions is it?  Diminished responsibility?  I wouldn't say it's within their realm of control exactly.  I dont' feel especially good about just cutting them off in that state and thinking "well you're being nasty, so f*ck it"

I think it's important to differentiate between mental health and unacceptable behaviour.  

Getting drunk and sending someone nasty messages when you hardly know them isn't healthy behaviour, but nor is it a mental health emergency.  Yes, she is in pain, but instead of dealing with it she is spreading it around.  

If you get involved with her you are in for a whole lot of drama and it won't actually help her.  

I don't think this woman is being nasty and obnoxious out of choice if there's some sort of mental illness in play?  The advice of "block her and have nothing else to do with her" isn't what I was expecting to be honest. I was looking for pathways to get her some sort of support or help.  This is totally unknown territory to me.

You might be on a hiding to nothing but you could do worse than contacting your local community bobby (make sure you get a name and/or collar number). Report the offensive messages but angle it as a concern for welfare. At the very least it'll flag her up in the system and afford you some protection if things escalate. At best the police will direct the mental health crisis team her way (assuming your area has one) and perhaps initiate safe guarding. 

Sounds like you've done the right thing to me - let someone know something might be amiss. There is something called her support group, and they're going to get the message that you're worried.

I don't think there's anything you can or should do, other than what you've already done. From what you've said, there doesn't seem to be any immediate danger, this is some ongoing shit situation that you've just unhappily become aware of. 

I never actually took them as offensive "in that sense" - they were off the wall, and I took them as a response "as of I had been sending HER offensive messages", (and she was responding in kind, if that makes sense).

I'm more worried about her than offended..

The advice I'm giving comes from experience.  I'm well aware it sounds harsh, but by giving her your attention when she behaves like this you are going to make it worse not better. 

I get that you are worried.  It's hard not to be.  

IMO, if you do anything whatsoever you will do more harm than good. Maybe that sounds harsh to you, but you can't get away from it 

I can't say I have any particularly good advice, but I thought I'd reply with what I have and see if it is any good. If you know what her problem is ("Mental Health" covers a huge range of thing) I or someone else might be able to narrow it down a bit.

Firstly, it is important to realise that you can't take responsibility for someone else's mental health. It can be really tough to watch the wheels come off, even if it's someone you don't know very well. But that's not to say you should just block her either. There's usually a middle path.

The most important thing is to find someone who does know her well, who understands her a bit. They will know best what to say. It sounds like someone is on that, so that's great.

Edit: Having read the other posts that came up while I was writing this, I'm now not so confident that the advice below is a good fit for this case. See my later post.

If she rings you, you can answer, and talk. Maybe warn the missus if you plan to leave the phone on, don't risk problems there for this. If she's gone quiet then hopefully she might be asleep, and might stay that way until someone in her support group contacts her in the morning. If the problem is depression, sometime just talking about anything can help stop break the negative thought patterns for a while. Things to say:

• I was worried about you. 
• I'm not upset or offended by you contacting me or the messages you sent
• I'm looking forward to the gardening stuff
• I'm thinking of planting potatoes/soft fruit/the rain might be good for the ground
• I'm happy to listen/chat for a bit

Things not to say:

• It will sort itself out
• I know how you feel (unless you actually have had similar problems)
• Pull yourself together

For anxiety, I'm less sure, maybe similar things, but "it will all be OK" is a good thing to say - but refer to the cause of the anxiety not the anxiety itself.

If you are really concerned she might hurt herself before morning (and I don't think the texts you have quoted point to that) you could call the police, explain the problem, and ask if they could do a welfare check.

No idea at all what her problem is really, so few messages to go on before it went "weird".

Will see how it goes with her support group call tomorrow, and I'll try an update.

I'm wish i could just cut if off and let it go, but I can't for some reason.  I've kept the missus up to speed about it all.

It's just come from absolutely nowhere.

Listen thanks everyone for the feedback.  It's not been 100% what I've wanted or expected, but it's appreciated nonetheless.  I was not expecting to be in this situation this time last week !

I'll try and give an update as soon as I have one.

Telling her that he was worried about her is well meaning but potentially harmful dangerous advice.  It could cause her behaviour and mood to deteriorate, particularly if she gets over attached to him.  

It's not being an asshole to avoid further harm.  The first and most important principles of first aid from anyone who isn't medically trained is to protect yourself first and to do no harm.  

Lots of other responses while I was writing that.

The others are mostly of the opinion that this is attention-seeking. They could be right (in which case their advice is probably good). I personally have no direct experience of anyone with that type of issues.

My experience is more with people who are OK most of the time, but have occasional episodes of very deep dark depression and/or anxiety attacks, rarely lasting more than a few days.  I stand by my advice for those cases. The calling and "are you there" would fit this, but I guess the odd later messages less so, which would suggest the other posts might be more apt.

Edit to add: Even if you take the advice not to get involved at this point, I still take exception to the suggestions that you should block her and have no more to do with her. (I called wintertree an asshole for that earlier, but edited it out because it was a bit much. Not before marsbar saw it apparently). It sounds like you have had a normal (if not that long) interaction before this happened, so continuing that once she's back on her feet should be fine.  A person shouldn't be shunned because they had a mental health episode.

Maybe it's attention seeking.,  I'm more worried that it's someone who has got an ongoing medical issue who is suddenly in a different situation, no income, no means to buy medication, unbalanced further by social isolation etc.  I can't really sleep at the moment and I'm a bit stressed. argh

I take it she's still quiet since 10ish?

A few more one liners, me just telling her to get some sleep.  very subdued from her point of view.

I think then whether the other posters are right, or even if it is something more like what I initially thought, the outcome is much the same: She's going to have a shitty night. She's not in immediate danger. She'll get a call from someone with a much better idea of how to handle it in the morning. 

Time to let go of it, go to bed, and hope to hear good news in the morning.

The two situations are totally different, and need different responses. [1] physical emergency - you have to initiate a trip to a doctor for the sufferer (or A & E) by yourself. [2] in a mental one, any involvement can do far more harm than good - the situation should be left to the person's doctor / family / friends / support group

Edited to add, good luck, ThunderCat, I think you're a good person for caring about someone else to that extent

You're in canada aren't you? If it was here, I'd probably do something like try to get council or local charity involved or aware. Perhaps try to get the Samaritans to get in contact with her.

I think you did the right thing.

reach out to others around her. Once she’s angry at you I don’t think you can directly help her. Just try and get people to reach out, if concerned I’d contact the police.

it’s an awful time for people suffering in their own. Was she sober And getting help or still drinking? 

No worries.  Yes it sounds cruel but unless you know otherwise, I doubt you are able to do anything to help, and you are taking on great risk of all sorts of trouble by keeping communications open.  Other people have been in your situation and been unable to help.  I’m taking an extremal view here - but this person could expose you to all sorts of risks that could disrupt your life and those of people close to you.

Close - Manchester

Aye, no missed calls or messages this morning.  I'll give it a bit and check up on that mutual friend, see if she was able to make contact and get the lay of the land.

As others have said if she has serious mental health issues, unless you have specific training in dealing with this you are unlikely to be able to help. 

This sounds like she could have issues with schizophrenia and is very different from someone being depressed, where a friendly ear and knowing that people care could be beneficial.

Having contacted her support network of friends, leaving them to deal with it is probably best. If they know her well and are decent people they will be a lot better placed to help her. If they can't then certainly you won't be able to. It sounds like she needs serious help from professional bodies.

You are obviously a decent person with concern for others, but I don't see what you can do to help here and continued contact will only cause you more stress and worry without benefiting her.

I am entirely unqualified to give any sort of advice on your situation beyond the following:

- You're clearly a decent person, who sees someone in distress and wants to help.

- You aren't qualified to do much, and, if you try, you risk creating unpleasant consequences for yourself, those around you, and also the person you are trying to help.

- Critically, and I can't emphasise this too much, YOU HAVE ALREADY HELPED. You've told the people who know best what to do. If that's all you can do - and it probably is - then you've already done everything in your power to help. Don't beat yourself up about not being able to do anything else, you didn't create this situation and others are better placed to deal with it.

Contact you mental health team in the council and pass them all the details.  She may well be known to them (if she is on medication, almost 100% sure she will be known to them).  It is their responsibility to assess and act.  I would not block her yet, but if she carries on then I would and I would actually tell her what I had done.  If she does have a serious mental health problem then she might expect you to do this and would not be annoyed at you. If she doesn't have a serious problem, then that's a good thing so I wouldn't worry about her reaction to you.

The police most likely would do nothing.  A recent example at my work (more serious than yours), I called the police and they did nothing and they did not even tell me they had done nothing.

The council don’t have mental health teams, they are part of the NHS. As someone suggested above ask the police to do a welfare check because you are concerned about the possible risk.

A person may be be brought to the attention of there local mental health services but  the person can refuse contact or intervention. So if relatives or friends are expressing concern the mental health team would ask the police to do a welfare check. I had clients express suicidal ideation on the phone then tell me  they would not except a visit. So it’s over to the police who do have the power to intervene.

...'they are part of the NHS'  You are correct.  

When things of this nature crop up at my work, I have been told to ring the Multi Agency Safeguarding Hub, don't know if similar exists for Thundercat ???????

The council adult safeguarding team are in many areas the first port of call who take referrals and pass them to the appropriate place, nhs or otherwise.   

I would rather be an asshole to some, but one who prioritises keeping my family isolated from an alcoholic with abusive tendencies, than someone whose wish to do good brings the walls down.  Believe me, a situation like this can suddenly turn south on a pinhead and the fallout can be catastrophic.  But I have a duty of care to others over and above a stranger.  The difference with a first aid or rescue situation is that these just put me directly at risk in a way I would hopefully be confident to gauge, but the OPs situation risks brining drama into the wider household, for example a malicious allegation with regards child welfare.  

I have every sympathy for someone in that position, and I recognise that people don't end up there on purpose or by choice.  I am not however qualified to help and in interacting with an almost total stranger and trying to help at best I don't make it worse, at worst I make it worse for them and/or invite false allegations or abuse into my household and my family.  

The one addendum to my OP - if I had reason to believe this person was at risk from self harm or was posing a risk to others I would contact the police.  It may be that there are more appropriate contacts. 

If you felt genuinely concerned for their immediate welfare due to a mental health crises it would be similar to if you think someone is immobilised with a broken leg (to use your example) - you phone the emergency services, tell them what you know and make it their call.

I wouldn't have thought this was the case from your OP, either severely pissed or having an episode of  schizophrenia or some delusional psychosis.  If you knew them and they had chosen to share their GP or caseworker details with you, perhaps you could have phoned them to try and get them out, but I've no idea on if that's allowable by privacy rules etc.

Hi Thundercat,

Just wanted to pop a reply over from the perspective of a psychologist working in adult mental health. The advice you've had already is pretty sound to be honest. If you think there are risks then police, adult safeguarding, or local CMHT can be contacted. If no evident risks (which is what it sounds like) then contacting a mutual friend was a good shout.

I would agree with those saying "don't get more involved". Were it someone you knew well I might be saying something different. It sounds heartless, but the reality is that you risk getting sucked into a fairly complex situation and if the behaviour were to escalate it could become more and more difficult to step back. If there are indeed mental health difficulties at play then (unless there are very serious risk/capacity issues) she needs to be the one to accept help. If her existing support networks are pulling back because of her responses to them then it sounds like she isn't at a point where she is ready to accept help. You getting more involved risks a) putting yourself in a very difficult situation, b) inadvertently reinforcing the very same behaviours you are worried about ("I'm alone but when I treat people like this then I get their time, attention and support so maybe I should do that more"), and c) making it much harder for you to step back if things escalate ("he's not talking to me as much so maybe I need to do something more extreme to get his attention next time").

I know it's not the advice you were looking for, but it isn't your responsibility and you stand to make the situation worse for both her and for yourself if it isn't handled carefully. If you wanted to send her a courtesy message you could perhaps just explain why you are uncomfortable with the messages sent and why you don't feel comfortable continuing the conversations any further. But beyond that and the steps you've already taken I would honestly walk away. I've just run your situation past my partner (also a psychologist) for a second opinion, and she came to the same conclusion.

Totally agree. I'm not especially brave but I'd rather talk down a stranger with a knife than get entangled with a casual acquaintance with mental health issues of unknown severity and a new found liking for sending me abusive messages.

Just for reference, yes you can call someone's GP or mental health team to pass on information if you ever needed to. They just can't pass any information to you. So you might get a slightly guarded "I can't tell you if we know this person", but you can tell them what you know and they will act on it if appropriate.

Quite.   Add in the extra dimension that we are talking about a female sending concerning messages to a man who is already in a relationship and it has all the ingredients for an unpleasant ending.  

Bold diagnosis.....

It wasn't meant as a diagnosis just a possibility given the detail in the original post. Could possibly be just related to heavy drinking, again not a diagnosis just a possibility.

Whatever the cause, delusional thinking as pretty clearly laid out in the op isn't usually something  that can be reasoned with. At least if it is just drink related you might be able to get through to them when sober.

I think it's laudable that the OP is trying to help and I think in general more Frank and open discussion about mental health is a good thing. 

What I'm don't think is a good thing is hazarding wild guesses of possible diagnosis based on limited and second hand information. Particularly given this person being discussed has no idea she is having her (possible) condition being analysed  on a random forum of a website she probably has never heard of! 

Speaking from experience, I had a similar problem a few years ago. This was with a guy who worked for me.

I knew that he had health issues and also that he was an alcoholic.

I had to suspend him for an unrelated reason and he started sending me racist and abusive texts ( over 500 in total )

I went to see the police and made it very clear that I was worried about his well being.

They paid him a visit and asked him to stop but also put him in touch with the local crisis team .

My biggest concern was that my daughter worked in a coffee shop literally round the corner from his flat and he knew this.

He stopped for one night then the texts started again so he had another visit from the police.

He ended up being charged, fined , suspended jail sentence and a 5 year restraining order.

So my advice?

Leave well alone

Reasonable points,

I don't want to sidetrack this thread that has contained a lot of well intentioned, interesting and hopefully useful posts.

I never quite got to the point of sending angry messages to people at my lowest pointwhen they didn't respond but I definitely felt feelings of "fine, **** you" if I was trying to speak to someone and they didn't respond (my mother was/ is a "dry drunk" and I was extensively abused as a child). This was the result of my abandonment issues.

It's entirely normal/ human to want to help when you see someone in a downward spiral but getting involved can lead to a really nasty toxic relationship (in the series of interactions between people sense, not the romantic one). You have contacted her support group who know her wider history, that was the right thing to do. If they have been involved with her for a long time it might be worth pointing them at Al-Anon (like AA but for friends and families of people who exhibit problematic drinking) or a SMART Recovery Friends and Family meeting as these are both really helpful for people in this situation (SMART is more psychoeducation focused while Al-Anon is more spiritual).

She's either a terrible person, or she's very ill. If it's the latter it sounds like she is heading toward rock bottom, once recovery becomes easier than carrying on she will have a choice to make. In some ways having a support group can prolong the duration of the pain.

I’ve just seen this thread for the first time and read through it all. I have little to add apart from joining in with those who point out that you have tried to help but you are (presumably) not trained in dealing with clinical mental health issues and this has escalated to a point where you are out of your depth....which means that if you did go down the route of blocking all contact, it would not be callous or un-Christian, especially if you help to arrange a visit from mental health professionals (or even a welfare visit from police) as others have suggested. 
Over the past two decades I have ceased all contact with a number of acquaintances who were displaying mental health issues. I was only an acquaintance and I know they had people closer to them who would help. All I was, was sounding-board or target for ever increasingly “negative” tirades. I have no regrets about dropping these people. There was one in particular who was so bad that after I dropped her, I noticed that I very quickly started feeling happier and more relaxed in everyday life. You don’t realise how much these things creep up on you and build up. Take care of yourself. Hope this helps a little 

Well I've opened up a few lines of communication with several people around the area who know her in the "real" sense, rather than just fleetingly via Facebook. I think this is a regular thing from what they're saying. She sounds like a nice person, who has very severe mood swings from time to time...I'm not sure if she's on meds and isn't taking them, or just hasnt had a professional diagnosis yet. They've organised food bank packages for her and engaged with her, but she is extremely hard work with everyone when she is on a low mood swing. So I'm happy she's not alone.

So I've told this group of friends that I'm happy to help them support her, but yeah, I'm not going to engage with her directly again. Massively stressed me out when it all kicked off the other night and I tend to go into worse case scenario mode when this type of thing occurs.

Appreciate all the input and insight everyone has offered. 

Been in a simple situation more than once and it can actually be a kindness to block and remove yourself. Some ill people are simply looking for a trigger or focus for their woes. It's better if you're not it. Hopefully closer friends will be doing the hard yards, but like in first aid the first check is to keep yourself safe.

Slightly related tangent, this has reminded me of the year I spent sub-letting a room in a flat occupied by a woman who was, to put it kindly, "cut from a very different cloth to me and my straight-laced peer group" (to put it less kindly, she was quite odd and neurotic). Over time, I realised that she was by far the least crazy person in her entire social and family circle, and my encounters with her social and family circle made me think that I could easily be dragged into that vortex of craziness. I left, intact, and it is the only time I have ever moved out of a house sharing situation SOLELY because of another occupant. 

It's a credit to you how concerned you were/are. I've been 'sucked into the vortex' of a couple of people with mental health issues, and it can be a tricky thing to manage. If you don't know one another in real life there's little to be gained by engaging with her anymore and worrying yourself. 

Edit: Obviously not all people with mental health issues are difficult, I know somebody with borderline personality disorder who's one of the most agreeable people I know, but you own peace of mind comes first.

That's really wise about enabling. The narcissistic friend I used to have who cut ties over nothing and owes me £250 seems to have friends who put up with/enable her. People seem to fall into the camp who won't put up with it, or those who put it down to whatever issue. It's hard not to think that if more people didn't, such people mightn't take the piss as much. At least I know how to spot a covert narcissist now, but it's annoying.

Nice one. You’ve made a really solid effort to help, while balancing your concern for her against your own wellbeing. You’ve done a good thing and it sounds like you’ve handled the situation with a lot of compassion.