UKC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/5287664.stm

In which other country, other than NI, would this happen? It's totally embarrassing, and makes you despair about the 18C timewarp some people seem to be forever stuck in.

I despise both the OF, but who the feck would be so backward that they felt the need to report Boruc to the police??

In reply to wcdave: that link sends me to AOL member search????

In reply to wcdave:

Can't remember where exactly I saw it, but I saw something recenty suggesting that both Celtic and Rangers should pull out of the Scottish Premier League and re-locate to Eire/Nothern Ireland (whichever is appropriate)

In reply to wcdave: found it. must be very sensitive those rangers fans

In reply to Fawksey: Was the ref a 'Mason'?

In reply to Dominion: It was Mr McRant!

In reply to Fawksey:


Your average Old Firm religious bigot:

http://leaguefreak.playiirl.com/images/Missing%20Link.jpg

They are indeed very sensitive. One might even say 'special'.

Andy

In reply to wcdave: so why exactly do you despise Celtic?

In reply to Erik B:

Or Rangers for that matter.

In reply to Marc C:

That was it! About how all the "national" flags in the stadium were Irish tricolours or something...

In reply to wcdave: boruc did more than just bless himself, he wound up the rangers crowd behind the goal, several hun colleugues witnessed it. However, im sure he was provoked. so its not quite as clear as the media are making out.

In reply to Mac Ghille Aindrais: I will lay my Scottish football supporting cards on the table. Never liked Celtic as I dont like Irish flags and IRA songs. Never liked Rangers for the same but obviousley opposite reasons.

When living in Edinburgh I went to a Hibs Hearts match with some Hearts fans. The bigotry was at least a wee bit upmarket. Thankfully now as my son comes from and lives in Gretna I can follow them, though not in Europe alas. My "other" team is Leeds but unfortunately the least said the better!

In reply to Erik B:
several hun colleugues witnessed it. However, im sure he was provoked. so its not quite as clear as the media are making out.

Isn't that a bit biggoted too?Calling some "Hun"?

In reply to wcdave: Could only happen in Scotland or N Ireland, foreign players bless themselves regularly in the premiership. I still dont think it is as bad as Gazza when he took time off from battering his missus to play the flute at Celtic park.

In reply to Dominion: and what is wrong with some celtic supporters waving irish tri coulours?

In reply to Erik B: Why?? I hate all the religious bigotry that accompanies them both Erik.

As for Boruc...he did the same at Inverness last week, it didn't seem to bother anyone at all. Nor have I heard about it provoking any other teams fans either.

In reply to Fawksey: The Irishness of Celtic fans is fine, after all, that's where their roots are. The Union Jack waving of Rangers on the other hand is disgusting, and is often used as nothing more than provocation.

In reply to Erik B:

It's wrong and just as offensive as Rangers supporters waving the union flag.

both sets of flags should be confiscated IMHO.

In reply to Fawksey: do you dislike Ireland? do you think its wrong for people to sing about historical events which celebrate the fight against extreme oppression and which DONT attack peoples faiths?


do you like the anthem God save the Queen? have you ever heard/sang the full version?

99% of celtic songs are folk songs, no different from many scottish folk songs

should we ban the flower of scotland?

In reply to Fawksey:


I used to support Inverness Thistle. I live about 500m from where the ground used to be and have always lived in this area. My uncle used to own the offical Inverness Thistle pub (The Corriegarth) and I used to go to all their games with my brother and then later my mates. They amalgamated with the scum from over the river a few years ago and tore down the classic Thistle Park and put up old folks homes! ;( I have never been to the new stadium and never will.

I am a bigot but not a religious one so that is ok...

Andy

In reply to wcdave: I dont find the waving of the union jack as offensive in the slightest, if people feel british then let them fly their flag.

In reply to Jason Kirk:

you are talking absolute nonsense, what next? no free thought allowed at football matches?

In reply to Mac Ghille Aindrais: I agree with you, amalgmating those clubs was out of order

In reply to Erik B: You know as well as I do Erik that the waving of the UJ, and singing of Rule Brittania by Rangers fans does nothing but wind up opposition fans(in Scotland). Why don't Rangers fans display a similar amount of pride in their Scottishness??

In reply to wcdave: If I said I would rather wear a turban than a sash. Would I be classed as a racist or a bigot?

In reply to wcdave:

That's effing ridiculous.

If you can tolerate bhoys waving a tricolor then the blues should be able to wave a union jack.

Unionism is not a bigoted viewpoint, but a valid expression of political will in the same way as republicanism. They both have dodgy adherents but thay are both inherently deeply held ideals o dfthe state of the U.K. and Eire

In reply to 2pints:


Of course it is but this is the kind of thing us non old-infirm supporting Scots have to put up with on a daily basis. I think this "hun" and "tim" nonsense is supposed to be funny or something. I don't get it myself. Most of them don't even understand the history and couldn't tell you where the river Boyne is never mind its significance in history...

Andy

In reply to wcdave: there is a minority of celtic supporters who are bigoted, the reality though is that celtic supporters are made up from many religious and cultural backgrounds, its one of the big myths of scottish football thats its a catholic only support.

In reply to Erik B:

How about banning faith schools and making all children in Scotland go to the same schools and hopefully in a generation or two there will be no bigotry.

In reply to wcdave: I would have thought that the flag waving of both comes from exactly the same place in each of their hearts. I wouldnt find either side offensive in their passion of whom they are if only the hatred was lost.

As an Englishmen with Scottish connections I have had first hand experience of not being liked both north and south of the Irish border and therefore dislike songs about the PIRA

In reply to wcdave: sad indeed especially when they are supposed to be banishing bigotry to gutter it belongs in, along come the police and pander to it....

....ooops, I forgot about their tendencies towards the masonic blue side of the fence.

I actually saw 2 kids walking down the street the other day, one in a rangers top and the other in a celtic top and was pleasantly surprised though neither of their bucky swiggin parents were anywhere to be seen. probably at the offy, hargh hargh.

I wish they would go to another league and so do their fans (I assume) so it would be a win win for Scottish fitba.

In reply to wcdave: ffs man, its all part of watching football winding up the other supporters!

now, what i really object to is the problems after games, eg allowing small orange marches down high street past well know celtic pubs after a celtic home game, now there is something seriously wrong with the scottish establishment if they continue to sign off and allow these blatantly inflamatory and very dangerous marches.

In reply to yer maw:

in the long run!

In reply to Jason Kirk: what right have you to suggest that? if its not that type of bigotry it will be something else

In reply to wcdave: I think the turban would be more practical for climbing and riding a motorbike, although a sash could improvise as a bandolier, extender, or even a prussik.

In reply to Erik B:


Manchester United and Manchester City

Liverpool and Everton

Newcastle and Sunderland

Arsenal and Tottenham

Don't need religious bigotry so why do Rangers and Celtic?

Andy

In reply to Erik B:

Every right. I happen to believe that bigotry is learned from elders and having two sets of schools in towns around Glasgow ( Protestant and Catholic) is counter productive and does not help matters.

Religion causes more problems than it has ever solved.

In reply to Jason Kirk: why dont you ban religion then? then we can live in a nice cosy perfect world

In reply to Erik B: There's winding up, and there's deliberate provocation. Singing Rule Britnnia, and that stupid fecking band bashing out the Dambusters theme repeatedly, is cringeworthy. If I wanted to listen to 50,000 people singing those songs I'd tune into the Proms every year. I hate the Proms too.

As I said, why don't Rangers fans show the same degree as passion towards their Scottishness??

In reply to yer maw:



aye, so as usual its a glasgow only problem then is it?

In reply to wcdave: Having served in NI, I found both sides as bad as each other. The loyalists cling on to the Britishness, terrified they become part of Eire, but when things dont go their way as in Drumcree, they are quite happy to through petrol bombs at British troops.

In reply to wcdave: Ive got no idea, because they are total bawsacks?

In reply to TWINKLETOES: to be honest I blame a lot of the problems at ibrox on the large numbers of folk who travel across the sea for the games.

In reply to Jason Kirk: There is some statistics that say over 95% of catholic children in N Ireland go to a catholic school and that over 95% of protestant children go to a protestant school. I am not suprised that the bigotry continues when its instilled throughout their formative years.

Its time in my opinion for all schools to be secular and for people to get their religeous schooling at a church of their choice outside of school.

There are people round here having their children christened in the catholic faith so that they can go to a catholic school and not to one "full of Pakis"

In reply to Erik B:

religion is fine but not in schools. As for banning it I don't think I would need to. How many people actually bother to go to church anymore. The only reason they think they are Catholic or Protestant is because of the school they went to not because of their faith,

In reply to Fawksey: interestingly many asians in glasgow send their kids to Catholic schools

In reply to Fawksey:

which is not much better. Where else in the world will you get a pakistani with a Glasgow accent.

In reply to Jason Kirk: do you live in glasgow? I know many practising catholics in their 20's and above

In reply to Erik B: it's a predominantly (but not exclusive)west coast problem which doesn't exist with other teams.

so would you prefer another league?

In reply to Erik B: my wife stopped being one when the pope stopped recognising our marriage!

In reply to Erik B:

No but I have relatives nearby. The bigotry is only really found in the west of Scotland from Glasgow across through into Ayrshire is really not a nice part of the culture.

My Grandparents lived in Kirkintilloch and their next door neighbours were Catholic as were many people round about. at that time even when the troubles ewere going on in N. Ireland it never caused any problems but I still think children should be taught at schools were religion is not the main selecting factor. If you feel differently then we will have to agree to differ.

In reply to Jason Kirk: I think there are strong plus points about catholic education as well as negatives, the scottish comprehensive 'sink or swim' education system is definitely not the solution

In reply to Erik B:


Yes some of them do here too. Not sure if its because its a better school or if they are part of the small percentage of catholic asians. They are certainly taking the trouble to ensure their children go as the local catholic school will not accept children not christened as catholics.

In reply to Erik B:

Do you know anyone that lives in the borders. they seem to have a very good education system that is not segregated.

In reply to yer maw: have you ever witnessed hearts supporters at celtic park? they are worse than rangers supporters

if you think religious bigotry is a west coast (ie west central scotland) only prolem then I am afraid you are delusional, ever been to the hebrides?

In reply to Jason Kirk: eh?!

In reply to 2pints:


no, its a nickname in glasgow for a rangers supporter just like tim is used for a celtic supporter

In reply to Erik B:


I think a large number of them travel up from Bolton now

In reply to Erik B: the jambos do it only at celtic games though. as you said earlier it's a wind up.

yes to have I been and the hebrides are on another planet when it comes to religeous rights and wrongs.

In reply to Fawksey: I was working at a motherwell rangers game, the ref made a decision which went motherwell's way, the chant from the gers fans was 'who's the fenian in the black'.
Its sad.

In reply to wcdave: I live a stone's throw from Hib's Easter Road stadium. I despair when they have a big game on and see junior thugs, just young kids, learning to hate the opposition and spit on someone wearing a different football shirt. Properly messed up state of affairs.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

The same thing happens in London just go to a Spurs Arsenal game and feel the hate.

In reply to yer maw: travelling down from North Uist to Benbecula we picked up an old man on the road who had been for a drink somewhere (I know not where) and went into a tirade against the catholic church on Barra and South Uist.

He reckoned priests were nowt but protectors of wife beaters!

In reply to Barry Chocolate: used to sell programmes at East End Park before moving onto the turnstiles and crowd stewarding. had to give a bear 18 50p pieces because he wouldn't take green pound notes. I always kept the big notes for easier counting at the end.

did the tunrnstiles when pars put rangers out of scottish cup in the souness era which was class. stewarded a gers game when they beat us 4-0 and still felt very unsafe, whereas never felt in any danger during celtic games including those rare occasions we got a result.

stewarded the away fans for everton when a student in liverpool and only ever felt danger against sunderland whose fans were nutters. the rest were no bother and not a religeous song amongst them.

In reply to Fawksey: then there's the lassies. got to know loads of them at Kirkcaldy tech where they came to from there for some reason I could never fathom.

still good friends with some.

In reply to wcdave:


This thread was interesting until I read this $hite Dave!

The Ent

In reply to Erik B:

I've got to say Erik, speaking as a totally objective (Glaswegian) bystander.....based on your posts on this thread, you are coming over as a bit of a bigot. I'm saying that as someone who has a slight, passing interest in football, and none whatsoever in religion.

The OF teams and their supporters depress me greatly.

In reply to Fraser: I very nearly suggested the same a few posts back but didnt want to.

In reply to wcdave: The OF and their supporters are a cancer of Scottish football, and the sooner they sod off elsewhere, the better.

In reply to Enty:


Why? I see no reason why Rangers fans feel the need to display their Britishness(or Englishness as some would say) so much. They do it for no other reason than they KNOW it'll cause a reaction amongst the opposition fans. It always does.

In reply to Fraser:


It is a minority though on both sides. Seems to me that the rangers minority is slightly larger though.

That said, I think things are generally getting better.

The simplistic interpretation though of Union Flags = a celebration of Britishness is way off the mark. What doesn't GB Brown support Rangers then?

In reply to wcdave: I would have thought they show their Britishness for exactly the same reason Celtic fans show their Irishness.

I mean when Celtic play Burnley and show their flags and colours they aint letting each other know who they are, they bloody well know already, they are telling Burnley who they are!

In reply to Fawksey:

I'm not sure though that Rangers fans are celebrating Britishness. Probably more likely some events which were related to Britain and define them by who they aren't.

In reply to Donald M: Hearing the vast majority of the crowd singing Rule Brittania and GSTQ at Ibrox on several occasions doesn't suggest it's just a minority Donald.

Why do the Union flags outnumber the Saltires by a very large number amongst Rangers supporters?

In reply to Donald M: Sorry Donald, lateness of the hour, red wine etc but i dont understand your second statement. Are you suggesting Scots and specifically those who support Rangers arent British?

In reply to wcdave:

Like I said, because it's tribalism. The acid test comes when the OF play abroad and you often see more tricolours and Union Flags.

The point I am making is that the British symbols shown are not a celebration of Britishness but more their association with certain events is what is being celebrated.

In reply to Fawksey:

No, but I don't believe that the Union flags etc and otherwise are related to the British state or even Britain in it's current state.

In reply to Donald M: Now Im not suggesting you are wrong but (sorry youre having to dumb this down for me)are you implying that Scots and specifically those that support rangers fly Union Jacks to annoy Celtic fans of Irish heritage and that really those Scots dont have any afinity with the Union?

Any rangers fans care to comment?

In reply to Fawksey: To a degree I agree with Donald's comments, but I'd then question why they then feel the need to repeat the 'ritual' at every other ground in Scotland?

In reply to wcdave:
Rubbish, rubbish rubbish!!!!!!
No difference whatsoever!

The Ent

In reply to Fawksey:

no i'm not saying that either. More that it is a an extremely complicated identity / anti-indentity statement. The phenomena (sp) of the 90 minute bigot is well known also.

It's a gang / we're not who you are / I have no way of expressing myself other than clinging onto some silly sect / let me annoy you - complex set of reasons. IMHO

In reply to wcdave:

Many people with little to say find the a cause who will say something for them, regardless of what it is or why they think they should take part, very attractive.

In reply to Donald M: And Rangers fans do this but not Celtic?

I think this may happen in all walks of life though maybe without the bitterness shown between the OF. There are people in here whom if I met them in the Clachaig after a few routes in Glencoe we may very well buy each other a beer and chew the fat amiably. However we may we wish to rip each others throats out whilst discussing the problems facing the middle east.

In reply to Fawksey:

Did I say Celtic fans didn't do it? Am I a terrorist if I disagree with John Reid?

In reply to Donald M: Hey dont get so tetchy! I was trying to get a clear picture not put words in your mouth.

In reply to yer maw: When was this this? As a Sunderland fan I would obviously agree we are all nutters but only due to our blind optimism. I don't make it to a lot of games but have never seen any gnarl at games including when we got hammered 5-0 at Goodison on Boxing Day a few years ago - I was in the Everton end and we got applauded by the Toffee fans for our blind optimism even when we were 5-0 down.

Granted there is gnarl at the derbies (morons) which only goes to prove that the idiots will find some excuse other than religion/sectarianism if they want hassle.

In reply to GraemeA at home: Being a Leeds fan I am grateful for Sunderland in showing me that things could be worse.

In reply to Fawksey: Three words mate




















Nineteen































Seventy











































Three

In reply to GraemeA at home: not a lot I can say to that! I cried.

If we win tomorrow and you lose you do realise I will be coming back to give a little!

In reply to Fawksey:

I was 9, I watched it at a family friends house on a colour TV (rare back then) and then my folks took us out for a keebab (also rare back then) and then I watched the open top parade next day. It was great. Sorry to bring back the bad memories for you but obviously it's all we SAFC fans have to cling to

We don't play (if that is the correct phrase at the moment) until Monday so you will have to wait. But I am always happy to trade footie insults even though it is getting harder as a SAFC fan these days.

Ps I did rejoice heartily the day you won the Premiership but mainly because you stopped the Scum from winning it.

In reply to Fraser:

how can I possibly be a bigot when I dont believe in any religion? Ive been stating things as I see it, and i feel I am able to as I am closer to the problem than most.

of the following songs which do you find the more offensive
'boys of the old brigade' or 'we'll never be mastered by a fenian bastard' (this latter song was sung very loudly recently on a live setanta tv game)

perhaps Im biased of course, but I feel that there is a huge gulf of difference between political expression and sectarianism and that the two should not be confused as being the same

In reply to Erik B:

Well said Erik, I'd add that there is a huge difference, a fundamental one, between sectariansim and religious faith.

In reply to Erik B:

I don't know either of the songs you mention, so can't comment, but I'd disagree that you don't have to "be religious" to be a bigot. I was really just saying how you were coming over (IMO) on this particular thread, that's all. Clearly, I wasn't the only one to feel this.

I would however share your opinion on 'the difference between political expression and sectarianism'. Unfortunately, one is often the excuse for the other.

In reply to wcdave:

Now if the police issue a caution in this case they are going to be very busy searching all the old TV sports programmes to do the same to all the athletes who do the same at the start of a race.
The person issuing the caution could also be in trouble for religous intolerance, and end up with a caution, or losing their job, or prosecuted.

Do they allow Muslims to pray in Scotland?

He's been issued with a formal caution for a breach of the peace. I assume the inference is that he was aware of the potentially provocative overtones of what he was doing, and maybe was doing it as a deliberate wind-up. Quite how you could prove that is beyond me, however. Do they get instructed not to cross themselves? Bizarre situation.

In reply to Steve Parker:

Some of those Poles are very religous, I was given notice in my bed sitter once for having meat on a Friday. Nice people and would not have done it if I had known it would upset them.

In reply to sutty:

I guess the question is was he doing it religiously or as deliberate provocation? The police obviously decided the latter.

In reply to Fraser: i take great offence to you calling me a bigot, please explain where in this debate that I am a bigot

In reply to wcdave:

I'd say the majority of OF fans are decent folk but the clubs still act as rallying points for the bigots and nutters on both sides of the UK's religious divide. The only reason you don't see as many Celtic thugs as Rangers ones is that there are more Protestants in Scotland than Catholics.

Neither the flags nor many of the songs are contentious on their own but do nothing but stir up trouble in the context of a Scottish football match.

Politics and religion should be thrown out of sport in my opinion they have no place in it but to stir up trouble and keep the fires of hatred burning. I also find it utterly ridiculous that religious bigots continue to follow these teams when the make up of the teams themselves no longer reflects any religious affiliation. The clubs themselves could take a much more agressive position on the attitude these characters in my opinion.

I am generally suspicious of any social engineering iniatives that are launched by Governments but I make an exception to the Scottish executive's attempts to drive bigotry out of Scotland. Good on them, I'd like to see a ban on all flags other than the team ones at all football matches.

In reply to Jason Kirk:

The problem isn't faith schools it's the Scottish Constitution...

I can't recall the exact act or clause, but it is still illegal for a Catholic to recieve state funding in Scotland. This has many implications for inculsion. The faith schools exist because equal funding and equal representation were not historically possible.

The clause should be repealed, it's a dirty little throwback to a different time when the RC Church influenced national politics and needed controlling and conversely when Catholics were martyred in Scotaland for adhering to their faith.

Nowadays for a nation to differentiate between denominations in any way is unacceptable and hypocritical when condemning bigotry on either side.

In reply to wcdave:

I generally find most Scottish people to be inherently racist anyway...

WE LOVE YOU!

In reply to The Crow:

See:

http://news.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=532642006

"Scotland has 440 state-funded faith schools, of which 411 are Roman Catholic, four Episcopalian and one Jewish. The remaining 24 are special schools of various Christian denominations."

Seems like the catholics do very well actually.

In reply to GraemeA at home:

around 1995. had dealt with west ham, millwall, plus any big club you care to mention and I'm afraid the Sunderland fans were the only ones I had to get to cops to deal with. they won the game 2-0 as well. maybe just a bad mix of travelling fans that day.

In reply to wcdave: Aside from the religous issues this trend of fans reporting players to police for "incitment" is pathetic, it's happening in the EPL aswell. They should be able to take a bit of banter, or tolerate the customs of a foreign player.

In reply to The Crow:

What on earth are you talking about? Are you meaning the act of settlement?

Presuming you what you say is true, why is the state funding Catholic education?

In reply to Donald M:

I read it in the paper some time a go and looked up the Act and paragraph in question...

I've now forgotten which bloody act. *I should also have made myself clearer in that although it is still current law it is not enacted nowadays*.

It was IIRC the reason for the great number of private catholic schools set up in Scotland.

You'll have to bear with me while I try and find the detail... Sorry to be so vague for now.

In reply to The Crow:

I could be wring, but I have never actually heard of a "great number" of catholic schools in Scotland.

The other flaw in your argument is that Scotland doesn't have a constitution.

In reply to Mac Ghille Aindrais:



When I was a kid (In Liverpool) I remember seeing both Liverpool and Everton fans wearing hats that were bi-club - on one side was Everton/Liverpool and on the other Celtic/Rangers. These were based on religious allegiances to their clubs. Liverpool was split into (In a very general way) Catholics
supporting Everton and Protestans supporting Liverpool.

In reply to Fishtrumpet:



This is quite true. When I was a kid supporting Everton I recall the Irish tricolours being flown at derby matches with Liverpool fans waving the Union Jack. Liverpool's Anfield stadium was in the heart of a protestant area with Orange Lodge marches every weekend.

Strangely enough,Liverpool appear to have developed a 'special relationship' with Celtic now with both fans singing 'you'll never walk alone'.

Goes to show. The old religious affinities have become redundant on Merseyside thank God.

Can't see that ever being the case in Glasgow !

In reply to Jonno:

what is even more amusing is all the Rangers/ Celtic fans who because of Celtic's modern links with Liverpool and Rangers links with Everton (Duncan Ferguson, Walter Smith and of course the colour blue), they believe this is a common religeous link where Everton must be protestant and Liverpool catholics.

The amount of times I've had to explain it's the opposite and that their allegiance to those teams because of myph is wrong has given me a lot of pleasurable banter. This is not withstanding what you said that religeon isn't really an issue either makes the wee saddoes call me a bare faced liar, such is the depth of theor bigotry.

great result for the toffees yesterday and I'm optomistic for the season ahead.

In reply to wcdave:
More importantly in football terms - Artur Boric gets reported to the polis for blessing himself - An English "footballer" called Thatcher nearly kills a player and gets a yellow card!-
I'll keep watching shinty, thanks very much!

In reply to yer maw:


Indeed. They look like serious contenders for a top 4 place with the new recruits...Howard,Lescott and Johnson...adding to the quality of people like Cahill,Arteta and the vastly under-rated Osman.

Fancy them to do Liverpool in a couple of weeks.

In reply to Removed User:

In reply to Jonno: Think it was the same in Manchester - Utd were supposed to be catholic and city protestant, but utterly redundant now.