UKC

It seems that I owe an apology to Alkis and to multiple dislikers, regarding a comment I made on this archived thread
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/drive_randomly_filling_up_it_nu...

I had always thought the phrase "you can thank me later" was ALWAYS loaded with snark, presumption, sarcasm etc. because I had only ever seen it used that way. 

Apparently this is not the case. 

Every day's a school day. 


edit - for the avoidance of misinterpretation of the word "seems", in my opening sentence, I do hereby apologise to Alkis and to multiple dislikers. 
 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

You thought it was PA, others didn't. HTH

In reply to Pedro50:

What is "PA"? If you tell me now, I can thank you later!

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Passive aggressive LOL 

In reply to Pedro50:

Thanks! Pedro50 FTW

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I honestly don't even know what passive aggressive means. I've only learned about virtue signalling since the virus. Dog whistle, straw man, whataboutery - are other phrases I've only come across since joining UKC.

I'm fairly well educated, fairly well read in a variety of modern English literature but at some point I've missed out on some seemingly vital phrases in online discussion. It's not as if I stop at home and go to bed at 8 every night, but my social circle doesn't have a lot in common with the UKC demographic.

Anyway I would have taken you can thank me later at face value but I'm a bit suspicious about there being  something hidden when people say fixed that for you. Any help appreciated.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Virtue-signalling is a very handy phrase for something that has existed for a long time without a well known shorthand.

I remember you on here describing whataboutery as a "shit made-up word" (I think that's verbatim) and I hadn't heard of it, so I looked it up and found it to be a very useful work with a solid non-ambiguous application. 

And a month or so ago, most of the UKC collective refused to believe that I didn't know what "see you next Tuesday" meant! 

I still always need to check what "straw man" means, I know it's well established but I only really see it used on these forums (ditto "ad hominen attack" which I think is equally overused on here). 

I had never seen the word "outwith" used, until a few years when I saw it increasingly used here (arguably overused). 

I always thought that calling the police "polis" was Scots slang, derogatory and implying that the user had an ongoing grievance with the police, but it seems to be used willy nilly on here. 

What is "dog whistle"?

I too consider myself well educated and broad minded, maybe not as well read as I could be though. Yet I seem to be behind on some of these phrases, and I am much younger than you. 

edit - it took me YEARS of confusion (culminating in having to ask A Young Person), to realise that FTW did not mean what it briefly meant in the early 90s! 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

outwith was a word I first heard (and noticed, being very interested in language and usage) used very very often in Scotland, Wester Ross in 1983 onwards.   Part of the interesting Scottish usages which I found fascinatingly different in those years I spent up there.

Polis is NE English usage for the police (since the 60s - I heard it used in my father's office) but since the advent of Scandi-Crimi/Noir I now know that it has Nordic origins

How about Shitaboutery as a word?  I just made it up, rather good, dunno if exists()

In reply to wercat:

Yes I meant to say in my post that I had absorbed that it was a Scottish term but have seen it increasingly used on here by many posters who I believe are not Scottish, and - quite irrationally I know - it always comes across to me as a bit "affected" in those cases. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

More broadly, it is something that seems innocent to the wider public, and is only fully understood by a select group, although as usual this seems to be loosening with time

Generally it is used politically especially with regard to Race, Religion or Immigration.

A perfect example from Andrew Pierce (Daily Mail) this week: "If families gather for holy month of Ramadan will there be a huge spike in Covid cases. Doctors are very worried"

Of course this can be defended as a perfectly innocent statement, but is clearly anti Muslim by a) implying they wouldn't care and would gather anyway, despite all Mosques being shut b) omitting any other religious group (notably christians who have in a number of cases insisted on gathering for Easter

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/dog-whistle-political-meaning

In reply to balmybaldwin:

Interesting, it's almost like it's somewhere between "loaded" and "disingenuous"

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I've noticed Gauleiter being used increasingly since various lockdowns. THAT seems to be an affectation. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Blue Straggler. "You can thank me later." If used in a forum like this could be mildly sarcastic with no harm meant if discussion is friendly. However, if discussion is heated I would see its use as intended to provoke. I might use this phrase while speaking to a friend [or my wife] as a joke and it would be taken as such. [I hope!]

"See you next Tuesday." I saw the thread in which you got some stick for using this phrase. To me it was simply saying that the person who said he was leaving the forum would be back. I was totally unaware of it being in common use as a form of insult.

"FTW" - A new one to me.

"Outwith."You've got me thinking here. I honestly don't know if I use this word a lot, occasionally, or not at all.

"Polis". I live Scotland. I tend to use "polis" in a jokey sense. EG. If a pal said he liked a band which I disliked I might say "Send for the polis."

Tom V. "Fixed that for you" would annoy me.

"Dog whistle." New one to me.

I have never fully understood "passive aggressive" and "straw man" argument.

"Virtue signalling." To me this something we all do to a greater or lesser degree. I certainly like to be seen to be doing the "right thing."

"Whataboutery" ["Whitabootery" in Scotland] is often used unfairly. I admit to doing this on occasion. It is a legitimate way of countering an argument by exposing hypocrisy / double standards.

 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I was under the impression that polis is simply  the Scottish language version of police and has no connotations either way. 

Just had a look, Phoilis is the Gaelic version.  

In reply to Blue Straggler:

it strikes me that it is an inversion of the old fashioned use of "without" meaning "outside" as in the old Hymn "There is a greeen hill far away, without a city wall".

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Glad to see that a  much younger person like you isn't completely au fait with the linguistic trends. I do look up these phrases but don't store them in the useful part of my vocabulary.

Yes, I forgot outwith but I think i worked that one out. FTW is new to me, as is Gauletier , as was the furore over see you next Tuesday.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

it's a word I've used since reading a lot about the nazi era at school and afterwards - it very aptly summarises an attitude of small town fascism often sitting on the backs of some people feeling a natural sense of authority over others

I forgot to say that the the first time I  heard the startling word Polis was late sixties from a Durham man who my father later told me had been in prison for GBH - would have been attempted murder but for him claiming to have blacked out.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I suppose you could use Gauleiter instead of "pocket dictator" or "little Hitler"

In reply to russellcampbell:

The problem with "whataboutery" ( apart from it being a shit made up word     ) is that it's often not used legitimately and instead is an attempt to stifle debate where someone has introduced a parallel example for consideration. Its biggest fans are often people who can only cope with debate if it follows a pre-determined path suited to their agenda.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Catching up on replies from two weeks ago...?

In reply to Tom Valentine:

it's self referencing isn't it.  Accusing of whataboutery is a form of wotaboutery or perhaps wotabowtoyou

In reply to Blue Straggler:

No worries Blue, to be honest it was pretty obvious on second reading that you had just not come across it with the sort of meaning I was intending.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Is there something wrong with that? 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I'll let you know in a couple of weeks...

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I nominate this as the absolute best thread since the onset of the virus.

You can.....erm.....

In reply to Tom Valentine

Can I.......see you next Tuesday ? 

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I think we could easily come up with a UKC bullshit bingo card. I’m sure that a lot of the usual suspects are playing a private game somewhere where they see how many of these ridiculous phases that they can slot in. They never seem to be used outside of forums, many of them never used outside of UKC except Twitter and the Guardian comments section. 
 

Someone even managed to get whataboutery into a reply to me today. I still have no idea what they were referring to. Certainly in what context. Suspect they just have the bingo card and select words at random and try to slot them in. 

In reply to DancingOnRock:

I'm surprised that people seem surprised by these phrases; I've not yet seen anything unfamiliar. And not just from 20 years posting on UKC...

In reply to captain paranoia:

YMMV 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Enough! We don't want this debate degenerating into an ARE

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Apparently so, yes.

In reply to captain paranoia:

It’s the frequency they’re used. It’s like a university debating society at times. Seems less like people are interested in discussing ideas like you would on a forum, and more about winning arguments using carefully baited traps and getting one over on each other. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

woke

In reply to wercat:

I  would have added to my list that but I see it's used in burger ads now.

Ironically, when I asked the most woke by far of all my friends about the word he didn't  have a clue what I was talking about.

In reply to wercat:

In defence of whataboutery it can be used to divert legitimate criticism and to shut down a debate. During the cold war the KGB had a whole department dedicated to shut down criticism of the state and communism using the tactics of whataboutery.

I first heard the whatabout term used in a political way at a Labour party rally in Oldham way back in the sixties. The speaker was George Brown ( Harold Wilson's sidekick, once found pissed up in a gutter-we dont have 'interesting' politicians like that anymore), He silenced a rowdy group of hecklers finger pointing at them  saying 'Oh its the whatabouts' to great hilarity and momentarily silencing them. An entertaining evening was had by all.

In reply to Removed User:

Are you defending the action of whataboutery or the accusation of whataboutery?

I think the accusation of "Whataboutery" is used all too often for precisely the purposes you've mentioned and  in those circumstances is pretty much indefensible.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I would have been similarly perplexed. The last 2 times I've heard it was from left wing Brexiteers who were convince voting Brexit would bring about the collapse of the Tory party and a socialist government (I obviously disagreed).

I'm now aware it can also mean, 'this is so awesome you'll want to thank me later'. A crumb of comfort in these difficult times.

In reply to Removed User:

'once found pissed up in a gutter-we dont have 'interesting' politicians like that anymore' Doesn't 'coked up in the House of Commons count then?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Another common phrase that gets to me is; it’s the least I could do. Hmm? It reminds me of an (American) advert where an airline captain says ‘xxxx airlines, I wouldn’t fly anything less’. So anything less would be far too much of a risk to fly with? Not exactly a vote of confidence.

In reply to Mark Edwards:

Yes and a variant of that is often seen in pop culture e.g. film posters quoting reviews like "Scorsese's best film since GoodFellas". So, GoodFellas is still better then and we are better off just watching that again?  

It's great fun at the low end of "straight to DVD rubbish". 
I saw some terrible looking thing in a charity shop which boasted "The best Brit werewolf flick since Dog Soldiers"  

But aren't these are old phrases and easy to understand, slightly off topic now?  

In reply to Mark Edwards:

Interestingly, on a US-dominated forum I read, our phrase 'I couldn't care less' becomes (almost universally) 'I could care less'.

Admittedly, I also see 'allot' being used instead of a lot, a lot...

In reply to Blue Straggler:

 

Heart sinks ...

In reply to Removed User:

For those who don't know the apocryphal story of George Brown's visit to Latin America.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/book-review-intrigue...

In reply to captain paranoia:

That's standard American. The forum you are reading is not full of people getting it wrong. It took me a while to figure it out, 20 years ago when I first started following forums and was active on a US-dominated one. 
You hear it in films, you read it in books. I don't know if it originated in deep sarcasm and somehow stuck, or if it means "well, I care so little, that I COULD care less but it's hardly worth the effort". 

I read and hear them "equivalently" now; if it's "I could care less" I'll know it's an American context, that's all. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I know... The interesting bit is that the difference is there, and is universal.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

 

Incidentally, I was wrong about that one i.e. teh_Mark has not posted since then

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I'm defending the accusation of whataboutery

In reply to Removed User:

Then I  can't think why you think it's defensible to "divert legitimate criticism and shut down debate" but if those are acceptable tactics then so be it. Makes it all rather pointless to me.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

No I mean it is OK to call whataboutery when someone is trying to divert legitimate criticism and shut down debate. Its a clumsy word but it does convey a certain meaning and yes it can be overused.as can others like virtue signalling. Perhaps my wording on earlier posts was misleading.

In reply to Removed User:

Understood.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

An example of passive aggressive might be a text one of my relatives (who I most certainly love dearly) sent to me when lots of people including me were needing to pay him for something, which was 'I'm now just waiting for one person to pay me!'

Rather than directly texting 'Can you pay me please Tim?' or expressing annoyance in plain language, his impatience/annoyance was expressed in a way which left it to me to join the dots. As a minor quirk within a very agreeable personality, it's pretty small in the scheme of things. I should probably be prompter too with such things.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I thought FTW was "further to which", it's seems not.

In reply to Timmd:

I am puzzled at the number of people additionally to Tom, who say they don’t understand “passive-aggressive”. Your example is a good clear one. It is an easy phrase to describe by example, and it’s not new. The classic is the “Fine, then, DO what you want, it’s FINE, really, I don’t mind” which must go back millenia. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I 've experienced the example you quote all my life but I've never known the technical term for it. Nearly all my reading is fiction and the same applies to my tv viewing. I have a normal hold on current affairs but the social  circles I mix in don't have the same cultural and educational mix as UKC.  i can't think where i should have come across a term like passive -aggressive. Maybe I should read more agony aunt columns?

Just checked and passive aggressive was first used in 1945 in a US war department document ( I immediately thought Catch 22)

And you can definitely throw "confirmation bias" into the mix.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

So long as one can recognise if somebody is being an arse, I don't suppose it matters if the technical term is known.  I guess people talking mockingly about other posters 'in conversation' on here could be seen as passive aggressive too, in them having a pop but not directly at whoever it is (making it easy for them to read it, and then have to decide whether to post in response or not). It seems a little bit underhand or not quite decent to me, when that happens occasionally. It doesn't happen often which is a plus.

In reply to Timmd:

So, as i understand it, the phrase "Please yourself" is passive -aggressive speech at its most concise?

In reply to Tom Valentine: It would depend on the tone of voice and context, but sometimes yes. I once said that to somebody I'd only just me who was sleeping on my sofa, regarding additional comfort which they'd refused, and followed it with 'In an agreeable way' as they were closing their eyes, and they visible relaxed on knowing I'd not taken the hump.

I reckon many couples have had one person say something like 'Do what you want to do' or 'Please yourself', with an undertone of that not being fine at all...

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I prefer the phrase " you can spank me later "

Leads to all sorts of adventures

In reply to Removed User:

Gracious, how did that work?

-'Our government is an unaccountable monolith that exploits our labour in the name of the collective good, denies us freedoms and oppresses opposition!'

-'You're one to talk comrade, what about the time you...'

In reply to Timmd:

Just found a shorter one in a thread :

"Whatever."

Can't get more concise than that!