UKC

My car got written off last week, looking at getting a deisel estate or van to replace it. I do a lot of miles, so am thinking about keeping down costs (and doing less harm to the environment) by using a bit of veg oil. Anyone here tried this, on an unmodified engine? And do i need to keep away from common rail or turbo charged engines if I do? If I get a van I fancy a Peogeut Expert HDi, estate probably a Skoda Octavia SDi. Any experience of these generally, gratefully hoovered up!

In reply to danm:

I take it you saw Mythbusters last night?

In reply to danm:

The Peugeot HDi engine is lovely (I have the Partner 1.6HDi Combi). I can't imagine putting in veg oil + ethanol into a Euro IV engine would be so great, but it might be fine.

Dunno about longevity of these new engines. I can't see it doing 300K with virtually no maintenance. There are problems with injector wear on the new engines apparently esp with lower cetane diesels, which I guess vegeisel might be. I use Miller's Diesel Sport IV as well to try to reduce this problem...

In reply to danm: I think you would be better off with proven technology how about LPG this site is quite good and gives you a start

http://www.greenfuel.org.uk/cars

In reply to danm:

My mate's just converted his Jeep to veg oil by adding a heat-exchanger and a wider fuel-pipe. Reckons he get 50p per mile in fuel now.

Stops at Tesco quite a lot these days...

In reply to danm: Be aware that if you use veg oil as a fuel you are supposed to pay duty on it. Failure to do so is tax evasion apparently. I suppose it only applies if you are buying such large quantities that you flag up somewhere. Good luck!

In reply to boynamedsue:

Yep, and there's also police assigned to sniff for that chip-shop smell.

In reply to danm:

If you put a tablespoon of sand in the oil it cleans your valves

In reply to danm: VAG diesels are better on SVO. Cold weather will be a bitch unless you preheat.
Lucas pumps shear their shaft because SVO is more viscous than mineral

In reply to danm:
The SDi Octavia really is the poor mans option the TDis are vastly superior. I was going to buy a diesel myself, my wife has a Polo Tdi and genuinly gets 55 to 60 MPG and it is on long life servicing ( so only had its first service at 26000). Look carefully at the sevice intervals and do your sums. The car I ended up with can do 40mpg and has 20000 miles or two year service intervals. I dont do the mileage to justify diesel, you might do

In reply to danm: I'd second that - a sdi will be very slow and noisy. It's definitely worth the extra money to get a tdi.

In reply to danm: From what I’ve read, veggy diesel is OK for older engines. Newer engines, operating at higher fuel pressures need the extra lubrication that commercial diesel provides.

In reply to Billy the fish: Duty is 27.1 pence per litre. Buying 3L of veg oil at Asda/Tesco/etc worked out at 55p a litre during the summer. Cost of 82.1p a litre (plus 1 stamp per month).

Last week diesel was 86p a litre on forecourts; Asda did have a promotional offer of a reduction of a further 2p a litre if you paid using their credit card:- 84p a litre.

Not a great saving if you pay the duty.

Fuel economy was less with veg oil than diesel too - fewer miles on veg oil.

In reply to Dee:

LPG is 38p/l including road duty.
Big engined petrol vehicles come cheap second hand.
Nobody wants one.
Done 250 000 miles since '98 when i swapped to LPG.
that's £25k at 10p/mile saving.
Cleaner emmisions from LPG, free road charge in London.
Doesn't soot the oil so much, longer engine life.
Do the maths.

In reply to dougs: Can't disagree. I've a friend who's been running a Range Rover on LPG for a while - he thinks it's great; I bought diesel because it's what I was familiar with, not necessarily a choice I'd make next time, I agree. I know of others who've converted the large boots of Jags, for example, into gas storage vessels to make the most of the cheaper fuel prices because the fuel efficiency is just less than it is for petrol - apparently.

I think that the price differential is critical, hopefully the Exchequer retain it...

In reply to danm: I friend of mine has an old Land Rover and does this constantly, buys the oil in builk and does a rougth 50/50 mix, apparently it cuts his fuel bills in half.

In reply to danm: I have a Passat Tdi (130 bhp) and its great. I need a second car and there are lots of Skoda Sdi's around for modest money. I tried one yesterday - a Fabia 1.9Sdi (same engine as in the Octavia). Gutless. Virtually no acceleration in 3rd and noisy. I then tried a 1.4Tdi Fabia. Like chalk and cheese. Although only 1.4 the Tdi engine was far better than the Sdi (the Tdi is 75 bhp as compared to the 64 of the Sdi. Like others I would caution against the Sdi engine in anything. Stick out for the Tdi in an Octavia (or even a Fabia), you won't regret it.

As for veg oil, I am intrigued about the idea but am anxious about trying it.

In reply to danm:

Similar thread a while ago. Check it out here;

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=197609&v=1#2883084

Rich White.

In reply to Richard White:

Make your own biodiesel here....

http://www.schnews.org.uk/diyguide/howtomakebiodiesel.htm

Fester

In reply to danm:

There's a lot of info here,i think it goes into quite a lot of detail about how to make different kinds of biofuel yourself for different kinds of diesel engines,and about using biofuel for heating your home and using in camping lamps and stoves,which ones will work with biofuel,and if any need adapting and how to adapt them.

http://journeytoforever.org/

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Nevis-the-cat:

Really? I've heard sugar works much better...

In reply to danm: In time, you will ruin your engine by using veg oil because it doesn't contain the same lubricants as diesel oil. You need to modify the engine. I do not know how.

In reply to danm: I used a 50/50 mix for 9 months, and despite all warnings to the contrary my Peug suffered no adverse effects... what better lubricant than cooking oil?

Be aware, the police are on the case; they're stopping motorists, dipping tanks, confiscating cars, and if you should be avoiding payment of tax on the oil, they'll inform the Inland Revenue, and you'll be liable for a fine and back payments. Plus they threaten to inform your insurers as you may not be covered.

In reply to Rosie A:

All of the following is a shortened version of what i gleaned from the guys at dieselveg there is a lot more info on their page... www.dieselveg.com

So as stated earlier the problem with Veg Oil is that it is a lot more viscous at temperatures normally found in the UK.

It is also worth mentioning that the diesel engine was originally designed to run on peanut oil and did so successfully.

Further to that there are a growing number of vegetable oil stations in germany - a country that seems to know a little bit about automotive engineering.

Onto the crux of the problem - the fuel pump! The bosch fuel pump found in cars such as the VW t4 transporter (not sure about the others) will have problems with viscosity.

"If the fuel is not atomised correctly it can form big globules resulting in unburned fuels coming from exhaust and may cause polymerisation on the bores creating premature engine wear and increased engine oil contamination. Even mixing veg oil with diesel can cause the same problems to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the amounts used, even if the vehicle appears to start ok."

To that end the solution is to put a heat exchanger before the fuel goes to the pump and have a startup tank say 20l filled up with diesel with a switch over on hte dash when the engine is up to temperature - and thus the heat exchanger.

This system is available in a kit for about £600 or these guys will fit it for about £1000. So its not cheap if you want it done professionally.

Pros and cons...
Pros:
Your car becomes considerably more environmentally friendly, in terms of poisonous gases produced, reduced carbon emmisions, and the fact that the carbon is fromt he current carbon cycle.
You can also get the fuel for free if you are willing to filter it - obviously you still have to pay the 27p duty.

Cons:
The problem you may find however is the fuel is a pain to get hold of in the quantities you require and quite messy. If you decide to filter it becomes a fairly serious operation to save money. Also it is advised to reduce the oil chsnge schedule to 5000 miles instead of 10.

It all depends on your motivations I suppose. It is undoubtedly better for the environment than diesel fuel. The main resistance from the government is that it is currently hard to regulate and hence could create a huge hole in the revenue generated from the current fuel taxes.
I think its a great idea just not very easy at the moment.

Hope that was useful

In reply to Karriless: Yes I read that, and one or two other sites beside... ideally you use a heat exchanger at £600 a go. Or not, a secondhand Peug diesel can cost as little as £500, as I said, my engine has suffered no discernible ill effects (to the garage that services it I mean) over 9 months of what would have been incredible savings (if I'd run it without paying tax to the inland revenue that is, which would of course have been illegal).

In reply to danm:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

In case you have toruble finding where it is on the website.

In reply to Timmd:

A lot depeneds on the vehicle. Older Landrovers are great. By old I mean up to and inbcluding the TDi range which was in Discos and 90/110's until about 1997. The later Td5 emgine won't do it although bios diesels etc should be ok. In the summer I run 75% veg oil in my TDi 90. Thats recycledstuff scrounged the pubs etc. Chinese take aways use a lot but chippies are often using solid veg oil which isn't all that good! Paying duty is dead easy and remeber you pay on what you use and only you know that!I carry my duty form with me just in case the ministry inpectors stop me but have never been bothered. lots of farms about here so they lurk about looking for people using red diesel. You need to change the engine oil slightly more frequently but with a mini refinery in the woods next to me I only pay £4.50 for 5 litres of top quality oil. Fuel filters need to be changed more often but they are paenuts on a landrover.
i redu ce the % as the weather gets colder as it strains the lift pump sucking thick oil through and eventualy run on straight dieasel as I can't be arsed with heat exchangers etc. Bear in mind you have to heat the oil at the tank really. if you search the web there is tons of info out there. You could start by loging on to difflock.com which is a 4wed forumn that has a section on alternative fuels.