UKC

I understand that the DUP won't support a EU customs union just for Northern Ireland without rest of the UK.  But I've not found any comment on whether they would support the whole of the UK joining an EU customs Union, removing the need for an Irish boarder whilst ensuring NI remains a full part of the EU.  Surely it would make sense for them to vote against the government on this so ensuring a Government defeat.

or have I missed something?

I think the DUP campaigned for brexit plus they like the leverage and £1 billion budget boost too they get for supporting the govt.

You’ve missed that they are essentially a bunch of british nationalists extremists, not only they don’t care about a hard border, but deep down that’s probably what they want.

Voting against the government means voting with Corbyn which given his track record of support for Sinn Fein and the IRA is about as likely as them asking for the blessing of the Pope.

People would be a lot less interested in the views of 10 Brexiting DUP MPs if the 6 Sinn Fein MPs were able to take their seats in the commons and vote for the Remain side and Northern Ireland had balanced representation in the commons.  It's ridiculous to expect an Irish Republican elected on that platform to swear allegiance to the Queen 

Please show evidence of Corbyn supporting the IRA.

Jeremy doesn't really appear to support anything with any true clarity. He hovers on the fence and assesses which way the wind is blowing before declaring his position with just enough ambiguity to claim the reverse. Smoke and mirrors. Opportunism.

Well I'm hoping Sinn Fein will come to Westminster's rescue against the DUP

I think you're jumping to conclusions. I was explaining why the DUP will not vote with Corbyn, I don't think there's any doubt in their minds that he supported the IRA. Whether you or I agree with that is irrelevant.

Quite possibly. The DUP's position on brexit is almost inexplicable from an outsider's perspective. Many of their supporters would likely approve of toughening up the Eire border and the idea of a tight-knit UK hanging together against the mighty EU and the rest of the world likely has some appeal. The thing that's baffling though is that it was obvious from the outset that the complete opposite was if not a given, a serious risk, that the Union would start pulling apart at the seams as each nation sought greater powers and their own version of brexit, that the Eire border and the obvious end point solution of reunification would be brought back into focus.

What did the DUP actually want from brexit and has the plan changed? It's dangerous to assume they're idiots however extreme some of their views and positions may seem there will be a certain logic to them. I think it's also wrong to see their current strong position as the result of strategic action, it's a happy (for them) accident in the aftermath of brexit rather than an inevitable consequence of it.

jk

"Corbyn which given his track record of support for Sinn Fein and the IRA" are your words, what other conclusion could I jump to other than YOU think Corbyn supports the IRA.

I imagine they just don't see what you see.  Wales voted to leave the EU, just like England.  The majority of NI voted to remain, but in the election the DUP were returned to power with a greater majority, and they are happy with leaving with the EU and definitely happy with remaining in the UK.  In Scotland the SNP are whinging on, but the Scots voted to remain in the UK a few years ago and afaik there's no movement in that position.  The SNP lost seats at the last election to unionist parties (granted that was likely to happen, and indicates little).  The union is not pulling apart.

Two things the DUP seem to excel at are blinkered insular self interest and brinkmanship

I don't buy it. I don't like their politics but they're not daft so if I as an unexceptional individual could see the risks I'd be a fool to think they didn't, they want something from brexit but I'm damned if I can figure out what. Do you have any idea?

Brexit in the immediate aftermath of the Scotish independence referendum has placed the UK under far greater strain that at any point in my lifetime. The painful regional repercussions of brexit in the decades to come will not relieve that strain.

jk

For the UK to be a sovereign country rather than part of the EU I'd imagine.

I think this is all exaggerated by the press personally.  As said, there's no evidence that there's any more of a chance of any of the nations leaving now than there was 3 years ago, when Scotland had their vote.  It's funny how the Welsh vote is continually skipped over when certain people bang on about how *England* voted to leave.

No you didn't you're a liar and a bad one at that. Show us evidence that he supported the IRA or shut up.

FTFY

Which election?  The DUP lost 10 seats in the MLA election and now only have 28 seats to Sinn Feins 27 with the SDLP on 12.  That makes the DUP the biggest party but far from an overall majority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly_election,_2017

I don't think the Westminster election results are a fair measure of popular support in Northern Ireland since Sinn Fein don't take their seats at Westminster and republicans who don't accept that Westminster has any business governing Northern Ireland may well boycott them.

The whole business of not allowing Sinn Fein to take seats at Westminster without swearing allegiance to the queen and accepting UK sovereignty in Northen Ireland is an undemocratic fix-up.  If they get elected they should get to go to take their seat in parliament without giving up the manifesto on which they were elected.

I think you're forgetting who's parliament it is. If you want to operate as part of it then you do so under the Queen.

The general election, where people vote on national issues like this one, not the local elections.

If Sinn Fein had 10 seats to the DUP's 7 they'd be the majority, whether they turn up or not.  They don't.

That's the exact problem.  In a modern democratic country it would be the citizen's parliament not the Queen's parliament.

Keeping Sinn Fein out of parliament because they are Irish republicans is just as retrograde as keeping UKIP out of parliament because they are UK nationalists.  The function of parliament is to represent the people.  Sinn Fein got elected and they renounced violence so they should get to take their seats without pretending to be monarchists or unionists.

 If you were a UKIP voter and UKIP candidates weren't able to take their seats in the EU parliament would you vote in EU elections?   Fortunately the EU parliament is democratic enough not to force Nigel Farage to swear an oath of loyalty to Junckers  before taking his seat.   When it comes to 'national issues' if you support Sinn Fein you think of your nation as Ireland.

No, they don't and they never will unless Sinn Fein are able to take their seats.  The interesting maths are not about whether Sinn Fein has more MPs than the DUP but about whether May's majority would stand up on a close Brexit vote with some Tory rebels if there were 6 Sinn Fein votes on the other side.

It does seem odd, when the monarchy is constitutional in name and procedure only and only survives because royalty are completely removed from any decision-making, that a requirement for purely symbolic swearing of allegiance to monarchy should be having a genuine effect on the actual decision-making process of elected UK parliamentarians.

I don't disagree, and I don't think that the swearing allegiance bit should prevent them turning up.  That doesn't change the figures though, 10 DUP MPs elected are the majority of NI MPs.  In terms of national figures, DUP + Conservatories are a majority with or without Sinn Fein turning up.

Yes. But with a knife-edge majority and the prospect of rebellions from just about any and every faction, a handful of MPs gives you an awful lot of clout - as the DUP are proving

Well we live in strange times in which all the old truths are lies, old principles are torn down and self-seeking plotters have brought about a time when even Sinn Fein must sometimes wonder at the drama that would unfold if they forwent their objections and took up their seats with devastating effect ...

That's  a rather harsh accusation. Sorry  phrased my original post badly, allow me to rephrase it.

Voting against the government means voting with Corbyn which given his track record of support for Sinn Fein and the IRA, as they would see it, since as far as they are concerned they are one and the same, is about as likely as them asking for the blessing of the Pope.

I'm simlpy explaining why the DUP will not vote against the government.

I don't know to what extent, if any Corbyn supported the IRA. He's a bit ambiguous on that as he is on many awkward issues. He clearly had a close relationship with Sinn Fein who's connection to the IRA is also somewhat ambiguous.

It would certainly be extremely entertaining if they took a leaf from the book of the Glasgow City Councillor who hid in a chimney and jumped out at the moment of a critical vote.

.

Would *you* swear allegiance to the Republic of Ireland in order to represent the English voters to whom you actually owe your allegiance were the tables somehow turned? If you did do you reckon your electorate would support that decision at the next ballot or do you think you might be branded a traitor by former friend and foe alike?

Out of curiosity, have you ever been to Northern Ireland?

jk

Sinn Fein's interests seem best served by allowing the brexit trainwreck to unfold in all its horror. There's never been a better opportunity to peacefully reunite Ireland than to simply wait, allow the economic shock from brexit, a feeling of betrayal by Westminster even among some unionists and inexorable demographic change to converge in the perfect storm.

jk

As someone who passionately was, lifelong, in favour of the continued existence of the United Kingdom and who dreaded Scottish Independence or the loss of Northern Ireland I feel that Brexit has provided the greatest ever justification for these two changes and should hard Brexit really go ahead they will be in the best interests of those two entities.

Mind you, fancy old Heseltine rubbing his hands and saying that even a Corbyn government would be less harmful to the UK than Brexit!

If there is any great desire for the northern Irish to leave the UK and for the Republic of Ireland to accept them then that is in their own hands and there's bigger all the uk government can do about it.

I haven't heard much discussion about this as an option.

That's not entirely accurate, they're currently engaged in creating the economic and political conditions for that vote to be held.

Give it 5 years if we actually go through with meaningfully leaving the CU and SM.

jk

I imagine there are many in both main UK parties who privately would shed no tears if NI joined the Republic. I'm not aware of any overwhelming economic argument for  resisting departure and for  today's generation of  mainland politicians who grew up with The Troubles on the news every evening  Northern Ireland is synonymous with a bunch of savages blowing each other up and knee-capping each other over religions that most people on the mainland don't even believe in. Thanks to the GFA and a few years of relative peace you no longer hear the old 'They should tow it out into the Atlantic and sink it'  but it would not take much to bring those sentiments back.

The possible outcomes for NI and Scotland came into my head moments after I heard the referendum result early in the morning after the vote - I suppose that has put me on listening watch on those two matters over the past months.

Brexit makes me wonder for what all the lives and effort were expended by the UK during the troubles since 1969.  I was a firm believer in the fight against Republican terrorism (and of course the Loyalist faction's contribution) till recently, but now it's beginning to look futile.