UKC

how many climbers in the uk have climbed an 8a then. would it be more than 200.

In reply to DEvans: Think you are missing at least a 0 off the end of your figure. T

In reply to Tim Lowe:

Lets not start another name and fame list. Someone will start complaining that certain routes are soft 8a/hard 7c+ blah blah blah.

S

In reply to Tim Lowe: do you think 2000 climbers in the uk have climbed 8a.

another question, how many climbers are in the uk.

In reply to DEvans:

theres around 2500 registered at manchester wall now so use that for your guide. Of course there mainly punters
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: about 20.000 would that be about right

In reply to DEvans: Well, compared to a lot of people at the glasgow wall i'm pretty crap, and i've led 7b+.

There must be a good 20 to 30 people who regularly go to the GCC that can do 8a. I'd guess there's well over 1000 in the uk.

In reply to DEvans:

my guess - 124856?

In reply to S i'm on & on: You are fairly close but 1 out on your total young man!! Get your figures right. T

In reply to S i'm on & on: thats a better guessthan mine. how likely it would have been 20.000 exactly.

In reply to Tim Lowe:

Sorry Tim. I heard someone gave up last night at roughly 11pm.

Is Kilnsey dead and gone for the year? Was optimistically hoping that after my last visit I'd get one more day on the Bulge this year!

Ta, Simon

In reply to DEvans:

More likely than 20.001! How do you get a 1/1000th of a climber anyway?

In reply to DEvans:
Probably be easier to list the people who haven't.

In reply to Serpico:

It seems that there are two camps here, those who have done 8a and so assume evryone has and those that haven't and assume it's only possible by the top handful of climbers. The thing is although 8a has been around for years I'm not sure that there are loads of people in the UK who have climbed it. I spend a lot of time at Malham, Kilnsey, Tor etc and it is very rare to see somone redpointing 8a or above, it's even rarer for someone to be doing their first so extrapolating from this I'd say there won't e many more than 500 UK climbers who have done 8a (uness there are hundreds of them bombing up Orion at Kalymnos each week! )

In reply to DEvans:

It's probably al lot less than you're imagining. There are loads of climbers that look strong in-doors but don't apply to outdoor climbing. If you list how many women have climbed 8a in the UK it's very few, and if you're saying there's 2000 climbing above 8a that would be more than 100 men climbing 8a to every woman. I can't believe that is right!

In 1995, OTE compiled a list of all the people who had climbed 8b or E8, they got around 60 if I remember correctly. So how many are doing that now 10 years later, maybe 10 times as many? Still only makes 600 or so.

In reply to andi turner: plenty in sheffield alone.

In reply to Paul B:

Yeah maybe but not 2000 or 1000 even, probably a few hundered.

In reply to andi turner: for what it's worth - which isn't much... In 2003 a 'report' came up with a total rock climbing participation figure of 1.27M - 500 climbers at 8a would mean 0.04% of currently active climbers have climbed 8a - seems very low......if you're talking about ever lead an 8a the figure may well be in the thousands !

In reply to DEvans:

Another question - where's the line between being a bumbly/punter and a climber? Is it grades or style?

In reply to Bored: FWIW, rock climbing has a pretty high turnover rate.

In reply to DEvans:
There will of course be a bit difference between the number of people who 'can lead' 8a and those that 'have led' 8a. Reaching 8a may be the pinnacle of many people's climbing career, and these people are the ones that you are never likely to have heard of - I can think of several brits (either in this country or abroad) who can lead 8a, and haven't seen their names in any of the recent threads on this topic, because they either a) don't have a public climbing persona and/or b) don't live in Sheffield.

I would agree with the estimate that a few hundred (between say 2-500) are currently capable of leading 8a, though I'm confident that the number of people who have ever led 8a is higher. Not sure it's as high as 2000 though.

In reply to JimLondon: it's grades i think.

i think the figure of 1.2 million people who climb is an awful lot. do the ones count who did one session at a wall and never went back count.

In reply to SARS: yeah even including those - only one in 2,500 seems low - if you went to any climbing wall (bmc states somewhere that surveys say that somehting like 80%+ climbers visit indoor walls) and took how many of the first 2,500 different pple to come through the door had climbed 8a at some point in their life you'll prob get more than one !

In reply to Alun:
I can think of several brits (either in this country or abroad) who can lead 8a, and haven't seen their names in any of the recent threads on this topic, because they either a) don't have a public climbing persona and/or b) don't live in Sheffield.

or c) because being able to lead 8a really isn't a big deal...

you don't really expect to have heard of everyone who's climbed 8a do you ?

In reply to Bored: Think the figure of 1.2m is too high anyhow.

How many people at a busy wall on a busy night? Maybe at The Castle, say 500 max? That would make a max of 3500 different people throughout the week. Multiply by three for Mile End and Westway. So, let's say 10k people climbing at walls in London - maximum. How then 1.2m people in UK?

And I would guess that London has a higher propn of wall climbers, given proximity to crags...

In reply to Tyler: I've climbed for quite a long time and I know about three people who have actually climbed 8a - all Finns oddly.

I suspect the number of UK climbers to have done it is a lot smaller than some people think.

In reply to TobyA: There was a group of us - about 8 people who got very keen on sport climbing in the late 80s and early 90s. Four people got to 8a (I got stuck at 7c+)Two now live abroard, one has retired. I am sure you will not have heard of any of us. If you went to the right crags at the right time loads of people were doing them 15 years ago.

Pedro

In reply to DEvans:
the best climbers at my wall will be able to climb 8a. thats about 4 people, i would imagine thats the same at most walls... and of course more at really popular walls..

i would definetly say there arent only a 'select' few uk climbers to climb 8a. a select few climb 9a, though.

In reply to DEvans:there are no 8a climbers that live in hull im 90% certain of this!

In reply to DEvans:

I know very few pure sport climbers and I've climbed quite a lot with at least four people who've done 8a and another two who've done 7c+ and I'm quite sure could do 8a if sport climbing was their thang. And as pedro says sport climbing was a lot more in fifteen years ago.

I also know someone who's done Gigglin' Crack. Bolt that f*cker and stick it next to Caviar, and I know which'd see more ascents. Solid 8a by that test.

If the total were under 1000 I'd be very surprised.

jcm

In reply to DEvans:
A fair few people have climbed 8a. But dont assume from this that 8a is any pushover. It is haaaard... stating the obvious again Fred ... Shut up.

*Jumps off a bridge*

In reply to DEvans:

There are 6 or so where (city of 300k) I live who have climbed/are climbing 8a and above and we don't have many hard climbs to go at here in NZ so i would expect there to be plenty climbing 8a in the UK esp when you have Europe right there

I would say that the number is higher than you think. As others have said, the people who go of and do it quitely for their own satisfaction, rather than getting in mags.

In reply to DEvans: Rest assured that if I ever get vaguely close to doing 8a i will let EVERYONE know all about it!!!!!!!!

In reply to DEvans: I wouldn't put a figure on the number of Uk climbers that have climbed 8a. It's probably more than people think, as 8a isn't that hard by top standards and many climbers are much fitter now than they were 10-15 years ago.

If you go back 25 years the top grade was E7, with a fair number of E5's around the place. 10 years later, those E5's are trade routes. The first 8a in the country was Statement, back in '84 (yes I know Requiem was climbed before it and get's 8a+), and that is not far from being a trade route, as are routes like Raindogs and Zoolook, which see lots of ascents a year, although not by me

Andy F

Andy F

In reply to Adam Rooke:

You dont get in the mags for climbing 8a anyway, even if you really wanted to, unless a) its a new route, b) someone else decides it's vagely of interest, c) youre a girl or under 14 years old.

In reply to andy farnell:

And that's had, what, 4 ascents?


Keep training Andy. We have faith in you!

In reply to Anonymous:


Ah, that old one! Of course we could all climb 8a if we set our mind to it, it's easy if you practise these things enough etc. etc. But that wasn't the question.

In reply to Andy Farnell:

You spend a lot of time down the cat walk but think about it, how often do you see someon actually redpoint an 8a or above. Lots of people are working them but it's not often a cheer goes up for a successful RP. I go on busy days and week days and rarely if ever see people bag hardish projects. Raindogs and Zoolook probably account for a large %age of fist time 8as but apart from a couple of people who can train on them you don't see many successful ascents

In reply to Tyler:


True on any particular day you don't probaly won't see one. But over a season at all the main sport crags you'd see quite a few if you were there every day. In terms of numbers it must be quite a lot - just naming all the vaguely well know climbers over the last 20 odd years (going back to big Ron) must get well in excess of 100 and these days have climbing 8a is of no note at all except for the climber involved and his mates. I could name plenty of people you won't of heard who have climbed 8a (including Andy F, though I guess you have heard of him!)

If you were asking me to guess I would say the number of UK climbers who have redpointed 8a at least once is well in excess of 200 and very probably more than 1000. Not 10-20,000 though.

In reply to Ian Patterson:
I can think of 44 just among people I know (ie: not counting your Moons and Moffats etc).
8a is the new HVS.

In reply to Serpico:


Not for me it isn't!!

Though my dad climbed through the 60's up to the mid 70's and never got past VS so maybe you're right!

In reply to Bored:

Well, that's kind of my point. Pedro50s post just backs in up. Also, I met a (British) guy while on holiday in Catalunya the other day; he could lead 8a, and I'd never heard of him before. And judging by the conversations I had with him, he had several mates who had led 8a, and I'd never heard of any of them either.

In reply to andy farnell:

There is being a regular 8a climber and there is spending a year perfecting sequences on the catwalk to tick a grade by doing one 8a route - it ain't the same thing.

Which was your last E5 trade route by the way, Mr Clipper

In reply to Pedro50: ritchie patterson? must have climbed 8a in the past...

In reply to whispering nic:

True but irrelevant - the question asked was how many people in the UK have climbed 8a.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

i just did a search on 8a.nu for climbers who've climbed 8a and above in the UK. the answers 787 so thread over.
bye everyone enjoy the rest of your day
p

In reply to JCM:

>If the total were under 1000 I'd be very surprised.

Me too...

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

THat just means that at least 787 people have climbed 8a. I'd happily bet that there are many who have climbed that grade but see no desire to show off about it on 8a.nu.

In reply to Alun:
And probably a few who like to boast about it on 8a.nu but haven't actually managed it at the crag...

In reply to Alun:

its not even that definitive. Its the number of routes of 8a and above that have been climbed. I didnt see rupertD on the list and rich simpson comes up plenty more times thans other climbers who've climbed alot at the higher grades. Also as its a graded list you'd expect to see ben moon listed next to richrd simpson as RS has been repeating alot of BMs routes, so I guess thats 2 climbers that definitely arent on the list and an explanation of why it aint that good really. Anyway 8a isnt that hard. andy Farnell who posted above has climbed 8a and i'm sure a lot more on this site have done too
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

This is a separate discussion in it own right. Personally I feel that while 8a may not be hard in terms of the what is being achieved elsewhere at the cutting edge, for the vast majority of the climbing population, 8a is actually very hard indeed - and people who have climbed it either have exceptional natural talent, or have worked very hard to manage it.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

How can you say that? You haven't even come close to 8a. Neither have I, but I don't have the audacity to say it ain't hard...!

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

In addition, there are hundreds and hundreds of people in the UK who have climbed 8a and wouldn't know what an 8a.nu profile is never mind waste the time or energy creating one.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben: sorry slightly of thread but how may have climbed 8b

In reply to broughton power: Doh. 1000's obviously. It's easy. Only two grades harder than your bog standard 8a trade route, after all.

In reply to SARS:

the lack of getting close to 8a is more todo with being a boulderer than lack of ability. I'll assure you that its not an unachievable grade for a vast number of people if they put the work in. The people i know who are still working hard at the f7b level are mainly working on their onsight ability and i'm sure alot of them could redpoint f7c and push to f8a with a bit of hard work
p

In reply to broughton power:

Now that I couldnt say. ~I'd guess its still in the hundreds. I can think of 5 in the north west so add in the people I dont know the names of and you've got maybe 10 or 20 in the north west, add on the peak, scotland, south coast, wales etc and your headnig towards the hundreds
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Ha ha! This is greatest load of self-congratulatory shit I've ever read! Come on then, which 8a's have you been on and reckon you could do?


eh? Its two grades harder. That is a BIG difference, believe me. What garbage!

In reply to coconutter:

nothing of the sort. f8a is the sort of grade that can be climbed by anyone after a few years of proper training and hard work. Its not siomething you could do in a year or 2 at the wall, but its definitely achievable for anyone with a good level of fitness. Its comparable to the amount of people who boulder v10. As far as f8as i've done, none would be the answer as i dont sport climb
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
Anyway 8a isnt that hard. andy Farnell who posted above has climbed 8a and i'm sure a lot more on this site have done too

Sorry but that's just ridiculous.
8a might not be that hard compared to a 9a, but huge numbers of climbers never manage 6a or E1, enourmous amounts never get near E3 or 7a, and only a tiny portion manage 8a relative to the total number of climbers. Nobody climbs 8a without a significant amount of dedication and hard work.

Besides, Andy Farnell is a beast. With pish footwork.

In reply to coconutter:

>Come on then, which 8a's have you been on and reckon you could do?

Yeah... come'on Pete fess up... I'd like to hear your explanation too.

Ben (aiming for 8a next year and under no illusions as to how difficult it's going to be...)

In reply to whispering nic:

were not talking about the relative proportion of climbers that climb 8a were talking about how many as an actual number. I bet alot of the people who punter around on e1s and f6as could train properly for a couple of years and get up f7a, 7b, 7c etc and keep pushing it like the rest of the good climbers, jsut most people dont want to
p

In reply to coconutter: well said - too many people who haven't climbed the grade spout on about how they could 'with a bit of effort'....what a load of tosh. no one is really interested in 'could' only 'did' 7b to 8a is a long way it's still a very very tough grade to achieve

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

You talk rubbish. Whichever wall I'm down at in London (and I use them all), very few people are even climbing well into the 7's. Most are struggling on low 6's. And it's always the same faces climbing hard.

Arse.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

I would bother but i really cant be arsed with the shite that gets spouted round this site in the last few weeks. anyway good luck on the 8a. Which one you going to try? I'll hopefully be braking into v10 next year or at least thats the plan once i've built myself a decent woodie. v10s hard too but its not unachievable in the same way as f8a is hard but not unachievably hard for plenty of people.

seeya all, enjoy the bunfight
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Classic!!

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

I see what you're trying to say, that 8a is achievable by any climber as long as they train etc. Just because lots of people do it doesn't make it true. I know at least one good climber who does stamina and power 7c's fine, stamina 7c+'s in a couple of days regularly, and yet can't do 8a despite desperately trying for nearly a decade.

I don't think you should be devaluing people's efforts on 8a, which is a hard grade, by saying its piss because loads can do it. Especially when you haven't done one, probably haven't tried one, and almost certainly couldn't do one.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Oh, the irony.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Says the man who has just spouted forth on a subject that he readily admits to having no knowledge or personal experience........you my freind are a total clown

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

>I would bother but i really cant be arsed with the shite that gets spouted round this site in the last few weeks

Priceless Pete priceless... are you really typing that with a straight face?

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:


later:


So we've gone from "anyone" to "plenty of people", if we keep pushing you will we get to "very few"?

I suspect that statistically UK climbers are less likely to have acheived 8a because a) we don't have sport climbing culture, b) we have relatively few sport climbing venues and c) British climbing has a tradition of being about adventure and risk (or risk control) not about 'sport'. Living and climbing in a different country now, the contrast is very clear.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel

I'vejust done the same 8a.nu search. It gives 787 ASCENTS of 8a and over, not 787 seperate people that have climbed 8a. Most of the ascents are accounted for by a few people.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
qoute>
Anyway 8a isnt that hard.<

quote >f8a is hard >

You're confusing me

In reply to TobyA:
I have always puzzled over this 'anyone can climb 8a' - is that like anyone can run a 4 minute mile, or swim the channel, etc, etc.
The theory appears to be - achieving the grade just requires application - what ever happened to talent & aptitude?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Delusions of grandeur?

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Having just looked at your gallery, you look suspiciously similar to a chap I saw waltz confidently up to the Bowderstone to "get some mileage in, just tick a few V8's", and then proceeded to fail on the first move to Power Pinch, the easiest move on what is a soft V8. Good luck with the V10, although the board you need to help you achieve this may be a "Back to the Future"-style hover board.

P.S. Apologies if you aren't the aforementioned fruit I met.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I wonder about this too. Most people COULD climb 8a, if they were dedicated, but the fact is 99% of people aren't. That's why climbing 8a is impressive, it shows that you could be bothered to put some hard work in, and show some tenacity on the route, and some long term dedication that's not just bobbing down the wall once a week.

In reply to Agent Moog:
I remain unconvinced!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: Are you suggesting I lack talent and apptitude Chris! That's fighting talk.



...of course you're completely correct though.

More seriously I think its very true. I'm one of life's unsporty people - I was rubbish at all sports at school: athletics, anything with a ball etc etc. I've been climbing all my adult life. I'm competent and safe. I get to climb regularly. I've climbed and learn't from lots of climbers. I've climbed on lots different rock types. I done lots of different types of climbing (trad, sport, ice etc.) I'm fit (cycle a lot), eat pretty well, and I'm not overweight for my size and age.

And yet I'm still at a level where lots of naturally talented people get to in their first year of climbing - E1. I've onsighted 6a+ (although I've never been too interested in sport climbing) and done 6b+ after a few gos. I'm sure if I didn't need to work, didn't have family committments and had more of a training ethic I could get better - but I suspect I would never get that much above the low 7s (French) or E3 or so. Saying anyone can climb 8a just isn't true I reckon.

I'm not going to cry about it. I breezed through school with out much trouble, whilst friends had to slog get their grades up. People are different etc.

In reply to Agent Moog:

I would like to believe it is only dedication that is lacking, but there is a powerful counter argument; most climbers are egotistical and ambitious and therefore it seems unlikely that it is dedication they lack. talent and/or strength, I'd say.

In reply to Just askin':
Re strength: as has been said, 8a's not that hard. We're not talking levels of strength that are genetically unattainable for most. so it's life style and training that they're lacking. The think is you need a lot of training, not just a bit, and not just doing a few routes.

I can think of plenty of people I know that can't climb 8a and say they've tried training, but none who have put real effort into it. they all just do a bit of bouldering, go to the gym, and lap a few easy routes and reckon that should be all there is to it, but that's not real training, and it's no suprise they get no-where. Training is like dieting. Anyone can diet, it's easy, just eat less, but 99% of people on diets do it so badly that they never lose weight.

In reply to Agent Moog:

Your last was a slightly confusingly written post, but here goes:

What I think you are saying is that the strength to climb 8a is attainable for all? Well if so, and I stand by my first diagnosis of climbers as egotistical and ambitious, then it must be talent they lack.

In reply to Just askin':

No the point is that egotistical and ambitious doesn't always translate to being willing to put the effort in to train/get better. I don't know ANY people that don't climb hard that train systematically, have analysed their weakesses, and are addressing them. But I know plenty of 8a climber (inc me) who do just that.

In reply to Agent Moog:

I have had over 3000 climbers stay here over the past 3 years.

I know only 4 have climbed 8a out of all those!!!

Do your own calculations..

Sam Orange

In reply to Sam M:

I'm not saying that lots of people have climbed 8a, I'm sure the figure is very low. My point is merely that the main ingredient in climbing 8a is dedication and belief, not some god given talent and strength that's dished out to the lucky few only.

In reply to DEvans:

Outdoors?

100 ish UKers i reckon..

In reply to Sam M: how much does it cost to stay at yours ?

i'd say there's prob pretty high correlation between strong climbers and poor climbers with the later less likely to spash out on guest houses when they could camp

In reply to Agent Moog:

Sorry Agent I was just using your post to reply to the masses..

Sam :0)

In reply to Bored:

Anything from 65 euros a night for a room or camping at 9 so we have all types, rich and poor...

actually the hardest climber I know at the moment climbs 8b and has a real job as a jeweller...

Sam

In reply to Agent Moog:

Well I could ask what you mean by "hard" (because 8a ain't hard any more, whatever the threads on here might try and argue), but I do know climbers who are not climbing 8a and yet take all those approaches you describe; train hard and regular, look at weaknesses, etc and still stuck at 7b or 7c. What else can it be but some kind of talent that they are lacking?

In reply to Sam M:

should have said he is Spanish and that is working grade at the moment is 8c+ is climbs 3 times a week thats all..

sam orange

In reply to Sam M: eye - but there's dozens of them in Sheff who don't and without meaning to cause disrespect prob wouldn't stay in guest house's on their climbing trips but stay in the climbers doss or with locals

In reply to Bored:

Funny that!! but we have had loads of the ard sheffield lot here already as there are no decent refugies on the Blanca...

Sam

In reply to whispering nic:

Wrong on the first bit (unless it a very weak beast with little to no stamina) and my footwork is improving. Very slowly, but it is getting slightly better.

Andy F

In reply to Just askin':

I would be suprised if training coudn't raise any fit, active, and reasonably young (obviously if they're 50 now, it's going to be very difficult) climber from 7b/7c to 8a. If you can climb 7b/c then technically you have what it takes to climb 8a, minus strength and stamina and perhaps tenacity or vision. As I don't know the people to whom you refer, I don't know what sort of training they do. Maybe they still don't do enough/try hard enough at it/haven't successfully addressed their weaknesses, or maybe they simply havn't been training long enough. It can take years to reach 8a. I climbed in the 7s for 6 years before doing an 8a. I'd suggest that they keep trying.

In reply to Tyler:

you are right, you very rarely see people doing an 8a or above , i,ve only actually seen 10 people actually doing an 8a in as many years, either @ malham or ravens bore.

Seen lots of people , including me, haging on bolts trying to figure out an 8a, But doing one totaly different.

I'd say tried an 8a 2,000 climbed an 8a 500

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: Sorry Pete, couldn't hear you over the sound of all those tumbleweeds going past.

In reply to Agent Moog:

Well I guess neither of us really know! But I climbed 8a in the 80s and know some things about training and they seem to be doing everything right to me. And they're younger than me, and still worse than me!

Then again, and shooting down my own argument, I don't think I'm especially talented. At all.

In reply to Just askin':

Well there you go then. there could be many reasons that they havn't climbed 8a. One thing I've learnt over the years is how to put more effort in when climbing. I used to fall (drop) off things when in reality I still had a lot of strength left. Some very strong and fit people don't climb hard, cos they let go when it starts feeling hard.

In reply to Agent Moog:

Dougie always used to say "When you fall off you've only got two moves left in you" which is pretty much the same thing.

In reply to Agent Moog:
There is a big difference between inherent (genetic) ability, and having trained hard.

Some people I know have managed Sport 7a with hardly any training at all. It is these people who's bodies are just better designed for climbing hard; their tendons attach to the their bones a few mm further in the right direction, their muscles heal a little quicker, they have a perfect natural power/weight ratio etc. When these people start training hard, they will reach 8a and probably beyond.

I personally have been training quite hard to be able to climb Sport 7a. I am not a naturally talented climber; for years Sport 6a was an achievement, and it's only since I really worked on my climbing and concentrated on training my weakpoints have I managed to get better. If I continue at this rate I reckon that I should be able to RP 7b+ or maybe even 7c, but 8a is a whole lot further away. If I ever get there it will be the result of a lot of hard work.

So saying 'any fit, young healthy person should be able to climb 8a' is just bollocks. 7a, yes I'd agree - the vast majority of climbers could climb 7a if they put several months of training in. 8a is six grades higher and lot more work for your average joe.

In reply to Just askin':

Duh!
8a is exactly as hard as it was twenty years ago (but maybe a little more polished) that's what the grading system's there for. There are more people climbing at that level due to easier access to training facilitie etc. Just because a minute portion of people have climbed 9a doesn't mean 8a isn't that hard anymore, it just means it isn't that hard anymore for Messrs McClure, Graham, Pou et al

In reply to Just askin':

As ever with these types of threads the actuallity is probably somewhere in the middle. Almost all people who climb relatively hard (and I think we can include 8a as hard) are likely to have some sort of talent / aptitude for climbing / sport compared to the average man on the street. Having that aptitude also makes it more likely that they will show the dedication required since they will more quickly see the improvment. If you take a class of 10 year old kids they will have different apptitudes and capabilities for sport why does anyone think that it is any different for climbing? I think the argument that anyone can climb 8a is simply wrong - some climbers who have achieved this goal are in the class of working routes for months / training specifically etc but you couldn't possibly argue that they were at the bottom of the genetic ability pool for climbing.

At the same time neither is 8a that hard anymore - these days its a legitimate target for many climbers who can bring together a modicum of talent with dedication to the sport and the 'wasting' of a good chunk of their free time.

In reply to Agent Moog:


what does this even mean. Climbing hard sport routes is all about strength and stamina, technique required on a route you are going to spend days working is easily obtainable. I think you underestimate the difference between 7c and 8a for those of us not gifted at climbing. I always thought I was capable of climbing 8a and was in the "anyone can do it with a bit of aplication" camp. Then I got on one and found the difference between 7c and 8a is huge. Take Raindogs, famous for having no hard moves (for the grade) and New Dawn a hard 7c famous for having a hard move (for the grade) and yet there are several moves as hard or harder than the crux of ND on RD. so at the bare minimum to climb a stamina 8a you need more power than is required to do a powerful 7c and the difficulty with RD is not the moves but the stamina.

I bet tht makes no sense!

In reply to Sam M: mmmm....not sure you have if you've only had 4 climbers climbing over 8a

In reply to Alun:

I see your point, some people need less training than others, but that's life. Thing is it's just degrees. Having climbed 7b+, to you 8a looks miles off, but 7a looks easy enough so that anyone could do it with the right application/training/etc. I climb harder than 8a, and think the same thing but with 8a. From above you see how reasonable it is. Now I'm not saying that it would be practical for everyone to climb 8a. If you're totally useless at climbing and adapting to training it might take someone 20 years of full time climbing and training to climb 8a - clearly not practical for most. But, my position is that technically, it's possible.

In reply to whispering nic:

Which is why so many have climbed 8a or above. Between you and me, we could probably think of over 100 and that's just people we've climbed with.

Andy F

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Hmm, there is a guy here at work who has climbed F8a and climbing isn't his only freetime activity + he has a young family that will no doubt eat into some of his time. His job is basically sedentary. Conversely I have a mate who climbs regularly, trains very hard, does a physical job that allows him to do yet more training, yet to the best of my knowledge has led to F7c, maybe F7c+ but certainly not F8a.

So, basically there are several factors that have to be taken into account. As to whether F8a is hard: it depends from where you look.

Bob

In reply to Agent Moog: Exactly. I know people who just need pointing at the right 8a and they'd get it quite quickly (I'm talking to you Ian. 8a is just another grade, but there is a big mental jump to make when climbing 8a, as it's a 'magical' number.

Andy F

In reply to Tyler:

Climbing grades are funny though. If you need only 1% more strength to do any moves on a route, then the route will seem impossible (you can't even do a single move!), but in reality getting 1% stronger is attainable. When you are at your limit, the next step is immense, but once past it, you see that it's only a small notch up. This is one reason why good climbers find it hard to grade lower down the scale. To a 7c climber, 8a is miles harder, to an 8c climber there's not much in it.

In reply to Agent Moog:

If every 7b+ can climb 8a by training harder do you think every 8a climber (and by extension every 7b+ climber) can climb 8b if they train harder, or 8c etc. Is there a limit that "anyone" can climb or is the reasn lots of people have never climbed 9a becuase they haven't applied themselves sufficiently?

In reply to Bob:

I think we are agreeing - other factors such as genetic ability (in all its forms) do matter. My other argument was that saying that anybody can climb 8a is pretty obviouly rubbish - if it was true then we should be able to find the climber with the least ability out of the 2000 (or whatever) who have climbed 8a and he should have less 'natural talent' for climbing that more than 95% of the population!

In reply to Agent Moog: There are many more people who are physically capable of climbing at this grade but are not prepared for the mental battle required. Sport climbing is constantly refered to as 'no more than gymnastics' dismissing the mental fortitude required not only to train for the grade but more importantly to accept failure and keep on keepin' on.

There is a well know climber in the Peak who spent 5-7 (depending who you ask!) years on Mecca before finally doing it. It takes someone with an extremely strong will to take that sort of battering and keep trying.

Contrast this with a young strong climber who waltzed up a couple of 7b's on the catwalk so I offered him the blunt end for a dabble on Raindogs, after failing to get much past the first bolt he gave up ! even though he was certainly capable of physically doing the climb, he was`not prepared to move out of his comfort zone, it all just 'seemed' too hard.

In reply to Tyler:

Personally I think that's correct, although as a limit is reached (don't know where that limit is) there will be a drop off. Injury starts to kick in as well. the harder the climbing gets, the more factors become limiting (time, genetics, facilities, coaching etc) and so there will be a drop off in people climbing them. But think about it, how many 8b climbers are at their actual physical limit where biologically they can't gain fitness or strength? Very few. By tweaking what they do it's generally always possible to get better, but the time/effort versus gains trade off becomes smaller, so most don't bother, or are happy with their achievements.

I think one reason that climbing constantly gets harder, is that once one person has shown what is necessary, others follow.

In reply to Tyler:
I've seen enough different body types climbing 8a to convince me that genetics isn't a factor.
When people argue that it's down to genetic advantage, they devalue the hard work that average punters put in to climb 8a.

In reply to coconutter:

I think your reading what you want to read. Saying f8a isnt that hard isnt saying its easy its saying that its achievable. If it was said about f8c or f9a or any other grade or limit of any other sport i'd agree it was absolute tripe but i'm going off the people i've seen climb and the people I regularly see climbing at higher grades. From an almost outsiders perspective though as a boulderer anyway i'm giong solely off seeing people over a couple of years training and pushing their own limits and from that its pretty obvious that grades of that order are achievable for a lot of people. Its getting close to the borderline of needing oodles of talent though. BTW, i'm trying to work out who you are from the bowderstone but as you dont have a profile I dont have anywhere to start. Are you the guy I met there when it was raining? If you are then your definitely guilty of hiding behind an anonymous profile
p

In reply to Serpico: Your right. it's not genetics, a huge proportion of it is mental, the ability to push yourself far enough, train enough and get out there enough.

Andy F

In reply to Serpico:

I still argue it's partly genetics - are you really saying that 100% of 25 year olds would be capable of climbin 8a.

I'm not devaluing the effort that punters put in and nor should you devalue the effort of the uber-punters who put in the effort but don't get up to 8a.

I'm a punter, I haven't climbed 8a, maybe I could climb 8a - at the same time I'm relatively sporty and I was pretty decent at sport at school, I'm sure I have some sort of genetic advantage over the kids who always got picked last in team games and walked round the cross country.

In reply to Ian Patterson: There's no maybe about it. I know you could climb 8a, it's just a matter of getting the right one. Your technique and stamina are top-notch, get some more strength and you'll soon have one in the bag.

Andy F

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Its obviously partly genetics. Someone of 5ft tall whos got a naturally heavy body, poor co-ordination and cant build muscle easily is not going to climb hard. Maybe theres something in the tall wiry climbers who seem to dominate sport climbing though. The Spanish climbers seem to have similar body types (probably with exceptions) and theres a huge number of them who've climbed 9a (Lets not start on that one though)
p

In reply to andy farnell:

So the reason you have never climbed 8b is because you haven't wanted or trained for it enough? I'm not being facetious here, I'm genuinely interested in what people think is possible. Agent Moogs idea that anyone can climb as hard as they want makes me wonder why Ben Moon never climbed 8c+ or Dave graham 9b, they don't lack application

In reply to andy farnell: are our brains not genetically determined ?

In reply to Tyler:

Ben did climb 8c+. Dave has never tried a 9b. Dave is earning a nice living, bouldering everyday, and getting paid for it. He has no motivation to train for 9b. Dave shot up to 9a without much effort, there's no reason why he couldn't climb harder, except not really wanting to (and really wanting something is different to saying he wouldn't think it was nice).

Plus: give him time! He's only 20 something - another 20 years of climbing and training ahead.

In reply to Agent Moog:

Ben never climbed 9a. Ostensibly he did lack application - he gave up sportclimbing after 3 years lack of success on his project.

In reply to Tyler:

Wrong in the first part, right in the second part

Andy F

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:


Are you refering to AndyF?

In reply to Serpico:
Sorry Andy

In reply to Serpico: hey, i'm 5'7, with a light body, can't build muscle, have no co-ordination and am never going to climb hard.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

and you wear glasses. they hold me back too
p

In reply to andy farnell:

You two arent brothers are you

In reply to andy farnell:

sorry, I was going off your profile but you get the idea, replace 8b with 8c or 9a or whatever.

In reply to Adam Lincoln: Done any 8a's yet Adam ?

In reply to Serpico:

WTF?! What's an 'average punter' then if genetics has nothing to with it?

If you don't admit that genetics has something to do with it, then you are devaluing the hard work that average punter (i.e. me!) has put in to climb 7a, let alone 8a!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Nope, he's me old man

Andy F

(sorry Serpico)

In reply to andy farnell:

(only jesting guys) Eveyone know Micks his brother, i mean its obvious to look at them

In reply to Alun:

I was refering to genetic advantage, all you have to be is average, and put the work in.

So you're saying that you train every bit as hard as I do, train as often as I do, and make the sacrifices I do, but I was just born lucky?

In reply to Serpico:


Not with your looks

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:
Bugger, you made me laugh!

In reply to Serpico:

Oh come on - genetic ability is well studied fact and exists in all traits, not just natural climbing ability. I have accepted that, even if I devote my entire life to climbing specific training, I will never be as good as say, Chris Sharma. Never. I have no idea how hard you climb, but if it's above 8a - I'm 99.99% certain that I could train as hard as you and never reach that grade.

But the key point is that in saying that, I am not devaluing Sharma's dedication to training, just in the same way I wouldn't dare to rubbish your dedication to training.

Let's put this another way - could you run 100m is less than 10 seconds, even if you trained for it for the rest of your life? I very much doubt it - and yet you can still respect the fact that Linford Christie, or anybody esle who has managed this amazing feat, has had to work phenomenally hard to reach it. Other people have worked just as hard as he, and never broken 10.1 seconds.

In reply to Alun: But we're not talking about the level Sharma climbs, we're talking about 8a.

In reply to Serpico: I'm not naturally talented, strong, loaded with stamina or good looking, but I got to 8a through hard work and effort (didn't help the looks though). If I can reach 8a then I'm sure lots more could, if they put the time in (and they'd still be better looking than me).

8a is the new HVS

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Loads could, but loads won't - 'cause it does take damn hard work. That's the point isn't it?

In reply to andy farnell:


Maybe not but I'm ure chicks dig you more now you've climbed 8a!

In reply to Tyler: My missus is a non-climber and doesn't care what grade I climb, as long as I'm back in time for tea...

Andy F

In reply to SARS:

Yep, and that's the crux of it. Lots of people could climb 8a, but don't because they can't be arsed/just want to go bouldering/only go for the onsight and never work a route/haven't got the patience etc etc.

Andy f

In reply to andy farnell:

I'm sure lots more people could - the question really is whether all people or all people of average ability and above(however we measure that) could. Hopefully we can agree that at the very bottom of the genetic pool as far as climbing ability goes (weak fingers, no muscle or ability to build muscle, no sense of balance, lung capacity of an unfit mouse etc, etc) you get people who couldn't climb 8a ever. It that is true then the line must fall somewhere further up and I guess the question is about where that is. And the argument of 'I've climbed it and I'm no good' proves little really and could be considered a bit of inverted snobbery reallt. For this argument to prove that you or Serpico are actually in the bottom half of climbers for ability we would need to see the 50 per cent of climbers who were better than you when training / climbing the same amount who you then overtook with your dedicated training regime (in your case I gues that would be 'Anybody fancy Pex this evening'). Actually even that would only work if we could assume that people who started climbing were a normalised cross section of the population.

And by the way you may be weak but you're still loads stronger than me!

In reply to David Peters:

We'll take that as a 'no' then

In reply to andy farnell:


Quote of the day!

In reply to andy farnell:

Maybe not 'lots' but certainly 'some'.

But if you believe that genetic ability has nothing to do with it, then you can apply your arguments to equally well to 9a.

Who's the better climber - the one who reaches 8a because he/she has trained hard, watched their diet, given up other hobbies etc., or the 14 year-old wonder kid who started climbing two year ago and waltzes up them? It's the same grade, but more of my respect goes to the person who's trained hard, because it's more of an achievement.

Now let's move down the grades slightly. 7a may not seem hard to you, but down the average climbing wall, how many people do you see leading at that grade? Very few. 7b, even less. So if any of the thousands of 6-something punters put in some dedication, started climbing-specific training and then started climbing 7a, my respect would go to them.

My argument is that it doesn't matter what grade you climb - if you have set yourself a goal and trained to reach it, that deserves respect - because you acknowledge that reaching a certain level is going to be harder for some than others. Saying "anybody can reach 8a with a bit of work" is insulting to many people who have put effort into reaching 7a, let alone 8.

In reply to Alun:

>Saying "anybody can reach 8a with a bit of work" is insulting to many people who have put effort into reaching 7a, let alone 8.

No it's not. No-one was saying anyone can reach 8a with a bit of work, they were saying that anyone (that's fit young ish and relatively healthy) can reach 8a with perhaps HUGE amounts of work. That's the point. Some will do it easily, and they will be the talented, genetically gifted ones. If you are neither of the above, then 8a is still feasable with HUGE amounts of work. 8a is not so hard that genetic factors will prevent people from getting there if they really try.

So if you put lots of effort into climbing 7a, well done, but don't think that there aren't people out there that are no more gifted than you that havn't climbed 8a with even more hard work.

In a way you are indicative of why more people don't climb 8a. You train quite hard, but seem unwilling to accept that with more training and dedication you could climb harder. Most other people think the same, which is why they don't climb harder either.

In reply to Ian Patterson: Of course there's lots of people who will never climb 8a due to an inherent lack of the required strength/stamina/ability. My point was that even without the ability and talent of the very best climbers, the 'average Joe' can achieve a good standard of climbing through sheer hard work, perspiration, dedication and determination. The 8a grade is the arbitary number we've chosen here, but it may as well be E6 onsight, or Font 7b+ bouldering. Both of those are things which have been achieved by a large number of 'average Joe's' through sheer grit and effort (with a good chunk of luck thrown in as well). There is a view that 'I'll never climb that as it's too hard', so people don't try it. Those who do try, realise that it is within their abilities, if they try hard enough.

As Homer Simpson once famously said "If something is to hard to do, then it's not worth doing", which just isn't true (unusually for Homer, he got that one wrong).

Andy F

In reply to Alun:

This is about 8a.
No argument there. I consider myself the former, and I've climbed with the latter.
It took me about 7yrs to get to 7a, and about another 4 to get to 8a. After 4-5 yrs of climbing 8a it's only this year that I've climbed harder. None of it's come easily to me, and I'm certainly not a natural.

I don't think anybody is saying 'a bit of work', what I'm saying is a lot of hard work, over years.

In reply to Serpico: Many on here don't realise that the majority of those who have climbed 8a have put in a lot of effort over many years to achieve their desired goal. It hasn't come naturally to the the likes of you and me, we were just prepared to work at it. If more people did this, then more would achieve the same level. I still think a lot of it is mental and not physical. Many lack the belief that they can climb 8a and as a result fail to do so.

Andy F

In reply to Agent Moog: Reading this thread has confirmed my own view as to why I never managed 8a when I was pushing things in the early 90s.
1. Failure to address weaknesses - in my case I was never big on upper body strength and didn't train to improve it particularly.
2. Lack of patience - could never motivate myself to keep working a route after a few hours on it.
3. I'm just a punter at heart!

I wonder if I can motivate myself to start training when I move back to Oz and try and crack grade 29 (8a) in my 40s?!

In reply to DaveC at Work:
I think I was 32 before I climbed 8a.
Number changes are the big sport climbing goals ie: moving from 7s to 8a, or 12s to 13a(7c+) in the states. What's (if any) the big Oz sport grade to aspire to?

In reply to andy farnell:

I agree - I haven't anywhere near to 8a yet, but I'm trying bloody hard.. I know I can do it, I'm nearly strong enough and I'm putting the effort into endurance and stamina.

'What are you prepared to give up?' is a good question...

I've cut out loads of yummy food, cut down massively on the booze... I've barely surfed all year, hardly ridden my lovely mountain bike.. paid my £5 two times a week to do puke inducing circuits on the wall.. turned down a surfing holiday in Indonesia next Spring.. not 'gone out cragging' for the day... gone to bed early. None of this is training but I reckon its whats needed to push my limits.

In reply to Serpico: I would guess the target for aspiring number crunchers would probably be 29 or 30 (8a - 8a+) . I have serious doubts as to whether I will have the time to have a serious crack at it (still got to work for a living unfortunately) but if I got the chance I could be tempted.

In reply to andy farnell:

I just stole your post to respond to, sorry. But for a reason:

8a is the new HVS.

Not quite, of course, but the point is well made and correct and what I meant earlier when I said 8a isn't hard anymore. An 8a is hard in the sense that it will have hard moves (usually, though RD - baby 7c max - and others make me wonder sometimes) but it isn't hard when compared with what people are climbing now. It used to be a "magic" grade - perhaps THE magic grade in the golden age of sport climbing (OK, I've been around a while). Now it isn't. It's just another route and people who climb at 8a and no more are just another climber.

In reply to DaveC at Work:
I'm pretty sure that J-B Tribout's grandfather was 50 before he climbed his first 8a.

In reply to Serpico:

Didn't Marc le Menestrels old man climb an 8a at 55 or something??

In reply to Serpico:

yeah, age is bollocks. John Hart still climbs 8a and there was a german guy climbing 8a in the eighties (when it WAS hard).

In reply to Just askin': >though RD - baby 7c max

You're 'avin' a Lauugggh m8

I'd like to see your grades for the routes either side, Connect 4 7b+ and Chiselling 6c+ perhaps ?

In reply to Serpico:

There were two Austrian mountain guides climbing up to 8a in Australia a few years back who were both in there 50s. They had actually started climbing back in the days of hemp ropes!!
My biggest problem is that a 10 year lay-off from any form of climbing (1994-2004) has somewhat reduced my condition (severe understatement alert here!)

In reply to DEvans:

Right.. I'm off to do some weighted deadhangs

In reply to Tim Gardener:

Throw it out, and reel 'em in.....

RD - No hard moves and a bit of a pump. 40 feet long. Mmm, desperate.

Connect 4 - probably easy/middle 8a. Did it second try the year it was done.

Chiselling - no idea. Never been near it as far as I know. Now Personal Services - that's a different story.

In reply to Just askin':

And Dougie did it in ten minutes flat as Connect 3..."Well it seemd harder to stop and clip so I kept going".

In reply to Just askin':

Who are you Just Askin'?

In reply to Just askin': I presume that's Dougie Hall you're talking about, a true climber's climber. I saw him a couple of times around 1989 when I first came over here, one of the very best I've seen.

In reply to Agent Moog:

I'm me - who are you?

In reply to Just askin':

Not an ex 80's early 90s (and now?) wad.

In reply to DaveC at Work:

yes, Dougie Hall indeed. As you say a great climber and a truly nice guy, Living proof that genetics both help and hinder - he was too short to be a typical climber yet strong as f***. And brave, too.

In reply to Agent Moog:

Wad?!

In reply to Tyler:

Yeah

In reply to Just askin':

Well Steve did the Mecca Extension for a warm down last week so I guess that makes it about 7c+

In reply to Just askin':

Like what used to called "Tigers" !

In reply to Just askin': Used to here a lot about Dougie from Kim Carrigan back in Oz in the mid-80s, I gather they climbed together a lot when KC was dossing about over here in 1981.

In reply to Tim Gardener:

Err, silly analogy of the week award anyone?

In reply to Agent Moog:

i thought they were Hong Kong, Thailand and now PRC?

In reply to DaveC at Work:

A bit before my time, but yeah I guess they did. Dougie is climbing again now - he gave up for a while. Still winding it out and thinking nowt of it.

In reply to Just askin': Bumped into Dougie at the Cornice earlier this year, he said he hadn't climbed much since the early/mid '90's. He was still crusing 7a+'s in a pair of Boreal Fire's !!!

Andy F

In reply to Just askin':

Correct, but they're not also wads.

In reply to Agent Moog:

I thought not - I guess I'm saying that I#m still not entirely cognisant of the meaning of "Wad"

In reply to Just askin':

A wad is a strong, impressive climber. There weren't too many climbers ticking 8a 2nd go in '87.

In reply to Agent Moog:

There aren't too many around today!!!!

Andy F

In reply to Agent Moog:

I was never that then, and you'd be surprised how many folk there were even then (and I think it was later than that anyway -89?)

And anyway, it was a Yorkshire one so it doesn't count.

In reply to Agent Moog:

Well put. I'll agree to that.

In reply to DaveC at Work:

The photo on my profile is a 32/33 (ZA) route, with a bloke well in his 40s on it. You should have no problem

In reply to Kipper: I'll take any encouragement that's going!

In reply to David Peters:

>Sport climbing is constantly refered to as 'no more than gymnastics' dismissing the mental fortitude required not only to train for the grade but more importantly to accept failure and keep on keepin' on.

This is also required in gymnastics, to a very considerable degree. The parallel is actually very close, although I agree that people who use this expression probably don't always realise it.

jcm

In reply to Just askin':

8a isn't hard anymore.
But if you think raindogs is 7c [what!?], how about Sardinia's Wonderland and Kalymnos' Orion?!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Blimey John has the familiar 'anonymous' has left us?

In reply to Just askin':
usually, though RD - baby 7c max - and others make me wonder sometimes


Horses C**k. Put your ego away FFS

In reply to whispering nic:

Why? does yours need the extra space?
p

In reply to whispering nic:

It's not my ego, it just isn't a very hard 8a! So much so it's 7c. The evidence is all over this thread - most people who have done one 8a are claiming it. Other evidence, too: it's old, short, climbed a lot and the moves are not very hard - even in eighty-whatever it was 6b.

Grow up and accept it - it's not very difficult!

In reply to DEvans:
how hard is 8a?

only those who have climbed it will know. anyway, isnt it all relative to the individual? someone who climbs vs every weekend will find it very, very, very hard.

conversely, mr 9b onsight wont fnd it particularly hard...

but on the whole, it had got to be considered 'hard' as a minority of climbers have/ can climb the magic grade.

In reply to Just askin':

Ooooh!

Hotbad Peteell and Just 'askin havin a go, the two people who's statements I might have dared to question.

I can see you like the last word so this could go on forever...

quote Malcolm Smith "aye raindogs is quite hard for the grade"
I've certainly dogged a few and this isn't an easy one - wot is your problem(s)?

In reply to ragnarok:
>... someone who climbs vs every weekend will find it very, very, very hard.

I climb VS (or much less, quite often) every weekend. Is it just 3 'very' hards I need before attempting somethibg harder?

In reply to ragnarok:

Got to be said. It's 'ard, but it's not that 'ard.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Beautiful... I always needed an 8a mantra. Now I have one. Thanks!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

So whats wrong with 'Bugger me, I appear to have fallen off again! '

In reply to DEvans: 4 out of 10 of our shop staff have, that's not a bad ratio, but probably not representative of shop staff in general......

In reply to David Peters:

No argument for getting back on again!

In reply to Rob at V12 Outdoor: And Raindogs is definitely 8a

In reply to Rob at V12 Outdoor:
Whats Rainshadow ... Actually, ill just google it

In reply to FredMead:

Search in the databases here. Oh all right: http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_routes.html?area=3&name=rainsh...

Bob

In reply to Ian Patterson:
It seems sensible to ask you & indirectly, Tyler. as you both seem to have a bit of logic on your sides... looking at this from the other end - how many 8a's & above are ther in thr country? And just how often do you see people on them? I agree, there are alot of talented climbers about, and this is probably not a newsworthy event any longer - neither is running the marathon in under 2Hrs 25Min, but there's avery small poulation of UK men who've done it! As others say - there's a lot of 'churn' in the rock-pop so the count would probably be 2-4 times those currently operating.
More to my interest - I'd guess the average climber (median, not mean) would be operating at about E1 outdoors?

In reply to Alun:
Very True! The 8a-ers are v keen and tend to operate in small, like-minded groups, easy to assume everyone else is the same, which isn't so.