UKC

A while ago my partner (notably during an argument about me thinking too much about climbing and not enough about her) told me she thought all climbers were arrogant. At the time i thought she was just annoyed however its an opinion she has voiced many times since. I hadnt really given it any thought until last night when another non climbing friend voiced the same opinion. She now thinks its not possible for someone to lead and not be arrogant and selfish. Apparently we are all selfish because we do not consider the impact our death through our activities would have on family and friends.

I wouldnt have thought I was anymore arrogant or selfish than the next person, however its difficult to make truthful judgements about negative aspects of your own personality. The latest comments have got me thinking, coupled with recently read articles by Joe Simpson and Andy Kirkpatrick touching on this subject.

So im just musing at this late hour before bed, if an above average level of arrogance and a selfish nature are a prerequisite for a climber who leads in any facet of the sport. Can we all be tarred with the same brush?

In reply to deeje: Its a stupid point of view, driving and crossing the road results in more deaths, as does smoking. Climbers dont want to die anymore than a child crossing the road, ridiculous.

In reply to deeje:

Is it not just as arrogant and selfish to attempt to restrict someone's freedom of choise in the way they live their lives?

In reply to Al Evans:

Agreed.

Also typo in previous post (pedants beware) choise=choice

In reply to Al Evans and Katonka: both are points i came back with - boy did i get an earful ;->

She drives fast and sharp a lot of the time, and i put gear in whenever possible and avoid runnouts as much as i can so i guess it could be argued.....

However its now not just my concerned partners point of view - ive had this from a few different non climbers

In reply to deeje:
It is really late so I may be brief but although my family and friends might call me some things, it would NOT be arrogant and selfish. I put climbing on hold for 23 years for work and a family and am very pleased to return to the sport again now.
It does take up some time and commitment however (and a lot of my thoughts) but then my husband loves watching football and my girls have their own interests. People around me seem to admire and encourage my climbing as they know how much it means to me. And I'm not planning to die, even when I lead.
Would we call smokers selfish? They really are risking their lives and their early deaths have an immense impact on family and friends. Sorry, I'm ranting.. should go to bed really.
Sarah.

In reply to Al Evans:

Al, I often share your views , I was typing my reply when yours went up. Maybe will meet you one day when I'm out with Rosie in the future?..

In reply to deeje: I have known two people who gave up climbing because of 'family' pressures of this sort. One ended up killing himself in a car accident (driving too fast on a mountain road & slid off into a deep gully.) The other managed 10 years without climbing but acquired a taste for various chemical stimulants which only ended when he took up climbing again!
Make what you will of these two examples.

In reply to deeje:

My g/f says EXACTLY the same thing to me weekly!
She maintains that I am selfish and arrogant becuase I am willing to risk my life even though I have children and her to leave behind.....I have always retorted with the fact that you shouldn't stop "living" and experiencing life just becuase you have family. I am pretty sure my son will appreciate being taken climbing in later years rather than have a bitter father who resents his mother for "making him stop" doing what he really loves to do.
She gets especially angry if I tell her I did a solo...

In reply to mzzzv: Well given the weather, Mita and I will be on Stanage on Sunday.

In reply to deeje:


Are ALL non-climbers that ignorant??

What is this "death" bollox?? I could name you 2,000 trad leads in the UK that any competent climber would struggle to do more than scrape a kneecap or knuckle on, let alone break any limbs, let alone come close to the slightest waft of death.

Selfish in pursuit of our dreams, goals, inspirations, passion....that's another issue.

In reply to Fiend:


I really do have to agree with you. Climbing is as safe as you make it.



They wouldnt be obcessions if they didnt consume people. Would they so easily label the man who works all hours to furthur his career obcession, neglecting his family and ending up in an early grave with a heart attack from stress? No, people see him as a hard worker, but who ever wished theyd worked more on their death bed? I see him as an idiot personally. At least climbers obcess about something enjoyable! And besides, its no worse than the man who went to play rugby on a sunday and ends up paralysed or dead after a scrum gone wrong, or the horse rider who ended up dead after being thrown. But they seem to be acceptable sports to die or get injured for, perhaps because you see them on the TV.

I think its all a matter of skewed perspective, because until theyve tried it non climbers dont realise how safe it can be.

In reply to Anni:

Good post. There are many forms of obsession and perhaps some are socially acceptable because they are common and familiar, whilst climbing is viewed as esoteric and....weird.

In reply to Fiend:

I guess some non climbers find it hard to see how safe it is. I think though they choose to see it as dangerous!

I've taken my partner to the crag so she can watch and see it's safe. (She saw me take falls, bounce on the rope stretch and laugh about it) and I've taken her to the wall, which she loved, wants to do more of, and wants to lead not just be top-roped. However she is still convinced that one day I'll badly hurt myself or more.

My parents on the other hand, looked at my gear when I visited them on a trip, asked what it was all for, I explained about protection, leading, belaying, seconding, gear placement, and they said 'ok then, glad you've found something to do that you enjoy'.

In reply to deeje:

My girlfriend is a keen climber (when I force her!) but has the same opinion.

Not about climbing though, but about high altitude mountaineering. She is of the opinion that anyone doing that is selfish to the extreme if they have family, friends or even a single loved one.

I am undecided as to whether I agree or not. Every mountaineer assesses the risks continuously, but where there is significant risk of death I would consider them selfish. For example, anyone soloing the North Face of the Eiger, notorious for rock fall, I might consider selfish. Someone climbing Everest as part of an organised tour, I wouldn't.

Anyone on well protected rock routes where a few broken limbs is the order of the day most definitely isn't.

In reply to Eric the Red:

I think the chance of death on a commercial expedition to everest may be hifher than soloing the Eiger!

Only my two cents though.......

In reply to deeje:

you forgot to mention patronising if we are male as well.

In reply to deeje:
Random thoughts early(ish) on a Friday morning.

Selfishness is not in the act of climbing but can be seen around climbing for example wanting to do the good / crux pitch and stopping your partner doing it. It can be selfish to pick routes that you want to do without checking the views of your partner. Using you partner as nothing but a belay bunny is selfish. These things do happen but are kept in the community and are understood.

Climbing adds risk to your life, this cannot be denied no matter how much gear we place or how safe the routes are the risks of harm are increased if only by a tiny amount. Non climbers never see the thought put into making the activity safe so I can understand this point of view. I believe that we need a bit of risk to put the rest of our lives in perspective but this can only be my opinion as others may say that their lives are in perspective from the comfort of their arm chair.

I have a wife and new baby at home and I love them dearly. I am not planning to die soon.
I suspect that my biggest selfishness is that I do still want to get out, even if just to the wall for a couple of hours. I do this but worry that I should be at home helping out or doing things. In this regard I admit that I am selfish. I am lucky that my wife understands my climbing addiction and cannot stand me going cold turkey.

In reply to markAut:

That's not selfish! We all need our own time and space, and exercise. The positives far outweigh the time factor.

In reply to markAut:

Good points. I am selfish when it comes to climbing not because of the risk but because of the time I'm prepared to be away from the family.

Luckily for me my wife is a squash adict so she has her own time away.

In reply to deeje:

I totally agree with Anni and Fiend about the selfishness. I don't think I'm generally a selfish person, and certainly have no intention of sying or causing myself serious injury, BUT I did stay away from a family christening because I had a climbing trip booked, and frustrated friends/partners have moaned at me "all you want to do is go climbing isn't it?".

Arrogance? I think many people mistake self belief, self confidence, and a desire to succeed as arrogance. Yet these 2 qualities are essential in any trad climber intending to safely lead a route. I thought about backing off something recently, but then I thought "no, I don't want to come down, I know I can do this, and I want to do it". I probably voiced some of that as well as thought it. Is it arrogant? I don't think so, but someone who doesn't understand the mental approach necessary may see it as such.

In reply to deeje:

Not all, but we tend to be very self centred and self obsessed with our own ability, which tends to be utterly boring to anyone else.

Ask my wife!

In reply to deeje:

This has probably been said before, but you could apply this to any number of activities, driving being the most obvious, swimming (you could drown), golf, shooting, rugby, jogging, etc etc etc.
This sounds like a statement from someone who has never climbed and manifests a misunderstanding of the dangers of the sport.
If we all thought this, we wouldn't do anything if there is the potential of death. It is not arrogant or selfish to lead at all. I think there may be an aspect of jealousy of your activities.
My girlfriend is a non climber, and sometimes I climb more than I should, but that doesn't make her any less supportive of the activity itself. I have never considered climbers arrogant or selfish. But then I'm not climbing in the high E grades and I don't have shildren. Possibly then, the goalposts may change.

In reply to Trangia:
haha, too true. I guess in a way my climbing is selfish because i enjoy soloing, the question is just whether its more selfish for someone to stop me doing what i love... (as said above)

In reply to deeje:
At the E11/Set in Stone film show the Daves were asked about being selfish and both admitted they were (neither came across as being the slightest bit arrogant).

Dave Mcleods philosophy was simple, you only have one life, you ought to make the most of it, you don't want to waste it.

Or put another way - Whats the point of staying alive if you aren't going to live a little ?

In reply to deeje: my g/f and I tend to have a laught about it.

Although climbing consumes me as an activity and makes me selfish in the fact that I continually want to be climbing and not doing mundane things like work, shopping etc. I tend to work around this by spending time with her doing these things and also stuff that she wants to do after all I do love her and all.

However, she fully understands that climbing is my passion and that to stop me doing this would take a huge portion of me and ignore it and would then make me someone completely different and probably not the person she wanted to be with. The laughter bit comes from her saying that at least if I do die climbing she'll get the life insurance!!

In reply to deeje:

Surely EVERYONE is selfish - that's the whole point of having free will. It's just that some have a more holistic view of what's in their best interest.

I'm a much happier person when I get to go climbing a lot, rather than moping around making my wife miserable. So for me climbing is an act of pure altruism!

And arrogance - well that's just having the self-confidence to know I'm right!

I agree that saying were selfish for putting ourselves at (negligable) risk misses the point. After many a long conversation with my young lady the conclusion has been drawn that if you want to climb well then dedicating the time and effort needed will inevitably cause conflicts of interest. draghging partners out in the freezing cold to spot you on highball problems is selfish, training at the wall instead of helping out around the house is selfish... i could go on.

In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:
Come on, admit it everyone. The answer is arrogant? Maybe. Selfish? Too f***** right.

In reply to deeje:
Girlfriend and parents weren't too impressed with my climbing antics. I only generally boulder and solo short routes! However, their attitude was a result of not having seen me climb and imagining horror show solos 200ft up hanging from one finger. All have now spent a day out with me and have much more faith in my decision making and ability. Still it is selfish to spend time doing something self-absorbed like climbing when you could be spending quality time together!

In reply to Will_Thomas_Harris:
training at the wall instead of helping out around the house is selfish... i could go on.

No it's not really. I know, I've tried the martyr thing. It doesnt really help her at all. It is much more selfish being miserable, unsatisfied and uninspired.

In reply to Up the wall:

I've been down that road. after a full week end of feeling miserable but being there, the missus told me "Oh for Christ's sake, bugger off, go climbing and come back when you're normal again."

A.-

In reply to deeje:

I saw some interesting stats researching climbing safety where swimming came out as a more dangerous participation sport. I would think there's probably a wider 'distribution of safety' in climbing depending on whether you only ever top-rope Vdiffs or winter solo but on average it compares favourably with other sports. Much safer than scuba diving, paragliding etc. And a *hugely* safer activity than giving birth which leads me to my next point.

I would think in this day and age where we are struggling with sustaining and circumventing the environmental issues associated with an overpopulated planet that staying at home and reproducing would be BY FAR a more selfish act.

I think for anyone to think that the future of the planet will really be improved by producing another clone of themselves to consume even more resources and push futher the limits of our ecosystem is about as arrogant and selfish as you can get.

In reply to deeje:

I think it stand to reason that personality variables will be different in someone who relishes fear and challenges and someone who doesn’t. I wrote a dissertation on this area and my sample was - climbers!

Neuroticism was the biggest factor when comparing climbers to a group of ‘normals’. The levels of neuroticism even played a part in climbers being able to lead near their seconding ability!

Why do you think anti depressants have been recorded to up a grade?

In reply to IWL:

Probably applies to scuba divers too.


Interesting. Are these SSRIs? And are neurotic climbers in the same group as depressed or, say, social phobic climbers who are getting antidepressants?

In reply to quadmyre:
Where did you see this? Swimming in open water or in the pool? Giving birth once = how many routes led, I wonder?

In reply to jhenryb:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/education/statistics.htm

Average annual risk of death as a consequence of an activity
Activity associated with death Risk

Annual Risk

Maternal death in pregnancy
1 in 8,200 maternities

Surgical anaesthesia
1 in 185,000 operations

Scuba Diving
1 in 200,000 dives

Fairground rides
1 in 834,000,000 rides

Rock climbing
1 in 320,000 climbs

Canoeing
1 in 750,000 outings

Hang-gliding
1 in 116,000 flights

Rail travel accidents
1 in 43,000,000 passenger journeys

Aircraft accidents
1 in 125,000,000 passenger journeys

That works out at about 40 climbs is as dangerous as giving birth to one child. On average of course.

In reply to quadmyre:

From same site you have to do 830 climbs per year to make it as likely you'll die climbing as from cancer that year... On average.

In reply to quadmyre:


That means I survived the equivalent of giving birth to thirteen kids in one day.

Cool!

No wonder I was tired

In reply to john arran:

Ow!

In reply to deeje:

Arguments are great. I mean it's possible to have them without labelling whole groups of people unfairly as their stereotypes but I ask you, where's the fun in that?

You must really love her because I'm sure lots of other people are thinking the same as me - I'd have told her to f*ck right off.

In reply to Obi Wan:
>> She gets especially angry if I tell her I did a solo...

Don;t tell her then

In reply to deeje: I have always informed prospective partners that I am very selfish. When they realise that I am not joking they have tried to change me and then quickly given me the elbow (present partner apart!)

In reply to deeje: If you can read 'Where the Mountain Casts its Shadow; The Personal Costs of Climbing' by Marie Coffey, it is an interesting read covering this.

In reply to deeje:

Thanks for the interesting post.

My 2 cents:

Of course your selfish .. going and doing something for yourself *is* a selfish act, esp. when it's something you don't have to do .. unlike giving birth, crossing the road and all those other red herrings everyone else seems to like to compare climbing with .. LOL! if comparing climbing to giving birth is not arrogant I don't know what is.

Also anyone that say's climbing is not dangerous is doing something seriously wrong .. it's a fundamental aspect of climbing. Sure you lessen the risks to what you consider to be acceptable (another fundamental aspect of climbing) but to think you've some how made it 100% safe then your simply deluding yourself.

P.S. Try giving up motorcycling after a decade or two of freedom on the road. It's a whole lot harder than giving up climbing (IMHO .. wouldn't want to come across as being arrogant or anything)
P.P.S. I think your other half is in the wrong (for a whole bunch of reasons). But you should attempt to look after yourself while your out there climbing .. you owe your family at least that.

In reply to deeje:

Its my life, if I want to hang over the edge and dabble with death...I bloody will!

In reply to Al Evans:
Thanks for letting me know. I won't be able to make it as I'm in Manchester tomorrow so will need Sunday for the family. Maybe another time.