UKC

I have a new climbing partner and we have a significant weight difference (75kg, 130kg). We've been on a bit of a test campaign to find a way to become compatible as indoor lead climbing partners. Rope was a 9.8mm single, belay device was a click up.

Edelrid Ohm mk 1 did not provide enough resistance and a small fall would turn into a huge whip, abruptly stopped when the belayer's belay device was hard up against the ohm. I believe that the Ohm mk 2 and the ohmega provide similar levels of resistance to the ohm mk 1.

Next we tried clipping the first bolt of the neighbouring route, then the ohm on the first bolt of the climbing line, then running the rope straight up from there. This added too much resistance (like bolting one end of the rope to the floor), and it was impossible to give a soft catch.

Third option was to clip the first bolt of the neighbouring climb, then first bolt of the climbing line, then second bolt, third bolt etc. to add 2 90 degree bends in the rope. This hit the sweet spot- the belayer able to give soft catches but plenty of friction was added.

After doing some research on the other types of belay assistance/rope brakes, it looks as though the Raed Zaed is quite versatile for lower weight differences but won't work in our case (similar to Ohm) but that the Bauer ESPrESSI or The Bauer Zorro with the "basic" braking disc (not the "light" braking disc) should be within specification. We have purchased one and once it arrives we will test it out. If that goes well, the aim is to use it for multipitch sport climbing.

I'm posting this for two reasons- firstly, if anyone has any advice for belaying with a weight difference like this with a view towards alternating leads on multipitch sport, I would love to hear it. Secondly, it took a bit of trial and error as well as some research online to find a couple of solutions for indoor climbing, so I'm posting this in case its useful for anyone in a similar position.

Let me know if you have any ideas!

In reply to cacheson:

For indoors, how about a backpack or weight vest with 10-15kg or so for the 75kg person?  

Probably not feasible for outdoor multipitch - dragging that much extra weight up a crag wouldn't be fun.

In reply to cacheson:

Pies. Lots of pies!

In reply to cacheson: Are you actively trying to get a soft catch... if so pack that in, you're going to get one anyway.  Keep belayer close to wall etc... 

Is rope moving thro' the clickup or is it locking very quickly?

In reply to Myfyr Tomos:

Or negative pies for the partner!

In reply to turtlespit:

Yeah at this point that's the backup plan- bring two ropes and a haul bag with some added weight for the lighter person to even things out for belaying on a multipitch.

In reply to wbo2:

The click up is locking pretty much immediately (as it is designed to do). I'm considering taking some gloves and using a tuber (DMM pivot) to give a more dynamic catch next time while also using the added friction from the side clip.

In reply to cacheson:

Also, for the record I am not affiliated with any of these companies or their products in any way.

In reply to cacheson:

I have a weight difference that's similar (but only slightly less) and after trying everything got the best results with the Zorro.

Looking forward to hearing your results.

In reply to cacheson:

HMS from the anchor?

In reply to cacheson:

On a multi pitch sport route you won't get pulled up significantly as you will be tied in close to the anchor, though it will be pretty uncomfortable when you get slammed in tight to the wall.

You can belay direct off the anchor, this is quite common in the eastern Alps. I sometimes lead belay direct off the anchor with an Italian hitch, this can give a softer catch on multi pitch.

In your case I'd use a Gri Gri or similar attached direct to the anchor.

In reply to cacheson:

This sounds like a terrible idea

In reply to cacheson:

There's a similar difference (not quite as big, I'm nearer 120) between me and my usual climbing partner.  We don't do much leading, admittedly, and when I do I don't often fall off and will grab other holds in preference to taking a massive lob, but we do find the Ohm works as well as anything can in the circumstances (certainly compared to several weight bags or a ground anchor).

One thing I have noticed varies massively is rope thickness.  Modern skinny ropes don't give anywhere near as much friction as older style thicker ones.  But it is hard to buy thick ropes these days - if you have one it's a variable you might want to try.  Or maybe consider using weight bags *AND* the Ohm at walls?  That wouldn't work for multipitch sport though I suppose.

In reply to wbo2:

Careful with that with the Ohm.  The further out the belayer is, apart from the initial tug as the device moves up (about a foot of rope), the more grabby it is.  Counterintuitive but useful to know.  If the belayer is standing immediately under the Ohm there won't be much grab at all.  That's because it works by pulling the rope into a groove, which it won't do very well if the rope has a clear path through the device.

I'm not saying stand several metres away as that would pose other dangers, but a couple of feet out is probably most effective.  Worth experimenting with it.

In reply to Neil Williams:

It's simply not harder to buy 11mm lead ropes, as a quick search will prove. I'd argue with current delivery logistics it's never been easier.

In reply to Offwidth:

I went looking for a new 11mm lead rope not so long ago (for the same reason as the OP - extra friction with an Ohm) and didn't find any, most of them were 10.5mm at most.  But if it's now easy to get one then that will definitely help - I find the Ohm has considerably more friction with a thicker rope even if it is only *slightly* thicker.

Most 11mm on sale when I looked tended to be static or semi static.

I guess it might help the OP if you post a link to where you found 11mm dynamic at a reasonable price?

In reply to cacheson:

+1 for the + or - pies/weight vest suggestions.

Being a pielord myself, I resign myself to the fact that there are a subset of possible partners that I just can't climb in a pair with because it isn't safe. If we are talking indoors, a weight vest or weight bag clipped to the harness _might_ be a safe enough solution but when you start talking about outdoors on sport or trad where the partner, there are all sorts of reasons why that might not be practicable or safe. I wouldn't do it.

Also, you might want to test whether the feathweight ends up getting flipped upside down if wearing a weight vest. I know for sure that's what would happen if they put a heavy rucksack on and got pulled off the ground.

(although recently it seems I have managed to lose 5 pies, so hopefully another 15 will follow with the current mixture of discipline, bingeing and physical work).

In reply to cacheson:.

Get another new, lighter partner!

In reply to cacheson:

Two ohms in series? R(total) = R1 + R2

In reply to alex_th:

So electronics jokes aside, I did wonder about that, specifically with Ohm on first bolt plus Ohmega on second bolt. However, if I understand correctly there needs to be an angle between the two sides of the device, i.e. it won't work properly if it is a straight line (the same reason for Neil William's recommendation about belay positioning above). However, I haven't found any info on this in a datasheet or manual for the ohmega yet, so maybe it could be used in this manner... We'll see once it is available...

In reply to Tyler:

With standard equipment and techniques? Certainly. That's why I'm asking for advice on specific equipment and techniques.

In reply to henwardian:

Thanks, that's helpful. I certainly can't see a version of this approach working for trad climbing, and have no intention of trying. If we get a good system in place for indoor stuff, then for friendly, uncommitting and easy bolted sport it hopefully won't be too great a step... we'll see how it goes. But yeah, we have some more experiments to do indoors first.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Weight bags + Ohm seems to have a lot of advantages. I'll take an appropriate bag to the climbing wall when I go next time and try it out.

In reply to dan gibson:

Yeah, the slamming is what I want to avoid, for both parties!

Thanks for the tips- I think I'll try playing around with this concept and see how it goes.

In reply to cacheson:

Search for "fixed point belay" for further information regarding belaying direct off anchors in multipitch context.

One big benefit to the fixed point belay is that the belayer is taken out of the system. This means that if you take a high fall-factor fall off the belay, the belayer doesn't get mashed. A non-mashed belayer is significantly more likely to hold a violent fall.

I haven't use FPB myself yet, but it's on my list of skills to practice.

Remember also that indoor falls have very little rope drag, which increases force felt by belayer. Climbing on rock with possibly the rope being pulled around features will add rope drag, reducing force on belayer.

In reply to cacheson:

FYI, I have joined the UIAA Safety Commission working group on "Belay Resistors". I am on half term now with the family but have my first meeting the week after next so will be digging through the info made available to me prior to that. I will report back here with anything info I find that would be helpful.

In reply to cacheson:

I also, when belaying heavier climbers, make sure there is no excess slack out. Obviously, enough for them to move freely, but the bare minimum required for that. It takes a lot of concentration and careful rope management, but it does help in a fall scenario. 

Whether that is enough to make a difference in your very big weight difference will depend on how you generally belay, you may already do this. But worth assessing how much you currently give and whether there is room to give less while still allowing for free movement.

In reply to cacheson:

Direct belay off the anchor using a HMS ("Italian") hitch. Suddenly, the weight difference doesn't matter at all. Look up direct belays off the anchor...

In reply to Frank R.:

Not great for your rope, though.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I think this is great advice, and I generally try to stick to it. In our case, we tried this with some test falls using the ohm and it was insufficient- the belayer and climber were still going for a bit of a wing even with small-mid size falls and minimal slack. I think it will be incorporated into the final version of whatever we do, but we need some more friction.

In reply to Frank R.:

Thanks for elaborating. This seems like it could be a good option, or with a different belay device as mentioned by others above. I've done this kind of thing before on multipitch sport routes, and I've come across people who also like to do this when ice climbing in Austria. This certainly eliminates weight differential issues and prevents the belayer from slamming into the wall, but there is still the issue of providing a soft catch for the climber- nothing worse than braking an ankle in an otherwise safe fall. I'll experiment with a few different approaches.

In reply to galpinos:

I heard that there was going to be a push for standardised testing, so it's great to hear that action is underway. I'm curious to hear what you learn.

In reply to cacheson:

Maybe try belaying gloves when experimenting with the italian hitch first, unless familiar already. And yes, as somebody above noted, it can indeed kink your rope when a weighted rope goes through it, like with too many lower offs. Anyway, wishing you find a method that's both safe and soft enough for you and climbing partner.

In reply to cacheson:

I've belayed climbers up to about 100kg on single pitch like this, but I wouldn't try it with a 130kg climber on a hanging belay. The extra weight and being unable to move into the catch would increase the risk of losing control very dramatically.

In reply to cacheson:

I badly damaged my foot when belaying a heavier climber(20kg diff) indoors when I slammed into the wall and caught the top of my foot on a projecting hold. That put me out of action for 5 months! I’ve used an ohm since when climbing indoors or sport climbing outdoors when there’s a significant weight difference. The ohm works well when the instructions are understood ie stand immediately below when feeding fast and outside 1m radius below when anticipating fall or lowering

In reply to cacheson:

Don't most walls have purpose-made weight bags for their punters to use?

Anyhow, your potential solutions are easy:-

1) at the wall - weight bag, with or without the ohm as necessary.  You're just wanting to weigh them down enough to stop them hitting the first bolt.

2) single pitch sport at the crag - put all your kit in a bag and use that as a weight bag.  Add some rocks. Or tie the light person to some sort of ground anchor - a tree or spiral stake.

3) multipitch - belay off the anchors.

Another option that may or may not work - ohm on first bolt, screwgate with a turn through it on the second. Maybe use a revolver if the friction is too high? Or a figure of 8 rigged with the loop through the biner instead of the neck of the 8?

I wouldn't want to try to stop a 130kg person falling on a tube device, it's bad enough stopping someone that heavy on a toprope when you're 85kg like me.  Don't forget, the force pulling the rope through the device depends on the mass of the belayer as well as climber - currently the light belayer is being lifted by any force greater than the amount required to lift them off the ground - 75kg.  Make them heavier (weight bag, anchor) and suddenly the force increases to the full 130kg.  That means a very grippy device and a glove for most belayers at a minimum.  Jim Titt's work on belay devices is worth reading:- http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm , he'll no doubt tell you to use a tube device with 2 krabs.

In reply to LastBoyScout:

You know, when it comes to how much the rope will kink, there’s a big difference between belaying and abseiling. Try belaying with a loose HMS, and give rope by pulling on one side and pushing the rope on the other side of the HMS-carabiner. 

In reply to cacheson:

Don't forget that the Ohm works best when you are able to stand away from the base of the crag to get it lifted up into "friction mode" you may well struggle to get that position on a multi pitch belay. This in no way helps you unfortunately and the best advice will be to not fall 

In reply to cacheson:

just wanted to add to the discussion that I don't believe the grigri is designed/approved/recommended for a fixed point lead belay. The reason for a munter is to allow some slip so as not to hammer your climber or the last bolt with loads of force unnecesarily. As for whether you can hold the fall with a munter is yours to find out (with some sort of backup)

maybe a super munter if you can make it feed slack well enough? also solves twisting issues

In reply to tomdiddlybomb:

Munter is massively powerful, look up Jim's testing.

In reply to Toerag:

Looks like a direct with a munter and some gloves (after quite a lot of practice) might be the way to go. I have some concerns about the belay action with the locking strand in a different place to normal, and reckon it would actually be easier to have an anchor at my feet rather than above me, but I'll try it out. And as far as the twisting of the rope is concerned, it's not one of my favourite ropes so I don't mind if it is retired a little sooner... 

In reply to cacheson:

Apparently the need to lock off in the direction of the load is a bit of a myth and it's routinely used on the continent by locking off opposite the load.

In reply to Luke90:

IIRC I've read that too. As far as I'm aware its still recommended to hold the rope in the direction of the load while abbing to avoid twisting in the rope, may be wrong and I haven't used a munter for ages. 

In reply to galpinos:

I wondered about incorporating bungee like material into the system (obviously "backed up" by a slack part of rope etc to prevent excessive stretching or breaking)? I don't climb indoors and am ignorant of the physics involved and refrained from even mentioning this on the thread earlier as this will probably have been briefly considered before and instantly dismissed!

However just noticed Mountain Project have a thread, "Energy absorbing elements in climbing systems", mainly about LRS which has posts including elastic devices for reducing shock in boat mooring systems. No idea if that would be any use, where it might be used in the system (attachment to climber, short length in link of belay device to harness, or as part of quickdraw), if it would make rope handling too difficult or dangerous, or increase fall distance excessively.