UKC

We have a big day out planned for this weekend, in North Wales, a lovely long enchainment. (Think sunny thoughts!) The usual alternate leads, leading through method is all very well but in the case of the enchainment we have in mind, it gives all the interesting pitches to the same person. Which is a bit unfair! (Especially as the person with none of the interesting pitches also ends up getting the "walk left and belay below x" pitch as well :-p). However, speed is of the essence and we don't want to have lots of faffing in order to share out the good pitches.

So, leading in blocks was suggested. Is this a good idea or should one of us just suck it up with the less good pitches? Will block leading be as fast as leading through? Can it, with the right methods, even be faster? If so what are those methods/tips...?

Any suggestions/hints/whatever welcome, I'm not proud!

In reply to Flicka:
Could you run a couple of pitches together so you end up out of sequence? Thus splitting the interesting pitches between the two climbers.

In reply to Flicka: I think leading in blocks is quicker when the climbing is quite difficult for the climber, meaning they can get their leading head on then have longer to relax, but as this is an enchainment i assume the pitches wont be too challenging for either of you? On easier ground its definitely slower than swinging leads. Perhaps look at running some pitches together so you both get interesting pitches?

In reply to JoeL 90 and mkean:

Thanks guys, am looking at running pitches together, trying to work it out
The climbing mostly shouldn't be too challenging, getting it all done in one day (I've found another route to tack onto what was going to be the end so its gotten even longer!) will be! Speed is definitely the priority. And fluidity. What I really want is for everything to flow as much as possible as I think that will maximise enjoyment

In reply to Flicka:

use a cordlett or 16 foot sling to equalize belays and clip in rather than using rope and krabs to construct belays.

why
Means you can quickly swop over leader with one krab to the central loop created with cordlett or sling rather than multiple krabs and rope.

note it may not easily be to do on every stance, so personal judgment come in to play.

see this article from PYB

http://www.pyb.co.uk/information/top-tips/top-tips-slick-changeovers.php

In reply to Flicka: Have you tried using a bandolier, not to everyones liking but can make change overs quicker. I think overall it's not how you plan leading the pitches that saves the time, it is the efficiency on the stances that saves the time.

If the person who has just second up, grabs the rack, then the ropes don't need turning around. Whilst turning ropes around is not essential, a big tangle could cost more time overall. Plus, Seconding a pitch warms the climber up for leading on ahead. It is how you swap the rack that can save time, once you have routine that flows sorted between you, you can zoom up without a messing about.

Photocopy the relevant guidebook pages and take a copy each, saving swapping over and carrying the whole book.

Even at the bottom of the route, have a plan before you get there. Who will gear up whilst the other runs the rope out ready. If one person is idle for more than minute then you're probably loosing time.

Even putting in thoughtful gear, for runners, that can be quickly removed.

In reply to Flicka:


Climbing confidently is key to climbing quickly for me. I lose a lot more time dithering over a dodgy little step wishing I'd brought my Aliens than I do clipping/unclipping belays.

Running pitches together speeds things up a lot. With half ropes and sparse runners you can often run 2 or 3 together though there comes a point where the communication difficulties and worry over runner spacing will hit your confidence (rightly) and you'll slow down. Finding the balance is key.

Block leading is simple enough, just take some extra krabs, when the second arrives at the belay they clip/hitch into the same points as the leader with new krabs, put the leader on then the leader is ready to unclip from the belay and climb. On a ledge it takes seconds. For swapping/returning the rack, just do it as quick as you can.

Personally I'd just alternate but run as much of it together I could. It'll come down largely to luck who gets the duff pitches.

Sounds like a fun weekend.

jk

In reply to jkarran:


Don't you back coil the rope too which takes even more seconds!!

In reply to Ron Walker:


Back coil? No, I just leave them in a tangle, the belayer shakes them out faster than the leader can climb. Might not be elegant but it works just fine.

jk

In reply to Ian McNeill:

i normally lead everything and my partner seconds. on multipitches I usually do the following.

- belay where you think best, avoiding hanging belays or cramped belay ledges where possible, as it makes sorting out the ropes etc much slower.
- use cordellettes/ slings to make equalised belays and clove hitch your ropes into this as it is more flexible than clipping straight into the sling.
- Changeovers are where you can really save time. Get the 2nd to retrieve all the gear onto a sling instead of their harness, so at belays the drill goes: leader, takes the sling of gear and re-racks. 2nd, flakes ropes ready for leader to go and puts them on belay.
- use a autoblock where possible; there are plenty of opportunities on easy trad. the 2nd is safe straight away (but remember to swap over belay plates) and there is more scope to do other stuff like read the guidebook and sort out where the next pitch goes.

lastly, can you climb in big boots? will save a fair bit of time depending on how many climbs you are enchaining.

In reply to Flicka:

When I block lead if the ledge is big enough I tend to start to back coil the rope after I have told the second they are on belay and are stripping the previous belay, either hold their rope or quickly tie them off to give you two hands to do the back coil. When belaying the second up I then coil into a second pile. This means when I come to head off there should already be a fair chunk of the rope back coiled with only the length between your stance and the previous one routed the wrong way.

Hope that makes sense!
Marq

In reply to Flicka:
Where are you thinking of going? (Looking at routes also for this weekend- no point in too much traffic in the same place) Ta

In reply to Flicka:

Leading in blocks is OK if the second has a low boredom threshold ! its most useful when the second doesn't actually climb the pitch but jumars and cleans. For us average folk, swinging leads is by far the most satisfying way to go.

Whether you decide to swing leads or whether one person decides to do two or more successive pitches is all about stance management. Either way can be achieved rapidly by being organised at the stance - a bandolier speeds up gear change over and leaving room for the other person to clip straight onto the belay helps. Also look to see whether the 'walk left' pitches can be absorbed into the main pitches with judicious use of very long extenders and revolver krabs.

In reply to daveyw (HMC):

Idwal Slabs to do Tennis Shoe, Lazarus, The Arete and Lost Boot/Grey Slab (and possibly Manx Wall but that might be a bit ambitious). But am no longer sure it'll happen anyway because my partner and I are both sharing lifts with various people so we have no autonomy on start time which to me doesn't bode well! Anyway, we shall see. Weather looking good for Saturday at the moment, whatever happens!

In reply to Flicka:

I'd never contemplated block leading until Marq suggested it to me last year. It works really well if you do the cunning back-coiling trick he mentioned above, then once the leader gets to the stance they clip into the belay (it might be worth considering attaching a sling with a krab on the end to your belay loop and leaving it there all day to make this super-speedy) and strip the second of gear whilst the second flakes the rest of the rope. This can be further sped up if the belayer clips all the gear from their harness onto a sling in the belay ready for the leader to retrieve it whilst belaying. We did it climbing in a 3 with only 2 of us leading, and it worked very well.

In reply to Flicka: I did that enchainement a couple of years ago, started at 11 ended at 9, no plan as to who did which pitch, but I did mostly the easier ones. 900 feet of ascent we reckoned. Being efficient on belays is critical, but there is time to swap leader, particularly after the 'walk 30m in the grass ledge' pitches. And take torches for the descent!

Looking at the guide book, you'll have to walk between the various climbs so you'll have several opportunities to reset/break the order of leading without rope faff. There's a good photo of the entire enchainement and the surrounding area in North Wales Rock by Ground Up.

Linking in with your other post, why not give it a go Alpine style, i.e. big boots, rucksacks and as little gear as you are comfortable with? I suspect the climbing will be around PD to AD on the Alpine scale, though of course not the same commitment and objective danger etc.

In reply to Misha:

Surely if the objective is to climb fast then making things easy and familiar for yourself makes sense. From my hazy memory I can't say I'd fancy doing Tennis Shoe in my boots, they'd certainly slow me down a lot more than occasionally swapping back into trainers/sandles for the grass.

As for taking little gear, why bother, it's a roadside crag, it's not like you have to carry it far? You may as well climb comfortably and confidently rather than scratch around looking for placements to suit your gear rather than picking gear to suit the easiest/best placements.

Not really having a go, I just don't understand the logic. What you're proposing would make me climb much slower, maybe I'm in a minority?

jk

In reply to jkarran:

I've had a second who makes things much quicker on simple ground by re-racking as he goes. He takes a couple of extra snap gates, and rather than just clipping quickdraws with gear onto his harness arrives at the stance with a set of small wires, a set of large wires and a set of quickdraws. It didn't take that long, the first time he did it I didn't realise it was happening until I got all the gear given back to me.

In reply to jkarran:
Agree with what you're saying, it would be slower and harder that way. What I meant was that it would be more of an Alpine experience and she is going to the Alps for the first time in the summer, so would be good preparation (not being able to finish the route would also be good preparation!). I should have been a bit clearer.

In reply to jkarran:


Probably not; I've seen people wobbling on severes and wishing they had more gear and rock shoes, all in the name of "Alpine training". However, the crux of what Nikinko is saying is that it should be on ground that you are super-confident on.

In reply to JoeL 90:


I would dispute this, especially if you have one partner who is clearly faster in the lead. On easy ground the amount of gear that needs to be returned to the leader is small, and this can be speeded up further by the second racking it all on a bandolier. He gets to the stance, hands the leader the bandolier and back-coils the rope while the leader organises the rack back onto his harness. All very quick.

In reply to Flicka:
Cheers. We'll proabbly be further south than that. Hope the weather holds for all of us.

A bandolier helps, as well as taking time before you set off to decide what you really need.

Good luck

In reply to Flicka: We did that enchainment last september and had no trouble completing it in about 8 hours and we climbed as a 3. What I'm saying is you'll be fine for time at this time of year even starting late.

The problem with starting late is the queues that develop on the slabs; very few people climbed above the slabs when we did it. To get round the queuing issue we started at 8.30 or so, which is hardly mega early but is earlier than most lazy climbers get up.

I'd take rock shoes coz tennis shoe would be a mare in stiff boots and the arete is virtually a solo and would be 'interesting' in stiff boots.

btw we did central arete instead of grey slab; it's a good alternative should grey slab be busy

In reply to Flicka: For me block leading works better even on easier stuff.

1) use a cordelette

2) If its easy and you are confident you're only going to place a few of pieces in each pitch. The second will rapidly hand these over while you re-rack (takes 40 seconds). Meanwhile the second is making himself conmfortable, grabbing the rope bundle and vaguely turning it over (If youve laid it rght this will not be necessary

and off you go ...

3) If it's hard you will get your leading head, no one will get cold or excessively tired as activity is more regular

In reply to chris wyatt:

40 seconds is a long time - on easy ground it shouldn't take any time. And I hate cordelettes - too much extra tat to carry and faff to use especially if your anchors aren't conveniently placed, as is often the case. Each to their own I guess.

In reply to Misha:


I would regard alpine style as having more to do with moving together on the easy parts (the VDiff ground) than with footware. Also with 200m or so of IV and a couple of pitches of V/V+ it would be more AD+-D+ than PD-AD. My experance of those grades is that if they have moves of IV or V then they are moves not pitches.

In reply to Flicka: Block leading is a skill worth practicing and this enchainment is a good one to do it on due to most of the belay stances being reasonable.

The main advantage is that both climbers get a chance to rest. If you are swinging leads then the second has to climb a 40m pitch then straight away climb a 40m lead - 80m with no rest. This is fine on short days but when your doing 15+ pitches a day then the cramp can set in (i'd never had arm cramp until we swung leads on Cima Grande, not funny when your arm just locks at 90 degrees...)

Methods of doing it;

1) Cordlette: This method allows you to bring all the anchors together into one "Power Point" which you can then clip straight into. The second then comes up and clips straight into the power point when they arrive at the stance. No need to mess about with swapping ropes etc. The disadvantages of this method are that its very hard to perfectly equallise each anchor (espcially if its 3 or more anchors). It only works in one direction, if you load the power point sideways then the load will come directly onto one anchor. You can look into this really deeply and not do it or you can think that this is a method thats been used by many guides for years.

2) Use one rope set-up: When you get to the belay equalise yourself to the anchor using just one of your ropes (clove hitches etc). When the second comes, up tie them into the anchor with the other rope(their end). Quickly back coil ropes and sort out rack. The second puts you on belay and then you untie from anchor. The advantage of this method is that because the ropes are different colours the chances of you uncliping your second from the belay whilst your uncliping yourselves is vastly reduced. Also whilst your uncliping from the anchor, your second has you on a tight rope that won't become slack as you unclip your clove hitches etc. Finally,and best if you are with a novice, when you get to the next stance and are pulling ropes and putting them on belay etc, the second is on a tight rope (the one that isn't tieing them into the anchor) that will never become slack whilst the untie themselves from the belay. This reduces the 'worry factor' immensely. I have used this method for years and it works really well (i'm sure someone will point out that it has a few issues but well, there are always risks)

3) Swap ends: This is the old school method. When the second comes up to the stance, tie them into the anchor and then untie and swap ends. The ropes are then already back coiled etc. It goes with out saying that its one rope at a time and both ropes need to be tied into the anchor. This has the potential to go very badly wrong, and i wouldn't recommend it unless you are well skilled at it in advance. However many people swear by it, but they tend to be the same people who say that the best way to escape the system is to take your harness off.

Another way of speeding the day up is to move together and use ropemen/tiblocs to improve the safety.

Which ever method you use, there is no better feeling than moving fast and efficiently over steep ground in the mountains.

In reply to Jim Walton: Block-leading is definitely the way to go for moving fast, especially on harder routes. I tend to use method 1) above but with just a regular 120 cm (double shoulder-length sling). I find the situations when I cannot build a solid belay with two or three pieces of gear, a 120 cm sling and maybe an extra crab to be so rare that they don't justify bringing an cordalette.

Someone mentioned racking as you clean above. This is also a must-do for moving fast. Often gear is placed from position of (relative) rest, and as a second you may as well use these rests to sort gear. I put all the wires on the same crab when following a lead, usually on the first quickdraw the leader clipped to a wire, which of course I rack with the gate facing outward. I also rack the friends in the same way my leader wants them on their harness.

When leading people often put in one or two really solid pieces before a crux, and then waste time putting in more, not quite necessary, gear after having pulled the crux instead of just keep climbing until the next hard part. I often see people waste a few minutes on every lead doing this, which adds up to hours on long routes.

In reply to Misha:

VS climbers moving together on Grey Slab are in for a very nasty surprise !

In reply to Jim Walton:

I bow to your experience in the matter of leading in blocks, but I certainly manage the most efficient changeovers just swinging leads (IE stick to the method I use all the time rather than experimenting with a new system only to be used once a year at most). Admittedly 24 pitches is probably the longest route I've done this way. Basically get really good at what you are used to.

Another thing I've seen people advocating in the Alps was using direct belays with Italian hitch as being so much faster than conventional secondary belaying but I never found that - just getting really slick at setting up normal belays seemed to be just as efficient as the methods adopted by the European climbers.

In reply to GrahamD: Yes, i have also never got the direct italian hitch method for multiple pitches. Its great for belaying someone over a short section but it'll twist your rope something cronic on multiple pitches. Maybe they have differnt ropes...

In reply to Jim Walton: It's okay with Magic Plate style belay plates but then you have the whole issue of releasing when loaded (little slack please...)

In reply to Flicka: Most of the enchainments I have done in Wales really just link up a series of individual climbs and there is generally a bit of a hike between these climbs. Climbing out of turn isn't really a problem because you generally end up packing up most of your kit between climbs so arriving at the second climb means that whoever can start without it being any more or less of a faff.

In reply to GrahamD:

I think his idea of alpine style is to handicap yourself with big boots and a rucksack full of rocks while pitching it.

In reply to GrahamD:

I've only ever used that for a short pitch or regroup while moving together rather than for long blocks of pitched stuff.

In reply to Flicka: Given that there is a v long walk up to Grey Slab (and on to Manx Wall if you do it), this means you can sort out who leads what here to try to even things up a bit.

In reply to davidwright:

Pitching Grey Slab in big boots would also be an 'interesting' experience ! Actually, trying to get started on the Idwal slabs could be tricky as well !

In reply to davidwright and GrahamD:
I agree that moving together is the essence of easier Alpine climbing, though I wouldn't advocate trying moving together in big boots on a slab (particularly if it's not got much gear on it) if you've not done moving together before. Pitching a long enchainement in big boots would however give an Alpine novice an idea of what it's like and get them used to the extra weight and different footwear (could always take rock shoes as back up). Moving together could be learned later, an arete with lots of spikes and gear placements would be good for that, for example Cneifion Arete (Mod?) round those parts.

In reply to Misha:

Climbing in big boots is an essential alpine skill, as is moving together, but I dont honestly think the slabs are a good choice for either, unless you are very practiced and cruising at the grade.