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Are brushing ethics absolute? Is there no circumstance when one can wire brush a route? Is a soft brass brush more acceptable that a harder steel one? Is vigorous brushing with a stiff nylon dish scrubber acceptable,or even brushing with a toothbrush?Is it only valid to brush the route prior to a first ascent?
Is the acceptability of the brush relative to the hardness of the rock,the resistance of the lichen,or the seriousness of an otherwise green,slippery and unprotected route?
Is it acceptable to brush an established route that needs a good clean because it's had no ascents for years?
Is it hypocritical of people to criticise brushing when the critics themselves have trashed a lot of rock by not cleaning sand off their boots and tugged hard on nuts to seat them safely in cracks?
Should we feel free to slag off those we see wire brushing routes,and is it possible to avoid a judgemental attitude and enmity during the process?
Do we need to have an agreed environmental code for what is acceptable on crags and boulders,or should we be free to make our own judgements?
Why is bolting acceptable where brushing is not?
Should any old Basil be free to brush?
sincerely,
Paul Mitchell
Is the acceptability of the brush relative to the hardness of the rock,the resistance of the lichen,or the seriousness of an otherwise green,slippery and unprotected route?
Is it acceptable to brush an established route that needs a good clean because it's had no ascents for years?
Is it hypocritical of people to criticise brushing when the critics themselves have trashed a lot of rock by not cleaning sand off their boots and tugged hard on nuts to seat them safely in cracks?
Should we feel free to slag off those we see wire brushing routes,and is it possible to avoid a judgemental attitude and enmity during the process?
Do we need to have an agreed environmental code for what is acceptable on crags and boulders,or should we be free to make our own judgements?
Why is bolting acceptable where brushing is not?
Should any old Basil be free to brush?
sincerely,
Paul Mitchell
In reply to paul mitchell:
Bigger arms and more talent generaly reduces the requirement to brush I find. But if one has tiny arms and no talent then I guess brushing might be required?
Bigger arms and more talent generaly reduces the requirement to brush I find. But if one has tiny arms and no talent then I guess brushing might be required?
In reply to paul mitchell:
You asked so someone better reply properly
No, no, yes, depends, no, yes, depends on how climbable it is without, yes (but so what?), depends(both parts), I dont accept the statement in the question, obviously yes but I'd prefer not.
Offwidth@home
You asked so someone better reply properly
No, no, yes, depends, no, yes, depends on how climbable it is without, yes (but so what?), depends(both parts), I dont accept the statement in the question, obviously yes but I'd prefer not.
Offwidth@home
In reply to paul mitchell:
surprised that this had so little response.
I was one of the people that met you at the weekend.
To be honest i'm sorry that i didn't give the wire brush a go on a boulder to see if it caused any damage but i was so annoyed by the contempt shown to us by you friend that by that point i just wanted to leave it.
I wasn't aware that tugging hard on nuts to seat them was considered to damage the rock but i will certainly bare it in mind in future. As far as sand on the shoes goes I thought we all made efforts to clean our shoes before climbing but I'll be sure to be more diligent in the future.
Was Brian slagging you off or was he pointing out that he didn't agree with your actions? Not sure, maybe he did go on a bit.
Either way there was absolutely no call for the tirade of abuse we received for trying to defend the crag. I personally felt that your friend was very threatening. That's the last thing you need when you are belaying someone on a route which, for him, is quite hard and he needs all your attention.
Anyway, no offence to you - maybe your actions didn't damage the rock. The heavy wire brush you also had with you certainly made me suspicious but that's by the by. I don't want to see the crag damaged but i also don't want to feel like i have any enemies if i turn up at a crag.
I hope your guide book turned up.
surprised that this had so little response.
I was one of the people that met you at the weekend.
To be honest i'm sorry that i didn't give the wire brush a go on a boulder to see if it caused any damage but i was so annoyed by the contempt shown to us by you friend that by that point i just wanted to leave it.
I wasn't aware that tugging hard on nuts to seat them was considered to damage the rock but i will certainly bare it in mind in future. As far as sand on the shoes goes I thought we all made efforts to clean our shoes before climbing but I'll be sure to be more diligent in the future.
Was Brian slagging you off or was he pointing out that he didn't agree with your actions? Not sure, maybe he did go on a bit.
Either way there was absolutely no call for the tirade of abuse we received for trying to defend the crag. I personally felt that your friend was very threatening. That's the last thing you need when you are belaying someone on a route which, for him, is quite hard and he needs all your attention.
Anyway, no offence to you - maybe your actions didn't damage the rock. The heavy wire brush you also had with you certainly made me suspicious but that's by the by. I don't want to see the crag damaged but i also don't want to feel like i have any enemies if i turn up at a crag.
I hope your guide book turned up.
In reply to paul mitchell: The outer layer of exposed rock tends to be denser then the underneath (I don't know why but I'm asured this is the case by my geologist cousin) and, if brushed - or otherwise eroded away - can result in a massive acceleration in errossion that may completely destroy a route. Tooth brushing is pretty acceptable (if it doesn't destroy your teeth it's not going to destroy the rock) and stiffer brushes are fine within reason. Keep in mind that a small amount of lingering lichen or chalk dust isn't going to imapir your performance a lot and it is better to fail on a route this year than for it to ahve erroded away next year.
NB Yes the rules change with softer rocks (sandstone should be treated with great care) and bolting causes less damage in a way (in that bolts don't get larger).
Final note. Yorkshire Gritstone is generally considered sacrosacnt by the climbers of the area - don't use anything more sever than a tooth brush if you wish to avoid confrontations.
NB Yes the rules change with softer rocks (sandstone should be treated with great care) and bolting causes less damage in a way (in that bolts don't get larger).
Final note. Yorkshire Gritstone is generally considered sacrosacnt by the climbers of the area - don't use anything more sever than a tooth brush if you wish to avoid confrontations.
In reply to paul mitchell: I am surprised that you were not lynched when caught wire brushing.
Read the sction on ethics and also bouldering guidelines.
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/train/climbing_outside.pdf
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/train/climbing_outside.pdf
In reply to paul mitchell: That's not a post, it's the running order for a conference!
In reply to paul mitchell: Your profile says: "If you can't do the move,then become the person who CAN do the move." A commendable statement: how does it fit with brushing?
In reply to paul mitchell:
Wire brushing has no place in climbing full stop. Does that help at all?
I never quite understand this stuff about tugging on nuts and damaging the rock and so forth. In my experience trad gear (friends in stupid places excepted) generally polishes the inside of cracks and has no detrimental effect on the route. It strikes me as mere opportunism on the part of vandals of one kind and another to complain about that. I think the hypocrisy's on your side (if you were wire brushing and comparing that to gear placing).
jcm
Wire brushing has no place in climbing full stop. Does that help at all?
I never quite understand this stuff about tugging on nuts and damaging the rock and so forth. In my experience trad gear (friends in stupid places excepted) generally polishes the inside of cracks and has no detrimental effect on the route. It strikes me as mere opportunism on the part of vandals of one kind and another to complain about that. I think the hypocrisy's on your side (if you were wire brushing and comparing that to gear placing).
jcm
In reply to paul mitchell:
I have no idea to what you are reffereing or what passed but I hope you had a good weekend and got some good ticks.
J
I have no idea to what you are reffereing or what passed but I hope you had a good weekend and got some good ticks.
J
In reply to paul mitchell:
Hi there,
I believe wire brushing is a bridge too far - for me it is an implement to rip anything and everything off the surface of the rock and sometimes the rock itself; prefereably one should use a plastic brush.
I have often eyed up the route "Crime" at the Plantation which is very dirty and green - I had thought of using a large plastic kitchen brush to clean it... maybe I ought to see if that does the trick before finalising my views...
Whats all this jamming runners in the rock all about?
Cheers,
Hi there,
I believe wire brushing is a bridge too far - for me it is an implement to rip anything and everything off the surface of the rock and sometimes the rock itself; prefereably one should use a plastic brush.
I have often eyed up the route "Crime" at the Plantation which is very dirty and green - I had thought of using a large plastic kitchen brush to clean it... maybe I ought to see if that does the trick before finalising my views...
Whats all this jamming runners in the rock all about?
Cheers,
In reply to simon cox: Look at the damage done by gear to Western Front at Almscliff.Golden Days at Black Rocks has been trashed by gear placements.Wee Dorris at Stoney has got easier for finger locks because of numerous lobs onto nuts,which widen them.Dawes is pissed off with people falling on the gear on Gaia,as that trashes the rock.So it's ok to damage the rock with pro as long as the damage is invisible inside cracks?
It seems some people do take an absolute view.I don't.It depends how dirty a route is and how difficult the stuff is to remove.If the rock is soft I will often just leave the route or at worst use a dish brush with plastic bristles.My route Simpering Savage is a case in point.It was cleaned recently by a guy who'd wanted to do it for years.I have no objection to that,as that route takes a lot of drainage and he was only replicating first ascent conditions.
I listen to what the BMC has to say but don't regard their advice as absolute gospel.I don't go around fiendishly abrading the rock.
The point I was making is that merely by climbing the rock we affect its surface.Just look at all the polished holds at Stanage and on limestone.Why should brushing be seen as any different to wearing sticky boots,which,by applying more friction to the holds,surely wears them out quicker?
It seems some people do take an absolute view.I don't.It depends how dirty a route is and how difficult the stuff is to remove.If the rock is soft I will often just leave the route or at worst use a dish brush with plastic bristles.My route Simpering Savage is a case in point.It was cleaned recently by a guy who'd wanted to do it for years.I have no objection to that,as that route takes a lot of drainage and he was only replicating first ascent conditions.
I listen to what the BMC has to say but don't regard their advice as absolute gospel.I don't go around fiendishly abrading the rock.
The point I was making is that merely by climbing the rock we affect its surface.Just look at all the polished holds at Stanage and on limestone.Why should brushing be seen as any different to wearing sticky boots,which,by applying more friction to the holds,surely wears them out quicker?
In reply to paul mitchell:
Obviously it depends on the nature of the rock - grit/sandstone presumably, but wire-brushing will always have a greater risk of breaking quickly through the weathered patina. Minimal brushing, if it needs to be done at all, seems a reasonable code of conduct.
Potentially brushing is more damaging than bolting that only really affects a small hole, though this doesn't neccessarily mean bolting is a good thing. Over-brushing can radically accelerate erosion and is difficult to reverse.
Obviously it depends on the nature of the rock - grit/sandstone presumably, but wire-brushing will always have a greater risk of breaking quickly through the weathered patina. Minimal brushing, if it needs to be done at all, seems a reasonable code of conduct.
Potentially brushing is more damaging than bolting that only really affects a small hole, though this doesn't neccessarily mean bolting is a good thing. Over-brushing can radically accelerate erosion and is difficult to reverse.
In reply to paul mitchell:
Paul, it seems this has arisen over a specific incident - perhaps if you told us exactly where one could offer an informed opinion.
Certainly I don't believe the large hardware/ paint stripper style brush you and johnny use has any place on gritstone. A small brass suede brush may not damage quarried rock but personally I never use either.
My tool of choice is a wooden-bristled scrubbing brush - harder than lichen, softer than rock, see? If the lichen is especially stubborn just wait for a miserable misty day - the lichen swells and is easily removed with even a nylon brush.
If you're not prepared to put this kind of time in stick to the established problems.
Paul, it seems this has arisen over a specific incident - perhaps if you told us exactly where one could offer an informed opinion.
Certainly I don't believe the large hardware/ paint stripper style brush you and johnny use has any place on gritstone. A small brass suede brush may not damage quarried rock but personally I never use either.
My tool of choice is a wooden-bristled scrubbing brush - harder than lichen, softer than rock, see? If the lichen is especially stubborn just wait for a miserable misty day - the lichen swells and is easily removed with even a nylon brush.
If you're not prepared to put this kind of time in stick to the established problems.
In reply to paul mitchell:
Paul,
You and I have been around for a long time. Wire brushing, way back when, was just part of what we did. We've moved on, maybe. Toothbrushes, plastic brushes, etc.
To me, the difference is minimal. IE, I don't see any problem with wire brushing.
Where I do have a problem is with modern bouldering and boulderers, and here is why:
Wire brushing, it seems, is frowned upon. But take a look at any "bouldering" area and the whole place is trashed. Not by brushes but by worn paths, ruined landings, litter, tape, fag ends (and I have been known to enjoy a smoke), discarded carpet, etc. There is bad language and an often intinidating atmosphere from the cliques which go to the same places, week in, week out (and weak in, weak out, too). The rock is becoming polished and ruined (and that is forever). Resin. Stupid amounts of chalk (often on what we used to use as descents). Ad infinitum.
Those responsible, in my mind, are those entrepreneurs who make money from the "bouldering" guidebooks. They bear an awful responsibility and I hope they feel the guilt they have earned when they look, objectively, at areas of once beautiful countryside I suspect that they, too, have a deep and intense love for.
I also wonder at the need for a guide to bouldering; doesn't it just remove the key part of bouldering? IE seeing some holds and imagining YOUR problem, for yourself? I remember when what is now known as the Green Traverse was first discovered and climbed. Finding the holds, linking them up, "seeing" the problem was something that gave great joy. And yes, on the day it was first done a wire brush was used. Irresponsible? No, because there were only three of us and it wasn't for commercial reasons we did it. We did it cause we imagined it, from what we saw on a tiny bit of rock one day when for some reason we hadn't gone further afield. We went away and forgot about it, except as something we'd made up and loved.
Boulders and the countryside which surrounds them; the new sacrificial mountains?
Paul,
You and I have been around for a long time. Wire brushing, way back when, was just part of what we did. We've moved on, maybe. Toothbrushes, plastic brushes, etc.
To me, the difference is minimal. IE, I don't see any problem with wire brushing.
Where I do have a problem is with modern bouldering and boulderers, and here is why:
Wire brushing, it seems, is frowned upon. But take a look at any "bouldering" area and the whole place is trashed. Not by brushes but by worn paths, ruined landings, litter, tape, fag ends (and I have been known to enjoy a smoke), discarded carpet, etc. There is bad language and an often intinidating atmosphere from the cliques which go to the same places, week in, week out (and weak in, weak out, too). The rock is becoming polished and ruined (and that is forever). Resin. Stupid amounts of chalk (often on what we used to use as descents). Ad infinitum.
Those responsible, in my mind, are those entrepreneurs who make money from the "bouldering" guidebooks. They bear an awful responsibility and I hope they feel the guilt they have earned when they look, objectively, at areas of once beautiful countryside I suspect that they, too, have a deep and intense love for.
I also wonder at the need for a guide to bouldering; doesn't it just remove the key part of bouldering? IE seeing some holds and imagining YOUR problem, for yourself? I remember when what is now known as the Green Traverse was first discovered and climbed. Finding the holds, linking them up, "seeing" the problem was something that gave great joy. And yes, on the day it was first done a wire brush was used. Irresponsible? No, because there were only three of us and it wasn't for commercial reasons we did it. We did it cause we imagined it, from what we saw on a tiny bit of rock one day when for some reason we hadn't gone further afield. We went away and forgot about it, except as something we'd made up and loved.
Boulders and the countryside which surrounds them; the new sacrificial mountains?
In reply to Just askin':
Talk about going off topic. I think all boulderers in the know are fully aware all of that stuff (apart from cliques) and do something about it. Cliqueyness is always down in part to the person in question, I've had loads of great days bouldering with people I'd only just met that day. You know, strangers are friends you've never met yet? (except ones on the internet who are all saddos obviously). There's an enormous willingness amongst them to travel to boulder these, days, it would've been unheard of to go to the Lakes or Scotland specifically to boulder 15 years ago. This spreads the load on the crags, and creates a market for good inspiring well written guidebooks, which most of the recent ones are. Can you accuse the peak one of popularising it, given the number of easier problems (sub 7a) it contains.
When I go back to burbage I feel ashamed and pick up what I see, but the litter situation is undeniably better in winter, it's down to picnicers just as much. When I go to Brimham and see all the Cam scratch marks I really don't like it, but what are you going to do, confiscate VS leader's cams? Personally I mostly climb elsewhere but I do still regularly visit the grit, and so I'd be all for Czech knotted sling ethics (not the bolts) on (some) gritstone crags, then we'd all have a much better idea about how much harder the older first ascents really were. Headpoint ethics work really well elsewhere, even southern sandstone but I don't know anywhere on grit this particularly suits (apart from blatantly unonsightable higher grades) and would just be used as an excuse for even more lazy top roping.
Paul I'd trust your judgement too, but the point about wire brushes is idiot's are f*cking the grit with them and we need to set an example. Even Dawes looks like an idiot when he leaves stupid great pink patches on the Eliminates wall, OK they've faded now and the route enjoyed a brief spell of popularity so maybe he was justified but at the time, asthetically, that was so f*cking daft. I don't buy what that idiot's saying about get stronger, you've got to be really strong (and stupid if it's bold) to pull on dirty holds. But are you guys really not strong enough to use plastic brushes and a lot more elbow grease?
Talk about going off topic. I think all boulderers in the know are fully aware all of that stuff (apart from cliques) and do something about it. Cliqueyness is always down in part to the person in question, I've had loads of great days bouldering with people I'd only just met that day. You know, strangers are friends you've never met yet? (except ones on the internet who are all saddos obviously). There's an enormous willingness amongst them to travel to boulder these, days, it would've been unheard of to go to the Lakes or Scotland specifically to boulder 15 years ago. This spreads the load on the crags, and creates a market for good inspiring well written guidebooks, which most of the recent ones are. Can you accuse the peak one of popularising it, given the number of easier problems (sub 7a) it contains.
When I go back to burbage I feel ashamed and pick up what I see, but the litter situation is undeniably better in winter, it's down to picnicers just as much. When I go to Brimham and see all the Cam scratch marks I really don't like it, but what are you going to do, confiscate VS leader's cams? Personally I mostly climb elsewhere but I do still regularly visit the grit, and so I'd be all for Czech knotted sling ethics (not the bolts) on (some) gritstone crags, then we'd all have a much better idea about how much harder the older first ascents really were. Headpoint ethics work really well elsewhere, even southern sandstone but I don't know anywhere on grit this particularly suits (apart from blatantly unonsightable higher grades) and would just be used as an excuse for even more lazy top roping.
Paul I'd trust your judgement too, but the point about wire brushes is idiot's are f*cking the grit with them and we need to set an example. Even Dawes looks like an idiot when he leaves stupid great pink patches on the Eliminates wall, OK they've faded now and the route enjoyed a brief spell of popularity so maybe he was justified but at the time, asthetically, that was so f*cking daft. I don't buy what that idiot's saying about get stronger, you've got to be really strong (and stupid if it's bold) to pull on dirty holds. But are you guys really not strong enough to use plastic brushes and a lot more elbow grease?
In reply to paul mitchell:
>Dawes is pissed off with people falling on the gear on Gaia,as that trashes the rock.
The placement, surely? Anyway, I agree with him. Give it one go onsight, OK, but after that work it on a rope and headpoint it. Same with Profit of Doom - anything with a single crucial runner.
>So it's ok to damage the rock with pro as long as the damage is invisible inside cracks?
Yep, pretty much.
Brushing is different from sticky boots because it isn't necessary and is an area where we can still actually make a difference. People look up to the likes of you and Johnny and they think if it's OK for you it must be OK for them. You have the experience and love of the rock to do it responsibly - probably, we can all make mistakes. They don't. So it's better if it just isn't done.
You saw the appalling mess someone made wirebushing Toy Boy, for example? Didn't Johnny himself get peeved in the past about too many people wirebrushing Downhill Racer direct start (totally unnecessary, obviously, except for people who need the hold bigger)? How does that square with the mess on Drum 'n' Bass?
Even the best can't get it right - better to pack it in altogether.
jcm
>Dawes is pissed off with people falling on the gear on Gaia,as that trashes the rock.
The placement, surely? Anyway, I agree with him. Give it one go onsight, OK, but after that work it on a rope and headpoint it. Same with Profit of Doom - anything with a single crucial runner.
>So it's ok to damage the rock with pro as long as the damage is invisible inside cracks?
Yep, pretty much.
Brushing is different from sticky boots because it isn't necessary and is an area where we can still actually make a difference. People look up to the likes of you and Johnny and they think if it's OK for you it must be OK for them. You have the experience and love of the rock to do it responsibly - probably, we can all make mistakes. They don't. So it's better if it just isn't done.
You saw the appalling mess someone made wirebushing Toy Boy, for example? Didn't Johnny himself get peeved in the past about too many people wirebrushing Downhill Racer direct start (totally unnecessary, obviously, except for people who need the hold bigger)? How does that square with the mess on Drum 'n' Bass?
Even the best can't get it right - better to pack it in altogether.
jcm
In reply to Anonymous:
This is a point that's been hinted at for a long time - it appears 'OK' for certain older and more experienced climbers to do things, therefore beginners see no reason why they shouldn't as well.
>
> ... People look up to the likes of ...
> ... People look up to the likes of ...
This is a point that's been hinted at for a long time - it appears 'OK' for certain older and more experienced climbers to do things, therefore beginners see no reason why they shouldn't as well.
In reply to Kipper: All points noted.Sometimes plastic bristles are not enough.One could scrub all day and not remove certain types of lichen,i e Drummond Base,Curbar.The brush marks on that are now disappearing.Many of the harder grit routes would not exist without being wire brushed first.
Speak the Truth took me 3 hours with a wire brush.The rock on that is hard and a superb arete was made available.Brushing it did no harm.Asking the first ascensionist to back off is not realistic.The point is to only use the wire brush when nothing else works,and to use only the minimum pressure needed.A worn down dishes brush with short bristles can also be powerfully abrasive.
To say one should never use a wire brush is just too dogmatic.I do have a brass bristle wire brush which is only slightly firmer that a hard toothbrush.In general I use various soft or hard toothbrushes to clean holds,and I am always careful.
All brushing affects the rock in some way,as does all climbing. I still maintain that it is up to the individual to make their own judgement,while bearing in mind the opinions of others,causing the least possible damage.
I would welcome the East European sandstone ethic for grit,but I don't see how this could be enforced.It would probably mean even more overcrowding on the lower grade routes and more helicopter call outs.
Speak the Truth took me 3 hours with a wire brush.The rock on that is hard and a superb arete was made available.Brushing it did no harm.Asking the first ascensionist to back off is not realistic.The point is to only use the wire brush when nothing else works,and to use only the minimum pressure needed.A worn down dishes brush with short bristles can also be powerfully abrasive.
To say one should never use a wire brush is just too dogmatic.I do have a brass bristle wire brush which is only slightly firmer that a hard toothbrush.In general I use various soft or hard toothbrushes to clean holds,and I am always careful.
All brushing affects the rock in some way,as does all climbing. I still maintain that it is up to the individual to make their own judgement,while bearing in mind the opinions of others,causing the least possible damage.
I would welcome the East European sandstone ethic for grit,but I don't see how this could be enforced.It would probably mean even more overcrowding on the lower grade routes and more helicopter call outs.
In reply to Paz:
Why on earth is it off topic? Surely we're talking desecration of areas we love - by brushing or whatever? Well, I am anyway!
Whilst I'm glad you're ashamed by the state of climbing areas, as am I, I'm afraid I can't see picnickers as being as much to blame as climbers; sure, they are partly to blame but the idea of sloping our communal shoulders in this way is pretty poor and certainly can't help our cause. There are fewer climbers in winter, too!
And yes, I can accuse Peak bouldering guides of popularising the activity, and precisely BECAUSE they contain easier problems. Bouldering used to be about finding these things (problems) for yourself - now that's been done for "climbers" and obviously as more people climb easy routes, then the inclusion of easier problems must increase traffic. That's a no-brainer.
And then in your last para you almost entirely contradict yourself - I agree with you that wire brushing in sensible hands is not a problem and the problem is the idiots; well where did the idiots come from? Yep, that's right; they come from bouldering guidebooks. The guidebooks take all the exploration and the difficulty and the romance and the initiative out of going bouldering, opening lots of areas of beautiful countryside up to....idiots!
The bouldering guides, tragically, are destroying the areas they write about at a ferocious rate. Those who make money from them should be ashamed.
Why on earth is it off topic? Surely we're talking desecration of areas we love - by brushing or whatever? Well, I am anyway!
Whilst I'm glad you're ashamed by the state of climbing areas, as am I, I'm afraid I can't see picnickers as being as much to blame as climbers; sure, they are partly to blame but the idea of sloping our communal shoulders in this way is pretty poor and certainly can't help our cause. There are fewer climbers in winter, too!
And yes, I can accuse Peak bouldering guides of popularising the activity, and precisely BECAUSE they contain easier problems. Bouldering used to be about finding these things (problems) for yourself - now that's been done for "climbers" and obviously as more people climb easy routes, then the inclusion of easier problems must increase traffic. That's a no-brainer.
And then in your last para you almost entirely contradict yourself - I agree with you that wire brushing in sensible hands is not a problem and the problem is the idiots; well where did the idiots come from? Yep, that's right; they come from bouldering guidebooks. The guidebooks take all the exploration and the difficulty and the romance and the initiative out of going bouldering, opening lots of areas of beautiful countryside up to....idiots!
The bouldering guides, tragically, are destroying the areas they write about at a ferocious rate. Those who make money from them should be ashamed.
In reply to paul mitchell:
The environment is always more important than YOUR climb.
Nuff said really.
Fex.
The environment is always more important than YOUR climb.
Nuff said really.
Fex.
In reply to Just askin': Thank you so much for your simple, one stop, black and white explanation of the state of affairs on our beloved grit crags.
There was me thinking that real life was actually a complicated interplay between numerous ever varying factors, in this case, all types of media; film, magazines, internet, books, etc and of course all those people who do interact with and contribute to these types of media, either by supporting them with their patronage, or by contributing to them.
I didn’t realize it was solely the fault of the bouldering guidebook writers:
Al Williams, Jason Myers, Steve Rhodes, Al Cameron Duff, Rupert Davies, Jon Barton, John Earl, John Watson, Niall Grimes, Al James, oh, and me of course, driving round in our Rolls Royces with the endless bags of cash that we’ve made from selling millions of books that wreck the natural environment. (God knows why Jon Pearson or Greg Chapman run those free websites, when they could be coining in the millions like the rest of us?)
And then of course there are all the other people who helped research and check the guides. Just flicking through the acknowledgements in the various Peak bouldering guides that sit on my shelf, you see the usual suspects – I won’t list them all, as we’d be here all day. It is amazing though, the number of folk whom I’d previously considered to be just knowledgeable keen climbers, that are now (according to your enlightened view point) implicated in the loss of innocent times that you so dearly mourn.
What a desperate bunch of criminals we all are – god knows how we sleep at night.
By the way, what is your real name? Just wanted to check if you appeared in any of those acknowledgement lists. Or if you’d ever publicized any new boulder problems or climbs, or perhaps if I’d ever met you and you’d recommended a climb or boulder problem to me. Just to be sure, that’s all. I did notice you recommending some grit routes on a thread a while back, but presumably that doesn’t count, because they are routes, or is it that guidebooks = bad, internet = good, yeah? No?
There was me thinking that real life was actually a complicated interplay between numerous ever varying factors, in this case, all types of media; film, magazines, internet, books, etc and of course all those people who do interact with and contribute to these types of media, either by supporting them with their patronage, or by contributing to them.
I didn’t realize it was solely the fault of the bouldering guidebook writers:
Al Williams, Jason Myers, Steve Rhodes, Al Cameron Duff, Rupert Davies, Jon Barton, John Earl, John Watson, Niall Grimes, Al James, oh, and me of course, driving round in our Rolls Royces with the endless bags of cash that we’ve made from selling millions of books that wreck the natural environment. (God knows why Jon Pearson or Greg Chapman run those free websites, when they could be coining in the millions like the rest of us?)
And then of course there are all the other people who helped research and check the guides. Just flicking through the acknowledgements in the various Peak bouldering guides that sit on my shelf, you see the usual suspects – I won’t list them all, as we’d be here all day. It is amazing though, the number of folk whom I’d previously considered to be just knowledgeable keen climbers, that are now (according to your enlightened view point) implicated in the loss of innocent times that you so dearly mourn.
What a desperate bunch of criminals we all are – god knows how we sleep at night.
By the way, what is your real name? Just wanted to check if you appeared in any of those acknowledgement lists. Or if you’d ever publicized any new boulder problems or climbs, or perhaps if I’d ever met you and you’d recommended a climb or boulder problem to me. Just to be sure, that’s all. I did notice you recommending some grit routes on a thread a while back, but presumably that doesn’t count, because they are routes, or is it that guidebooks = bad, internet = good, yeah? No?
In reply to paul mitchell:
>Why should brushing be seen as any different to wearing sticky boots,which,by applying more friction to the holds,surely wears them out quicker?
Friction does not in itself cause damage. Movement of boots on rock is what causes polishing. Ever tried polishing something by pressing hard but not moving your hand? Doesn't work, does it?
Your argument seems to be that anything is OK because all climbing causes damage. Do you extend that to chipping? If not, why not? The answer is that it is about how to cause a minimum of damage without stopping climbing completely.
>Why should brushing be seen as any different to wearing sticky boots,which,by applying more friction to the holds,surely wears them out quicker?
Friction does not in itself cause damage. Movement of boots on rock is what causes polishing. Ever tried polishing something by pressing hard but not moving your hand? Doesn't work, does it?
Your argument seems to be that anything is OK because all climbing causes damage. Do you extend that to chipping? If not, why not? The answer is that it is about how to cause a minimum of damage without stopping climbing completely.
In reply to Just askin':
Perhaps it would be more sensible to take your criticism of guidebooks to another thread, and let people discuss why it's OK for some use wirebrushes on grit on this one? It would help avoid distracting from the main point.
>
> Why on earth is it off topic? Surely we're talking desecration of areas we love - by brushing or whatever? Well, I am anyway!
> Why on earth is it off topic? Surely we're talking desecration of areas we love - by brushing or whatever? Well, I am anyway!
Perhaps it would be more sensible to take your criticism of guidebooks to another thread, and let people discuss why it's OK for some use wirebrushes on grit on this one? It would help avoid distracting from the main point.
In reply to Just askin':
You seem to think that bouldering should only be for those in the know and that those that need a bit of help are idiots. Luckily for most of us those 'money grabbing guidebook authors' keep doing their stuff. It seems to me you need to wake up to the fact that bouldering is now mainstream. Hence if one pair of hands is sensible with a wirebrush, so must all the others: as soon as it was liable to drift into the mainstream, wirebrushing could no longer be regarded as acceptable by anyone.
Paul quite rightly raises other practices which damage the rock: they should no longer be acceptable either (climbing in dirty boots, falling repeatedly onto crucial placements) and there are others too like climbing soft Roaches area boulder problems rock in damp conditions or group abseiling down classic hard slab climbs. If we love the rock we should try and minimise damage without overly restricting access.
You seem to think that bouldering should only be for those in the know and that those that need a bit of help are idiots. Luckily for most of us those 'money grabbing guidebook authors' keep doing their stuff. It seems to me you need to wake up to the fact that bouldering is now mainstream. Hence if one pair of hands is sensible with a wirebrush, so must all the others: as soon as it was liable to drift into the mainstream, wirebrushing could no longer be regarded as acceptable by anyone.
Paul quite rightly raises other practices which damage the rock: they should no longer be acceptable either (climbing in dirty boots, falling repeatedly onto crucial placements) and there are others too like climbing soft Roaches area boulder problems rock in damp conditions or group abseiling down classic hard slab climbs. If we love the rock we should try and minimise damage without overly restricting access.
In reply to Just askin':
It's off topic because it seems to be an excuse for a rant about modern bouldering. Bouldering can still be all about the things you describe but it's also about more than that now. People from all over the world want to climb in the peak, and a great many of them are boulderers. I'm quite happy for you to think that I'm contradicting myself by taking a paragraph out of context (where I wasn't even talking directly to you), but mate you're nearly coming over like you have real issues with other people. That there are other people you have to share the outdoors is an unavoidable fact and it's not helpful to cite this as the cause of `desecration'. A lot of these people like to talk to each other about their problems. Where do these idiot's come from? Well when a man and a women love each other very much the man puts his...
It takes all sorts and there's one born every minute. Did you know it all yourself when you started out?
Most experienced boulderers are fully aware of the consequences of our actions and have discussed doing something about it (on here), and their knowledge is being passed on to the younger generation.
Maybe I shouldn't have called them idiots, but the cause is just a lack of education. If you had a read of one of these guidebooks you dislike so much they (3 of them that I can think of) seem to explain clearly what's acceptable and what's not and what your responsibilities are when in the countryside
I'm coming from a completely uninformed position but it sounds a bit like only a wire brush can remove lichen that's so heavily engrained in the rock that anyone without new routing experience might just regard as a natural part of the rock.
Paul - I can see from this description
http://www.ukclimbing.com/databases/crags/craginfo.html?id=957
that the crag where Speak The Truth is, is unpopular and surrounded by trees (you make the rock sound good for a quarry though). I think it's more the popular exposed, and developed (and mostly natural ) crags that people dislike seeing wire brushes used at, e.g. on existing routes that are just a bit green.
It's off topic because it seems to be an excuse for a rant about modern bouldering. Bouldering can still be all about the things you describe but it's also about more than that now. People from all over the world want to climb in the peak, and a great many of them are boulderers. I'm quite happy for you to think that I'm contradicting myself by taking a paragraph out of context (where I wasn't even talking directly to you), but mate you're nearly coming over like you have real issues with other people. That there are other people you have to share the outdoors is an unavoidable fact and it's not helpful to cite this as the cause of `desecration'. A lot of these people like to talk to each other about their problems. Where do these idiot's come from? Well when a man and a women love each other very much the man puts his...
It takes all sorts and there's one born every minute. Did you know it all yourself when you started out?
Most experienced boulderers are fully aware of the consequences of our actions and have discussed doing something about it (on here), and their knowledge is being passed on to the younger generation.
Maybe I shouldn't have called them idiots, but the cause is just a lack of education. If you had a read of one of these guidebooks you dislike so much they (3 of them that I can think of) seem to explain clearly what's acceptable and what's not and what your responsibilities are when in the countryside
I'm coming from a completely uninformed position but it sounds a bit like only a wire brush can remove lichen that's so heavily engrained in the rock that anyone without new routing experience might just regard as a natural part of the rock.
Paul - I can see from this description
http://www.ukclimbing.com/databases/crags/craginfo.html?id=957
that the crag where Speak The Truth is, is unpopular and surrounded by trees (you make the rock sound good for a quarry though). I think it's more the popular exposed, and developed (and mostly natural ) crags that people dislike seeing wire brushes used at, e.g. on existing routes that are just a bit green.
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