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Does it polish the holds and damage the rock more than climbing on it when dry?
I know climbing soft sandstone is a no no when it's wet but I don't with regard to grit.
I know climbing soft sandstone is a no no when it's wet but I don't with regard to grit.
In reply to teflonpete:
Wet shouldn't make any difference to grit. It's withstood thousands of years weathering (ice, snow, frost and rain) so I doubt your boots will do much harm - unless you still favour nails...
Wet shouldn't make any difference to grit. It's withstood thousands of years weathering (ice, snow, frost and rain) so I doubt your boots will do much harm - unless you still favour nails...
In reply to teflonpete:
It would be wise to be wary of thin flakes (either as holds or gear placements), but otherwise, there's no problem, apart from the general unpleasantness!
It would be wise to be wary of thin flakes (either as holds or gear placements), but otherwise, there's no problem, apart from the general unpleasantness!
In reply to teflonpete:
Sandstone is more fragile when its wet. The problem there is that the surface grains pull off easier so erosion is accelerated. I know from experience its more likely to snap when its wet!
The difference between gritstone and sandstone is.... well I've never managed to get a straight answer on that one.
Having looked at a lot of wet grit over the years its clear that some examples of it are more prone to erosion when wet than others. I don't know why this is though.
Sandstone is more fragile when its wet. The problem there is that the surface grains pull off easier so erosion is accelerated. I know from experience its more likely to snap when its wet!
The difference between gritstone and sandstone is.... well I've never managed to get a straight answer on that one.
Having looked at a lot of wet grit over the years its clear that some examples of it are more prone to erosion when wet than others. I don't know why this is though.
In reply to petellis:
Its the cement sticking the grains together - soft, soluble(ish) iron oxides and carbonates in sandstone, hard, largely insoluble silica in grit.
Chris
PS Possibly!
>
>
> The difference between gritstone and sandstone is.... well I've never managed to get a straight answer on that one.
>
>
>
> The difference between gritstone and sandstone is.... well I've never managed to get a straight answer on that one.
>
>
Its the cement sticking the grains together - soft, soluble(ish) iron oxides and carbonates in sandstone, hard, largely insoluble silica in grit.
Chris
PS Possibly!
In reply to Mark Bull:
Well there is that! I'll probably sack it and go to The Foundry anyway but just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be damaging the grit if I decided to be brave.
> (In reply to teflonpete)
>
>
> apart from the general unpleasantness!
>
>
> apart from the general unpleasantness!
Well there is that! I'll probably sack it and go to The Foundry anyway but just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be damaging the grit if I decided to be brave.
In reply to teflonpete:
Gritstone is mostly coarse sandstone, the stuff on Kinder is coarser and has been known to break off when wet under load. Some of the grits like the Stanage ones are finer, but still weaken a bit when soaked.
The BMC in the early years warned of this after a couple of serious accidents where flakes broke off when people were using them.
Gritstone is mostly coarse sandstone, the stuff on Kinder is coarser and has been known to break off when wet under load. Some of the grits like the Stanage ones are finer, but still weaken a bit when soaked.
The BMC in the early years warned of this after a couple of serious accidents where flakes broke off when people were using them.
In reply to teflonpete: Why would you ever want to climb wet gritstone unless you want to terrify yourself?
In reply to teflonpete: I`ve heard that pebbles are also more prone to pulling out when GODS rock is wet.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I thought it was the size of the particles rather than what sticks them together than distinguishes grit.
That said I guess what holds the particles together my also differ a bit between types of sandstone. Torridon sandstone is also very strong and doesn't seem to suffer so much with being climbed wet as some other sandstones.
I'm pretty sure the patina of grit is not as strong when wet, I was once bouldering in the roaches when some of the rock was damp, and the patina of the rock gave way. I've never had that happen to dry gritstone.
I thought it was the size of the particles rather than what sticks them together than distinguishes grit.
That said I guess what holds the particles together my also differ a bit between types of sandstone. Torridon sandstone is also very strong and doesn't seem to suffer so much with being climbed wet as some other sandstones.
I'm pretty sure the patina of grit is not as strong when wet, I was once bouldering in the roaches when some of the rock was damp, and the patina of the rock gave way. I've never had that happen to dry gritstone.
In reply to teflonpete:
dunno but last time I was out it was so wet and slippy you couldn't feel holds. Just had to swim up it like a salmon
dunno but last time I was out it was so wet and slippy you couldn't feel holds. Just had to swim up it like a salmon
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I think geologically 'grit' is indeed a gain size, but the reason Millstone Grit is such tough stuff (and was used for millstone/grindstones) is the toughness of the cement that sticks those grains together.
The Roaches is a softer more rounded rock, maybe it isn't quite as tough.
I have never really followed the 'patina' on grit theory - when the old guys were quarrying millstones and building stone they didn't leave the stuff out for decades to harden!
Chris
I think geologically 'grit' is indeed a gain size, but the reason Millstone Grit is such tough stuff (and was used for millstone/grindstones) is the toughness of the cement that sticks those grains together.
The Roaches is a softer more rounded rock, maybe it isn't quite as tough.
I have never really followed the 'patina' on grit theory - when the old guys were quarrying millstones and building stone they didn't leave the stuff out for decades to harden!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Yes I've noticed the variability in gristone myself, some of it polishes and just doesn't really crumble away yet other bits are quite crumbly under the surface. I guess for millstones they chose the stronger stuff
I notice with grit that although it is porous it holds water in puddles for a fairly long time, much like the torridon rock so I assume it is more resistant to dampness.
Yes I've noticed the variability in gristone myself, some of it polishes and just doesn't really crumble away yet other bits are quite crumbly under the surface. I guess for millstones they chose the stronger stuff
I notice with grit that although it is porous it holds water in puddles for a fairly long time, much like the torridon rock so I assume it is more resistant to dampness.
In reply to Murphoir:
Don't think I'd be doing any pebble pulling or tiny flake sort of routes in the wet!
> (In reply to teflonpete) I`ve heard that pebbles are also more prone to pulling out when GODS rock is wet.
Don't think I'd be doing any pebble pulling or tiny flake sort of routes in the wet!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Well burb south boulders clearly have a 'patina' as the worn pocks are much softer ... so its not just the softer grits or grit variants (like Birchen which is really a coal measure sandstone) that have this. Climbing on wet grit often results in dirty shoes with damp sand grinding the rock, plus flakes can be weaker... so not a thing to encourage. Lots of good boulder problem starts have been trashed by people not waiting for the rock to be dry or not cleaning shoes properly.
Well burb south boulders clearly have a 'patina' as the worn pocks are much softer ... so its not just the softer grits or grit variants (like Birchen which is really a coal measure sandstone) that have this. Climbing on wet grit often results in dirty shoes with damp sand grinding the rock, plus flakes can be weaker... so not a thing to encourage. Lots of good boulder problem starts have been trashed by people not waiting for the rock to be dry or not cleaning shoes properly.
In reply to teflonpete:
Weathering processes generally involve water but climbing erosion is meachanical and water may in fct reduce some friction but may also weaken surface layer in more porous rocks
So I don't know really
Weathering processes generally involve water but climbing erosion is meachanical and water may in fct reduce some friction but may also weaken surface layer in more porous rocks
So I don't know really
In reply to Offwidth:
>
I think this is where the 'patina' idea comes from, the rock is granular and if you keep rubbing the same bit, pieces keep breaking of so it looks different to the surrounding rock even though it isn't.
Are you sure Birchen is a Coal Measures Sandstone? I know Wharncliffe is but have never heard Birchen listed as such.
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/jpg/derby.jpg
Do people really boulder in the wet - amazing?
Chris
>
> Well burb south boulders clearly have a 'patina' as the worn pocks are much softer ... so its not just the softer grits or grit variants (like Birchen which is really a coal measure sandstone) that have this.
I think this is where the 'patina' idea comes from, the rock is granular and if you keep rubbing the same bit, pieces keep breaking of so it looks different to the surrounding rock even though it isn't.
Are you sure Birchen is a Coal Measures Sandstone? I know Wharncliffe is but have never heard Birchen listed as such.
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/jpg/derby.jpg
> Climbing on wet grit often results in dirty shoes with damp sand grinding the rock, plus flakes can be weaker... so not a thing to encourage. Lots of good boulder problem starts have been trashed by people not waiting for the rock to be dry or not cleaning shoes properly.
Do people really boulder in the wet - amazing?
Chris
In reply to teflonpete: masons use lots of water to polish stone.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
boulders often dry pretty quick, so it's not unusual to pack up if it starts raining but then start bouldering if it stops and drys up a bit. I for one will defo be waiting for the rock surface to properly dry though after accidentally damaging some grit in the past.
boulders often dry pretty quick, so it's not unusual to pack up if it starts raining but then start bouldering if it stops and drys up a bit. I for one will defo be waiting for the rock surface to properly dry though after accidentally damaging some grit in the past.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The effect he's talking about, mud grit or sand sticking to shoes is aaggravated by damp ground even if the rock is dry.
> Do people really boulder in the wet - amazing?
The effect he's talking about, mud grit or sand sticking to shoes is aaggravated by damp ground even if the rock is dry.
In reply to pdufus:
Yes, but they also shake hands funny and roll one trouser leg up...
> (In reply to teflonpete) masons use lots of water to polish stone.
Yes, but they also shake hands funny and roll one trouser leg up...
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Grit is just sandstone under a different name, there are sandstones with courser grains than the stuff at Stanage. Millstone Grit varies drastically between, say, Millstone Quarry and Jack Rock in Norhumberland (also Millstone Grit).
The bottom line is that all sandstones get weaker when wet, to a greater or lesser degree.
http://qjegh.lyellcollection.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/2/115
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> I think geologically 'grit' is indeed a gain size, but the reason Millstone Grit is such tough stuff (and was used for millstone/grindstones) is the toughness of the cement that sticks those grains together.
>
> I think geologically 'grit' is indeed a gain size, but the reason Millstone Grit is such tough stuff (and was used for millstone/grindstones) is the toughness of the cement that sticks those grains together.
Grit is just sandstone under a different name, there are sandstones with courser grains than the stuff at Stanage. Millstone Grit varies drastically between, say, Millstone Quarry and Jack Rock in Norhumberland (also Millstone Grit).
The bottom line is that all sandstones get weaker when wet, to a greater or lesser degree.
http://qjegh.lyellcollection.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/2/115
In reply to Chris Craggs: That's quite an interresting map. It makes me wonder what other climbable rock types we have tucked away in the peak. Or are all the others buried?
I too, Steve am suprised that Birchen and Wharncliffe could be the same rocktype, they are very different indeed in their nature. Their colour, roundedness/sharpness, brittleness are all very different. Or is this just weathering?
I too, Steve am suprised that Birchen and Wharncliffe could be the same rocktype, they are very different indeed in their nature. Their colour, roundedness/sharpness, brittleness are all very different. Or is this just weathering?
In reply to wayno265:
A little cracker Wayno...Loved it...
> (In reply to ndp)
> [...]
>
> Yes, but they also shake hands funny and roll one trouser leg up...
> [...]
>
> Yes, but they also shake hands funny and roll one trouser leg up...
A little cracker Wayno...Loved it...
In reply to JDal:
..and a Poodle and German Shepard are just 'dogs' under a different name, doesn't help in the real world though!
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> [...]
>
> Grit is just sandstone under a different name,
> [...]
>
> Grit is just sandstone under a different name,
..and a Poodle and German Shepard are just 'dogs' under a different name, doesn't help in the real world though!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Rubbish. Poodles and German Sheperds are different. A poodle isn't a German Shepherd. Grit IS sandstone.
> ..and a Poodle and German Shepard are just 'dogs' under a different name, doesn't help in the real world though!
>
>
Rubbish. Poodles and German Sheperds are different. A poodle isn't a German Shepherd. Grit IS sandstone.
In reply to JDal:
the article you linked - interesting that the dry strength of rock is not indicative of the percentage decrease of strength when wet.
The way I see it how strong sandstone (inc grit) is when wet / dry does not depend on the grain size. I'm sure there is harder sandstones than grit out there (in the uk torridon perhaps?)
the article you linked - interesting that the dry strength of rock is not indicative of the percentage decrease of strength when wet.
The way I see it how strong sandstone (inc grit) is when wet / dry does not depend on the grain size. I'm sure there is harder sandstones than grit out there (in the uk torridon perhaps?)
In reply to CurlyStevo: I've had holds break on me twice when climbing on grit, and both times were after a long wet spell. Never had any break in dry weather.
In reply to CurlyStevo: Yes, it's an interesting subject - extensively studied in the cause of structural engineering, since it's a common building material. I'm not sure how much it all applies to scraping bits off holds and increasing wear, but it would seem to apply to snapping flakes.
It's amazing how different the same sandstone can be in different outcrops, even in the same outcrop. Just look at the variation along the length of Bowden Doors in Northumberland, some bits are really soft and wear away easily, other bits are mega hard and sharp edged. I suppose it all depends what was happening in that particular bit of the delta when the sandstones were deposited.
It's amazing how different the same sandstone can be in different outcrops, even in the same outcrop. Just look at the variation along the length of Bowden Doors in Northumberland, some bits are really soft and wear away easily, other bits are mega hard and sharp edged. I suppose it all depends what was happening in that particular bit of the delta when the sandstones were deposited.
In reply to JDal:
True all poodles and all German Shepards are dogs, and all gritstones are sandstone BUT all sandstones are not grits.
Chris
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> [...]
>
>
> Rubbish. Poodles and German Sheperds are different. A poodle isn't a German Shepherd. Grit IS sandstone.
>
> [...]
>
>
> Rubbish. Poodles and German Sheperds are different. A poodle isn't a German Shepherd. Grit IS sandstone.
True all poodles and all German Shepards are dogs, and all gritstones are sandstone BUT all sandstones are not grits.
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Chris I have no idea why you are pointing out facts we are all aware of but anyway.
I quote from you earlier on in the thread
"In reply to petellis:
Its the cement sticking the grains together - soft, soluble(ish) iron oxides and carbonates in sandstone, hard, largely insoluble silica in grit.
Chris
"
I have to say you are wrong on that part and you seem to be making a rather weak argument after that. As others are pointing out grit is sandstone so you can't differentiate grit from all other sandstones by cement sticking the grains together many other types of sandstone also are held together with silica.
Chris I have no idea why you are pointing out facts we are all aware of but anyway.
I quote from you earlier on in the thread
"In reply to petellis:
>
>
> The difference between gritstone and sandstone is.... well I've never managed to get a straight answer on that one.
>
>
>
> The difference between gritstone and sandstone is.... well I've never managed to get a straight answer on that one.
>
>
Its the cement sticking the grains together - soft, soluble(ish) iron oxides and carbonates in sandstone, hard, largely insoluble silica in grit.
Chris
"
I have to say you are wrong on that part and you seem to be making a rather weak argument after that. As others are pointing out grit is sandstone so you can't differentiate grit from all other sandstones by cement sticking the grains together many other types of sandstone also are held together with silica.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
>
I may be wrong - but there is no doubt that the stuff we climb on and call gritstone IS different to sandstone - how could anyone who has climbed on Almscliff and Stanage as well as the Wainstones, Helsby and Corby's possibly deny that. They quarried the stuff for millstones because of its durabilty and abrasive nature which I suspect has something to do with the cement sticking the grains of quartz together.
Chris
>
> I have to say you are wrong on that part and you seem to be making a rather weak argument after that. As others are pointing out grit is sandstone so you can't differentiate grit from all other sandstones by cement sticking the grains together many other types of sandstone also are held together with silica.
I may be wrong - but there is no doubt that the stuff we climb on and call gritstone IS different to sandstone - how could anyone who has climbed on Almscliff and Stanage as well as the Wainstones, Helsby and Corby's possibly deny that. They quarried the stuff for millstones because of its durabilty and abrasive nature which I suspect has something to do with the cement sticking the grains of quartz together.
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I'm afraid I have to disagree again gritstone is a type of sandstone so the only way it differs is in the way a type of thing differs to the category it belongs to.
Anyway there are far more sandstones in britain never mind the world than the few you list around the rather tiny (on world scales) north midlands area.
I'm afraid I have to disagree again gritstone is a type of sandstone so the only way it differs is in the way a type of thing differs to the category it belongs to.
Anyway there are far more sandstones in britain never mind the world than the few you list around the rather tiny (on world scales) north midlands area.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
And all dogs aren't poodles.
The point is if you want to find out about how gritstone behaves when wet look up "sandstone". A real world example.
> (In reply to JDal)
> [...]
>
> True all poodles and all German Shepards are dogs, and all gritstones are sandstone BUT all sandstones are not grits.
> [...]
>
> True all poodles and all German Shepards are dogs, and all gritstones are sandstone BUT all sandstones are not grits.
And all dogs aren't poodles.
The point is if you want to find out about how gritstone behaves when wet look up "sandstone". A real world example.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Sorry, just because you think grit is special doesn't make it special geologically.
ps did you know there's a millstone quarry at Berryhill?
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> [...]
>
> I may be wrong - but there is no doubt that the stuff we climb on and call gritstone IS different to sandstone - how could anyone who has climbed on Almscliff and Stanage as well as the Wainstones, Helsby and Corby's possibly deny that. They quarried the stuff for millstones because of its durabilty and abrasive nature which I suspect has something to do with the cement sticking the grains of quartz together.
>
It's sandstone. A type of sandstone. There are big differences between rocks called 'grit', never mind the many sandstones. Millstone Grit is called sandstone at Jack Rock and the sandstone at The Drakestone is also called "Harbottle Grits". The sandstone at Shaftoe/Rothley gets called grit in some gelogical texts.>
> [...]
>
> I may be wrong - but there is no doubt that the stuff we climb on and call gritstone IS different to sandstone - how could anyone who has climbed on Almscliff and Stanage as well as the Wainstones, Helsby and Corby's possibly deny that. They quarried the stuff for millstones because of its durabilty and abrasive nature which I suspect has something to do with the cement sticking the grains of quartz together.
>
Sorry, just because you think grit is special doesn't make it special geologically.
ps did you know there's a millstone quarry at Berryhill?
In reply to JDal:
OK I have it now - Millstone Grit/gristone is just sandstone - obvious really. If it was in anyway different it would have its own symbol/colour on the UK geology maps.
Hang on a minute.........
Chris
I get it - you guys are just jealous!
;-0
OK I have it now - Millstone Grit/gristone is just sandstone - obvious really. If it was in anyway different it would have its own symbol/colour on the UK geology maps.
Hang on a minute.........
Chris
I get it - you guys are just jealous!
;-0
In reply to Chris Craggs:
er no....
Dream on
> (In reply to JDal)
>
> OK I have it now - Millstone Grit/gristone is just sandstone - obvious really. If it was in anyway different it would have its own symbol/colour on the UK geology maps.
>
> OK I have it now - Millstone Grit/gristone is just sandstone - obvious really. If it was in anyway different it would have its own symbol/colour on the UK geology maps.
er no....
> I get it - you guys are just jealous!
>
> ;-0
>
> ;-0
Dream on
In reply to howlingbaboon:
Both Crawshaw (sp) ? coal measure sandstones according to the old geology intros (read, I think, 1970 Chatsworth)
Both Crawshaw (sp) ? coal measure sandstones according to the old geology intros (read, I think, 1970 Chatsworth)
In reply to teflonpete:
Oh God, look what you've started!
Soon the ethical puritans will be chastising others for climbing when the rock is not perfectly bone dry.
Climbing wet grit will join bolts, dry tooling, turf and abseil stations in the loony rant threads that go on and on and on and.....
Oh God, look what you've started!
Soon the ethical puritans will be chastising others for climbing when the rock is not perfectly bone dry.
Climbing wet grit will join bolts, dry tooling, turf and abseil stations in the loony rant threads that go on and on and on and.....
In reply to Offwidth:
Here's a bit of Ted Hughes for Mr Craggs to learn:
'Millstone Grit - a soul-grinding sandstone. Roof-of-the-world-ridge wind, And rain, and rain.'
Here's a bit of Ted Hughes for Mr Craggs to learn:
'Millstone Grit - a soul-grinding sandstone. Roof-of-the-world-ridge wind, And rain, and rain.'
In reply to 3leggeddog:
Excellent 'reactionary opinionated cynicism' there. Good job most people care about minimising our impact where we can for the sake of future climbers though.
Excellent 'reactionary opinionated cynicism' there. Good job most people care about minimising our impact where we can for the sake of future climbers though.
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