UKC

What's the ethics surrounding adding maillons and chain/ lower off rings to routes currently with only a double staple?

I know a few routes I have done or even projected have ended on a double staple, it would be pretty easy and potentially a way to give back by buying a few maillons and ab rings just to stick on and leave. Is there a reason why thats a bad idea and that money should just go into local bolting funds instead? 

You need to be careful making sure the materials of the maillons, rings and staples all match otherwise there is a risk of galvanic corrosion. Obviously you'll also need to choose appropriately rated stuff too (i.e. strong enough).

I'd get in touch with your local bolt fund and see what hardware they recommend. Hopefully they're fairly competent people so they'll be able to point you in the right direction.

Good that you want to get involved and give something back but definitely don't add  mallions to anything, they're not designed to be a long term fixed gear and end up getting rusted shut and have to be cut off, and get in the way in the meantime...

If the route has a double staple there's no need to add anything, just leave them as is and rethread I know that a pain but seeing as only the last person in the group has to do this on the last ascent it's not too bad.

I'd say the best way to give back is to donate to bolt funds.

A maillon on a staple with a rope through it is liable to pinch the rope against the rock. A pair of them will cause quite an awkward rope route through them with the possibility for it to unscrew the maillons. Can't see how you could practically add a ring and unless it incorporated a twist the issues are similar.

I'm not sure it's the best way for you to contribute.

jk

Ah yeah the corrosion part is a good point, I was just assuming chucking on a decently strong stainless maillon would do it but obviously it's not alway as straight forward. 

Good advice! 

My thought with the ring was staple > maillon > ring. I have seen that set up perhaps in America (as they call them rappel rings which is a give away!). 

Sounds like a good idea. Rings last a lot longer as rope-wear tends to be spread out and it means an easy replace job when they need doing (instead of chopping bolts and re-drilling the whole BB). 

I think all staples are stainless so any good Maillon Rapide of the same material should work. 

Edit: I don't know why some of the above comments are against the idea? If you have a mallion and a lower-off ring then the rope won't kink or twist against the rock and the rope won't undo the mallions. Yes, the ring will wear out and need to be replaced at some point as well but chopping a mallion and replacing on in-situ staples is a lot less faff than having to chop and replace staples entirely.  

Don't think I can post a picture, but the second image of the link below was what I was thinking. Shouldn't twist the ropes!

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/anchor-induced-rope-twisting

I'm against it as I've never seen an equipper use a mallion in a belay setup (because, like I said, they're not designed as long term fixed protection).

I have seen them be added to routes by other climbers.  If I got to the top of the route and found that the staples had been fitted with Mallions and a ring I'd assume that they it had been added by a climber and then I have no idea whether they know what they're doing, they've bought the correct type (you can buy a mallion in Wickes for around a quid), how long they've been there, whether they are corroded etc. 

Basically I wouldn't trust them, and would prefer to just use the staples and rethread, but then that isn't really an option anymore as there's some f*cking mallions in the way now.

EDIT:  Come to think of it I might have seen a mallion on a setup somewhere in Italy, but there was all kinds of rusty old crap on those routes.  Didn't like it.

Basically because it's unnecessary mess.

jk

This is the dream set up

They'll be unnecessary when no one top-ropes through the staples and everyone abseils off the top when they've finished the route. Most of the routes around here are single-unit hangers with rings in but I've definitely seen rings on mallions used frequently. There's also loads of mallions on mallions in the South Wales quarries. 

You don't know the origin of the expansion bolts in the rock either, yet you're happy to clip those. If the right thing is put in by someone who knows what they're doing then I don't see the problem, and I'd rather that than lowering off scary worn-out staples or unsightly chopped stubs. 

Equipping a whole route is a bit of a different endeavour than somebody screwing some mallions and a ring onto a route somebody else has equipped though isn't it?  It's generally not something someone would embark on without really knowing what they're doing.

With all due respect to the OP, whose intention to help out is great, he doesn't really know what he's doing.  He's never equipped any routes and doesn't have the level of experience that an equpper would.

In general I'd say just leave the gear as you find it, put money in bolt funds, and report any issues via the correct channels.

Leave the equipping to the equippers.

Or alternatively, get in touch with the bolt funds around, they always need more hands, and will probably have the appropriate kit and enthusiasm to show you what needs doing. If it's peak based, feel free to message directly  

Absolutely, even better!

A fair few misconceptions coming out here, some sadly based on "I've never seen it therefore it's wrong" which is about as Luddite as it gets.

The OP never mentioned maillons alone, they wrote "maillons and chain/lower off (sic) rings.

Maillons are neither permanent nor temporary, their lifespan is indeterminate. In the context of lower-offs they last as long as anything else of the same material.

They (maillons, chain and/or rings) are a popular and established way to build robust, long lived and easily replaceable top-anchors, I'll be sending 50 sets to a VERY experienced developer in China tomorrow, sent 150 to the USA last week and sold maybe 3000 last year if not more. And on my job list for tommorow is another 60 for Norway.

Yeah I looked at your site and I know you sell them (and I know all your gear is top notch stuff), but that still doesn't mean that we should be encouraging anyone who doesn't  really know what they're doing to be adding anything to sport routes does it?

For example there might be a reason why the original equipper didn't add a lower off that the OP doesn't understand.

Call me a luddite* all you want (and I didn't say it was wrong, I said I'm against it, it a personal view not a statement of fact) but saying leaving equipping to people who know what they're doing is never wrong and I've seen far more shit, rusty, seized up mallions on routes than the decent gear you make.

*luddite is someone who is against the adoption of new technology.  I think the term you're looking for is "naïve".

Thanks for the interesting replies guys, was good to hear people's thoughts.

The answer seems to be to get in touch with the local bolt fund... Now just gotta wait till I can leave lockdown.

Lots of anchors down Stoney have had Maillon/rap ring added to the glue in bolts to extend the life of the belay - including the BMC provided lower off simulator at the bottom of Horseshoe Quarry. Great solution in my eyes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWraUlYcB0k&feature=emb_logo

A stainless steel mallion and ring is a perfectly acceptable way to build and preserve the life of a belay from the scourge of the top roper. They are a common sight throughout the country from Dorset, Cumbria, Wales and the Peak District. All the routes at the BMC owned Horseshoe are equipped this way.

Your questions is about when it is not appropriate to install a mallion and ring?

For example in an area where we are trying to make as little visual impact as possible ie in a nature reserve near a public footpath where access is very sensitive. A steep hard sport route is unlikely to see the traffic or inexperienced people trying in vain to top rope of the anchors. A pair of mallions and rings that I get for the Peak bolt fund cost £27 a pop. I can assure you they won't be going on an 8a overhanging the path at Rubicon but will be used on a 6c in one of the many popular quarries.

I don't think ethics come into it - it's survival! One option might be a ramshead - see Jim Titt's Bolt Products site. These can be tapped onto one of his glue-in bolts (anything else and you're in trouble) with a hammer. You then have to link this bolt to the backup bolt with a chain & maillon (measure carefully - and  the Bolt Product maillons are heftier pieces of kit than what you get in B&Q) - you should be able to tap in the first link in the back up chain. Ideally practice beforehand on the ground and take advice from Jim Titt. One problem with screw-up maillons is that people steal them (honestly!) so that you have to glue them shut anyway. Trouble with attaching a ring with a maillon/chain is that you've got to untie and thread - ramshead is much more covenient and a clip and go crab is better still though I've never attached one of them after the fact. It's hard enough without idiot top-ropers and gear thieves but Jim Titt's website and the man himself is a good source of advice. Good luck!

You can get stainless maillons and rings. A better bet than staples that, you can guarantee, people will top rope,

I've seen them all over

So I understand.  I mean I've seen belays made up of a couple of bolts connected with a loop of rope, doesn't mean I would encourage other people to go start doing that to climbs they haven't equipped.

You seem to have a very set idea so I'm not sure that any amount of other people saying differently will change your mind. What I don't quite understand is why you think this is such a complex matter. There are only really a couple of different materials involved which means avoiding galvanic corrosion is pretty straight forward. Stainless and plated steel. You can get maillions and rings in both and as long as you keep stainless with stainless and plated with plated you'll not cause serious issues. Once you've looked at a few bolts it's easy enough to tell which is which. Staples are nearly all stainless and the damage cause by toprope is significant. In my view it is actually as great service to protect those staples with a maillion and abseil ring which can be added in a matter of seconds. Rusted just? Well that would only be plated, and as I say, you don't really get plated staples...

I never said anything about galvanic corrosion or metal types, I wouldn't have a clue about such things.  I think you're attributing arguments to me that I haven't made?

I did say I don't like mallions, as more times than not I've seen poor quality ones getting in the way on routes and belays than I have quality ones left by equippers.  This is a personal opinion based on my own experience. 

Now, I'm told that in some areas it's quite common to use them as part of a belay setup, which is new info for me and that's fine, but I would prefer it if people would not take it upon themselves to add this gear to belays whenever they see fit as they may not have the level of experience or knowledge needed to do this correctly. 

This is borne out by the OP's admission that he (like me) wasn't aware of the issues surrounding galvanic corrosion and also we're to assume that he isn't aware of any other issues as to why a lower off chain hasn't been added (for example this may be an aesthetic agreement with the landowner).

If you don't agree with my reasoning that's fine, but I stand by my assertion that experienced equippers who are aware of any and all issues surrounding a certain route or crag should be the only ones who make alterations to the fixed gear. 

Frankly, I don't think encouraging people to go ahead and make changes after doing no more than ask a question on an internet forum is ethical, and is potentially adding risk to a situations where it's not needed as the in situ staples are fine as is.

Stainless Maillon and ring is standard practice, the only reason they are not in each plain double bolt lower off is the cost

Also much better for not kinking your rope and reducing the wear on the rope let alone the wear on the bolts 

Stainless maillons come out after many years even in a sea cliff environment so that's not an issue

The main issue can be finding a quality spot for a lower off, good rock may be limited and therefore wearing the belay/anchor bolts  is not an option

therefore wearing out a ring and replacing in 10 years time is the best option

Some more detail may ease minds and resolve some detail.

I was mostly thinking about popular crags which are bolted and mostly have anchors, but perhaps a few routes lack an anchor more than the two staples. What popped to mind is Blacknor South which has some very low graded routes which are newer than the Rockfax guidebook and bolted around ~2008. I assume the new developer had slightly different priorities, and perhaps couldn't justify the £35+ for each route to have a chained anchor (can't say I blame them!) 

The few times I have been to that crag I have seen they are well traveled routes so I would love for that to continue, and since chopping bolts and adding new ones is a pretty bad solution this seemed like a good route to enquire about. 

And once you have asked/checked the bolt fund about what they use and what they recommend, screwing a maillon on is hardly an expert endeavor - perhaps that comes as a disadvantage when people decide to use them as bail biners. 

Most people don't take a spanner up with them on routes and most people aren't thieving cnuts (although it seems someone dead take an anchor I put in this year at Portishead Quarry to try and protect a tree at the top).

If you do them up reet tight or glue them as someone else suggested, no bother.  

You're also attributing an argument to me I didn't make - I didn't say you said anything about galvanic corrosion. What I DID indicate is that with a very modest amount of knowledge any old tom dick or harry can appropriate the knowledge with which they can select the correct equipment and safely add it to a belay station. You say that only experienced equippers should do this, well I can pretty much guarantee that most crags do not have a crag police who ensure that the right thing is done, especially at older venues where the knowledge was not so readily available at the time of equipping, as it is now through the medium of internet forums. The one and only point of importance is that you do not mix stainless bolts with plated steel hangers or equipment. Other than that there is not really anything to be said on it. Your aesthetic argument is perhaps more valid, although adding a welded lower off ring and a maillion is hardly going to affect aesthetics more than the original bolt. Indeed long term, prolonging the life of the equipment avoids unsightly bolt stubs being left when it comes to replacing the prematurely worn anchors. 

Passing on kosher knowledge in my opinion is absolutely the point of these forums and the height of being ethical. Whether the OP decides to do this sort of thing remains to be seen - if he feels unsure he should absolutely seek out the original equippers, although that is easier said than done sometimes. Either that or he could approach someone like Jim who is as knowledgeable about bolting as literally anybody on the planet - he makes them, sits on safety boards, advises equippers across the world... you couldn't find a more appropriate person to ask these questions... 

I've no issue with you at all mate, I wish more people would want to get involved and put something back in.  You're doing the right thing and speaking to the right people to get the right advice.  You're cool.

I'll admit that I slightly misunderstood your intentions in your original question and thought you were just going to add a mallion with a ring on it to the belay.  In addition to people using mallions as bail diners, I've seen people put them onto lower offs as they don't know how, or don't want to rethread.  This is super annoying as they get rusted shut, and clutter up the belay, so that probably coloured my first answer.

It's frustrating that threads here so often descend into a willy waving contest about who can be more right of course I'm guilty of contributing to this, but I just wish it wasn't so.

Listen I think we're going round in circles, I've laid out what meant and my opinion pretty clearly in other posts.  He's seeking advice from those in the know.  I'm happy with that, and you seem to be too. 

Let's call it a day as I'm you're a good bloke and I can't see the point in us continuing to argue the toss about nothing.  What good can come of this?

If you give Marti a shout from the Dorset Bolt Fund, I'm sure he'll happily give you some rings and maillons which are suitable, or point you in the right direction. A bit of heavy duty threadlock helps deter casual theft and keep the maillon securely threaded shut. For places where bottom roping is common, rings are better than ram's horns because they wear evenly and thus last longer, which is one reason we chose them for Horseshoe. Ram's horns win for convenience and the safety bonus of not needing to rethread, but any keen sport climber is going to need to learn how to do that anyway so...

Absolutely, just surprised you think it's a complex issue. I can relate because I've seen my fair share of fixed mank, but once you're on the path to righteousness, it's not so difficult to be goodly

Maybe one day when I want to get into bolting I'll research and realise how easy it is!

"Fixed mank" I like that!

A maillon attaching a ring to a staple sits perfectly. 

If the ring and maillon and staple are same material then no corrosion issues and as the ring is free to spin it distributes the wear evenly round the rings interior surface area. Whereas lowering off the staples rapidly wears through the stainless steel as its always in the same place and requires either cutting off or worse drilling out (staples cant be "unscrewed" like single leg resin anchors to replace).

So yes if you want to add maillons and rings to staples please go ahead but maybe check with the equippers as to the material that the staples are made of. Also use rings/maillons that are certified such as from Bolt Products, Fixe or Raumer.

I always think the fixed snap gate ‘looks’ like the dream setup by in the real world often isn’t. I’ve found much of the time two things happen; #1 the gate becomes mega stiff and #2 the basket of the carabiner gets really worn out with all the focus abrasion, before long they get sharp. 
 

They might be easy to clip but it only takes 30s to thread a ring and you only need to do it once; when you strip your draws. 

Ye true, also costs a fortune!

2 side by side staples is probably best. Just need to educate people not to thread and top tope on it!