UKC

Looking forward to my first trip to the Slabs on saturday. Hoping they will be in good condition after the good weather spell.

making an early start so hoping to bag a couple of the classic routes.

Spartan Slab and hammer.

Any idea about time scales for getting up them (how long is a piece of string I know but roughly - I tend not to hang about when climbing!)

Any other beta? I don't want to drag my dragon 5 and Friend 3.5 up if I'm not going to need them!

In reply to Stevie989:

Best bit of advice for the slabs? If there isn't much of a breeze make sure you have a midge net and industrial strength midge repellant...

Wouldn't bother taking big cams on spartan slab, don't think I placed any. Normal rack, it's really well protected unlike some of the other etive routes, loads of mid sized nuts and cams.

As for how long? If you're solid at climbing multi-pitch VS/HVS, I would think hammer and spartan are easily doable in a day.

enjoy

In reply to Stevie989:

If you've not climbed on Etive before then your first pitch on lead will take a while regardless of grade. After a pitch or two you get used to it and pitches take a lot less time.

As far as gear goes - probably the biggest bits of gear are needed for the cracks under the overlaps but I can't remember needing anything bigger than around Friend 2.5 but I've not done SS or Hammer so don't know if they are different.

In reply to CMcBain:

It's too be a SSE breeze of 5mph with guts of up to 11 - Famous last words and all that but I tend not to get harassed as much as others by the midge!

I'm solid up to E1 but not a whole lot of Multi pitch experience.

In reply to Stevie989:

Might be enough to keep them away, although i'd defo take a midge net as a precaution!

I usually think I don't get bothered by midges as much as others but etive is the only place where i've been properly savaged by them.

If you're leading E1 then you'll probably find them fine, although as Bob said its quite a different style of climbing depending on what your used to. Maybe factor in a wee bit more time for belay faff if your not so used to multi-pitch, but spartan is probably a good choice, nice big belay ledges on most pitches.

A pair of shoes for the descent might be useful as well as I remember it being not very 'rock shoe' friendly, although it was a bit damp when I was last there!

In reply to Stevie989:

I'd say that you can safely leave the big cams behind, but then extra weight on your harness won't really be a drawback on the slabs anyway. Both routes have a distinct crux with pretty easy climbing elsewhere, so you shouldn't need to take too long over them, and climbing both with an early start is feasible.

In reply to Wicamoi:

Here's my pic of the crux of Spartan Slab.. 5th photo down. I know, it looks easy!

In reply to Stevie989:

Spartan and Hammer is the classic double-bill on the slabs - it's not a long day. This may be at least in part due to less time spent placing gear!

In reply to Andes:

It's fair to say that the crux on SS is very distinct indeed - but you have not provided a link to your photo.

In reply to Wicamoi:

The crux is very distinct but it isn't the well protected crux overlap unless you are a crack incompeteant.

In reply to Offwidth:

Most climbers in Scotland are though! I am trying to imagine where the crack-competent climber's crux would be and failing.

In reply to Wicamoi:

The 4a slab near the top which suffers weeps and is super exposed due to the undercutting overlap below. Its VS 4a in good conditions where the crack to me feels S 4c.

In reply to Wicamoi:

The bold 4a slab near the top which suffers weeps and is super exposed due to the undercutting overlap below. It feels like VS 4a to me in good conditions where the crack to me feels S 4c.

In reply to Offwidth:

Ah, you mean the slab incompetent's crux!

In reply to Stevie989:

Went there for the first time recently. The walk in isn't that far but requires a lot of bush waking and is also super wet under foot.

Some of the routes within the guide seem to start a way off the 'bottom' of the crag. We traversed in from the right to get to Hammer and that was harder than anything on the route!!

S

In reply to Samuel Wainwright:

Sounds like you overshot the start on the walk in (we did the same but walked back to the start of the route once we spotted it), the path does get a bit more vague after the coffin stone though.

Cheers,

Stu

In reply to Stevie989:

Since your after Beta.........

The SMC guide refernces a piton / ring as the marker for traversing right on the pitch after the scoop (4th I think??) - this is no longer there so don't keep climbing looking for it!

Cheers,

Stuart

In reply to Wicamoi:

I'm always doing that.

Here's my pic of the crux of Spartan Slab.. 5th photo down. I know, it looks easy!

http://www.johnbiggar.com/favourite-rockclimbing-crags.asp

In reply to Wicamoi:
Yes sure but its also about VS boldness competance in uncertain conditions, as well as technique, yet in the case of the crack if you fail you only harm your dignity. Spartan Slab overlap is only a technical grade harder than say the awkward move near the top of A climb at Ilkley (and easier to protect with normal gear as well). Its one of the few "5a" moves I've chosen to do in rain for the fun of it (before reversing the moves and bailing).

In reply to Stevie989:

Don't discount the drive in to Glen Etive itself - this messed us up last October when we tried to do Spartan Slab but a) got up too late b) didn't camp in Glen Etive and had to drive in.

In reply to Andes:

Best description I got was that if you can mount a horse, you can get over that overlap in the same motion. Given the clattering I gave my shin I've stayed away from horses since..........

Stu

In reply to Offwidth:

Which 4a pitch do you mean? Both the pitches after the crux move are 4c/4b respectively and well protected (I thought). The initial pitches are 4a but again neither are poorly protected, VS 4a is a death grade, I didn't think anything on SS would deserve that sort of grade.

In reply to Stevie989:

cheers guys.

Was intending climbing with a pack for the shoes etc.

In reply to CMcBain:

Ah... grading and the reality of the slabs. I fell 30' seconding the Hammer traverse when a snow storm caught us one Easter...I couldn't communicate I had a huge loop of slack to my belayer and I either moved fast or was stuck fast. Led the last pitch making cute raspberry ripple patterns on the snowed rock.

The bold 4a bit is on the last main slab pitch and maybe slightly off whatever constitutes an official line these days; the official tech grade on the pitch is for a harder well protected crack move. I didn't even notice it until I hit it when wet. Just looked at the latest SMC Glencoe guide and things are much more obvious in the guidebook these days (my partner got lost and had an epic on the first pitch the first time I tried, I then did it 3 times cleanly, then bailed once (with the fun crux up and down in the rain) and then had an assisted finish/rescue once (also due to seeps and rain) To me VS 4a on the slabs more likely means significant skin loss than death.

The Pause makes both the above routes look rather ordinary...best route Ive climbed in the UK and was glad I got one of the bold 5a pitches (at least I was after the event

In reply to Stevie989:

The pause is next on the list.... 3 routes in a day might be pushing it.

In reply to Stevie989:
Pause is a lifetime event for an HVS leader not a third route in a day (epic and solid bold E1 5a with some HVS 5b bits)

In reply to Offwidth:

I once fell off Agony . . . . . . It was

In reply to Stevie989:

Ended up just Spartan.

By the time we got up and back down it was early afternoon and there was a pair on the crux pitch of the Hammer so called it a day.


Fantastic route and benchmark VS I think. Pitch 5 was the best and felt like the crux but that could be due to exposure and the fact its a bit more run out.

For a good part of it you're climbing with the best holds the peg scars.

In reply to Stevie989:


Would agree with Offwidth that Pause is a class above the other two (though they're both very good in themselves). Fine at HVS - definitely no E1 5a pitches!

In reply to Stevie989:

Very quiet today and everyone was on hammer.
If anyone here was behind us then we have some photos.
Long reach chalked up, couldn't see if the other harder stuff had been done recently.

And no midgies!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Certainly two solid E1 5a/4c pitches above the main overlap as some pegs have rotted and you have long runouts; my partners and I are not soft graders being gritheads (and who have climbed many a californian granite slab so know the style well...5.8/7 R/X Tuolumne). The 'crux' traverse under the main overlap is HVS 5b and laceable. The finish pitch is good value HVS as well. SMC grades also say E1.

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree that the traverse into the crevasse is quite tricky, we'll have to agree to disagree about the pitches above though (wouldn't have said they were that bold).

In reply to Michael Gordon:

It was certainly an introduction to a much different style of climbing than the central belt cragging I'm used to.

I really enjoyed the traversing on spartan. It'll be a coin flip between Hammer and The pause on the next trip!

In reply to Stevie989:

yes, I remember a nice bit after the crux overlap where you just walk along a crack. Easy but quite cool!

In reply to Stevie989:

It has been soloed spartan except chalk bag and rock boots. Not a pretty sight for those below!

In reply to Lone Rider:

I think you mean nude soloed and by implication you think the soloist is ugly when unclothed (a potentially dangerous accusation to someone that hard).

In reply to Michael Gordon:

55 UKC logbook votes and 8 for tough HVS and the rest (except the 2 for easy E2) as E1 and averaging mid grade. Its hardly a route for inexperienced ticker's looking for a first easy E1 (ie one which would get the Stanage 'easy VS gets a mid grade vote' distortion). Even if you are arguing each pitch on its own is only tough HVS the combination of such would normally make E1 with route finding and seriousness factored in. I led the route with RP's, tricams and aliens so could use pretty much any gear possibility available and I thought those two pitches were very bold. So yeah, agree to disagree :-0

In reply to Offwidth:

The OP says he's solid at E1 and has lead E2.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
No one is solid at E1 unless they have led a good bit harder than E2. I'm pretty solid at VS slabs and have onsighted E2 (all slabs).

In reply to Offwidth:
and you've lead the harder bold pitches on the pause right?

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Ah a typo: old becomes bold!

Led one of the two and smiled as my normally better slab climbing pal tried to avoid then wibbled up the other.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm guilty of thinking I should be a better climber than I am so when I say Solid at E1 I have onsighted single pitch E1's (softly graded and 'good' E1's) in the central belt and felt comfortable at that grade with only Dumbarton's Longbow worrying me when I was halfway up! I have onsighted a handful of E2's in the quarries but I wouldn't say I was quite there with them yet. I lack technique but I can try hard.

I find the more mountain-esq routes a different kettle of fish though and find it takes a different approach and its one that I enjoy although I would like to push the grades here I am wary of getting myself into bother.

In reply to Stevie989:

If you onsighted Longbow safely then to my mind you're solid on E1 as that's quite a hard one. Obviously slabs and bold routes are a totally different kettle of fish, many of which I wouldn't recommend someone to do unless they were confident on E2 (odd as that may seem!). Believe me the Pause would not be one of these routes and the only (dubious) justification for giving it E1 to my mind would be because, as Offwidth says, it's quite sustained.

To be fair the Slabs are basically cragging and the main challenge will always be the boldness. On more typical (steeper!) mountain cliffs though my advice would be just to go for difficult stuff, provided it's well protected! Apart from things like avoiding carrying 2 sacks, there's no dark art to mountain routes - it's essentially just single pitch routes on top of one another.

In reply to Stevie989:

I would say Ninety-Five is a hard E1. Abstract Art is quite tricky as well of course.

In reply to Stevie989:

Very honest and I wish you luck.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I found Ninety-Five alright to be fair. Longbow was hard as it was so sustained and that slightly intimidating way that all Dumbarton routes can be. Abstract was great, crux pretty low abd then a wee reachy move at the end.

In reply to Offwidth:
I think you mean nude soloed and by implication you think the soloist is ugly when unclothed (a potentially dangerous accusation to someone that hard).

I think I know what I look like and does spartan not also mean with very little clothing. Also soloed Hammer, Pause and Spartan again a number of times plus led Swastika on same day just to burn off some GUM club members off.

Cycled back to Glasgow for good measure the next day.

In reply to Lone Rider:

Brilliant reposte

In reply to Lone Rider:

I kid you not - awesome!

In reply to Stevie989:

When I first did SS in about 1975 pitch 5 was the recognised crux. At that time there was a nice tree below the overlap which made it a lot easier than it looks to be now. I agree about The Pause and am delighted to know it's now E1, I must have been a better climber than I thought I was, back then.

In reply to Ken McCulloch:
The overlap is a bomber protected sequence: just jam/work-up, throw your leg over and rock with a bit of umph onto the slab. It can only be the adjectival crux for those with no feel or imagination at the grade. Part of the problem here is technical incompetants or better climbers trying to force a view different to the onsight VS leader. Some naturally bold climbers at the VS grade might disagree but in grading the nominal consensus is the key (such boldness isnt the norm). You can say the same for The Pause but it has probably got a little bolder in places with the demise of rusting pegs as better shoes and micro pro make it easier.

In reply to Ken McCulloch:

Is pitch 5 the one where you have an awkward 4c move at the end of the pitch stepping on to a sort of block shaped bit of granite? IIRC the last bit of gear was a peg several metres below my feet and then a cam below that. Felt bold and exposed to me but I wasn't leading harder than VS really on single pitch granite at the time and the slabs are an unusual style in the UK away from Scotland.

In reply to Offwidth:

Is there actually a consensus that the pitch above the overlap is the crux? Or are opinions much more divided?

Certainly a lot of folk, myself included, would say the overlap is by far the crux. My take on it is it's quite a tricky 5a move if jamming isn't one's strong point, whereas whatever boldness may or may not be on the pitch above is outweighed by the easy climbing.

In reply to Offwidth:


you can't have it both ways!

In reply to Michael Gordon:
Of course you can as these are two different sets of people coming up with the same erroneus assertion for completely different reasons. The bold VS leader will have a correct assertion but I think an outvoted one.

I think the move is hard 4c or maybe easy 5a compared to 3 star jammjng routes. If you find such moves hard you are commenting based ona skill gap.

In reply to Offwidth:

To be fair, VS leaders will usually find 5a moves (even if 'easy 5a') hard as that's near the upper end of the tech range. Like E1 leaders will usually find 5c moves hard.

In reply to Offwidth:


Thanks, My only concern was getting over the overlap unscathed as I was thinking my luck was in for later that night with a young fresher!

In reply to Stevie989:

I'll never forget the horrors of my first day on the slabs.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Where do you get this stuff? I know nervous VS leaders who can climb 6b. My feeling is for the majority of climbers (all but the brave/stupid) its only with a lot of experience they get to consistently push at tech limits on lead. In any case if you cant do 5a jamming moves you still cant get the right to influence grades of such moves, otherwise a pure VS jamming classic like The File would be E1 now. Thats why I beleive in a nominal consensus (of those with the neccesary basic skills) rather than an actual consensus, as grades would be all over the place otherwise.

In reply to Offwidth:
I'd agree with you totally on this. I have a french 8a climbing mate who can't jam and thus he hates it. He even fell off seconding me on Embankment 2 earlier this year and both of us have made efforts since to try and get some jamming skills but it's slow and difficult. Every crack climb feels the same grade grade - as in, just beyond our limit, there's no way either of us could grade jamming cracks. Despite him onsighting E3/f7b regularly and me even having a go at Eng 6a on lead (failing miserably every time), our opinion on crack grades should really count for nothing. Leave that to the experts.

In reply to Offwidth:

In this case I'd rather an actual consensus than one from a few self proclaimed experts.

In reply to Michael Gordon:
You mean like those people who do new routes and grade them and those who write up crags for guidebooks and edit guidebooks? Bloody experts...they don't know their arse from their elbow. It's a good job we have mass population data available to grade.

In reply to Offwidth:

Its a weird one grading. I can only really tell you if a move is:

As hard a move as I can climb.
Easier than the hardest move I can climb.
Harder than the Hardest move I can climb.

I can tell the difference between 5b and 5c and 5c and 6a.

The difference between 4a and 4b? I find it hard to tell. 6b and 6c? Haven't a clue.

In reply to Offwidth:


No, I mean those who think they know better than others. If you can climb a route clean and onsight, your opinion should be as valid as anyone elses'.

The Etive Slabs are fairly unique for the UK, so the best way to consider the grading of many of the routes is by comparison with the other stuff there. Spartan is different, being generally safer, more positive and less reliant on pure friction, and as such I'd have thought any VS climber would be able to give a fair assessment of the route.

In reply to Stevie989:




That's fairly common, and grading the latter will probably often involve more head-scratching for FAs than doing stuff near their limit! All they can do though, like anyone else, is give it their best stab.

In reply to Michael Gordon:
So how do we collect and average all these opinions? UKC is making a good start but I know not so far below half the number to those who have voted (around a hundred on UKC), along with useful wider detail on their boldness and crack climbing skills (that is hard to get from the database). Plus most of my mates were sub extreme leaders at the time they did it (plus our club worked with and talked extensively to some pretty experienced mountain guides who had contributed to the SMC volume).

Even so, sticking to independant data, the UKC consensus is very top end 4c with what looks like roughly a quarter grade standard deviation with as many comments about the bold slab as the awkward overlap; and earlier in this thread we had a similar story with The Pause where the average UKC info closely matched my view (influenced by my pals and the guidebook contibuting mountain guides), rather than yours. You complain about self proclaimed experts but I see much more of a best attempt at thoughtful open assessment.

In reply to Offwidth:

OK, if you've made a point of talking to that many people specifically about Spartan, then I respect the conclusions you've arrived at. I'm not sure the UKC data is quite so conclusive, but you've made a good case for the value of a nominal consensus.

On UKC I do think there is an element of folk simply voting for whatever the current grade is (e.g. Pause now E1), but one cannot really know how much of a factor that may be.

In reply to all:

The current system is working just fine thanks.