UKC

A rather wise (and slightly older) climber explained to me quite a few years ago that a) most climbers need about two tech grades (english) to spare when leading trad but b) as you get more experienced you will squeeze that differential to a grade or less even.

That has stood me in good stead for a long time.

What do others think?

In reply to JonC: I imagine it depends on how big your balls are and how confident you are in placing gear.

In reply to Jack Whiteley:

well, yes, clearly.

The point is that your balls grow bigger with experience

In reply to JonC: Sounds about right to me. I can get a 6b move after a few goes, get most 6a moves onsight bouldering or as a single very well protected move, and 5c onsight with decent gear (the hardest things I've done are 5c with a bit of boldness). 5b's OK for bold, but a bit stiff for the onsight solo.

I'd like to squeeze the gap to get to 6a moves when the gear's decent and 5c with a bit of a run-out, but I think it could take a while. Hard climbing with gear at your feet or below is, I think, always scary. I've found it easier to increase the level of what's 'hard' rather than get around the fear...those who can do the latter make much better trad climbers I would think.

In reply to Jack Whiteley:

for example, you can boulder reasonably hard yet your hardest lead is HS...

you shoud be leading a lot harder even at the relatively inexperienced end of the spectrum

man up and get on those serious routes

In reply to Jon Stewart:

you can boulder v6 and have only led E2?!

not meaning to take the p*ss, i can see how that can happen as I think you can become good tech quite fast and yet not get the trad experience.

my experience is more the other way around, tech rubbish but leading harder without getting tech better, lol !

In reply to JonC:

Hahaha, good call, I want too, im aiming to get on VS's next time I get out.
The only problem being my main climbing partner is better at cracks and jamming than slabby stuff like im into, and he climbs a grade lower than me to start with

In reply to JonC:

Aha but what about those oddities like HS 5b and VS 5b?

In reply to JonC:

Really it depends on how you climb. I cant speak for Jon but I have climb more than once a week on indoor boulder walls, and only get to do trad very rarely. So it is only common sense that I am more likely to get a higher grade bouldering as I simply do it more...

In reply to JonC: I've bouldered V10 but only led E2, mainly because i'm a wimp, but your tech grade assesment seems to work for me, as i've flashed 6c moves in safety but not onsighted harder than 6a on trad. I need to do more sport climbing.

In reply to JonC: I assume that you are comparing against sports grades. I've been climbing for so long that I can make a direct correlation on most routes i.e. I'm climbing 6b+ on sport and E2/3 on trad. The reason for this apart from being an old fart who has been around a long time is that I treat sports climbs exactly the same way as trad and climb them on sight from the ground up and hopefully with no rests. I prpbably do manage to push it a bit more on sport but not significantly.

Al

In reply to Jack Whiteley:


ah well - now that's a whole different discussion really. Everyone climbs to their strengths to an extent. My climbing partner and I have made a career out of doing just that. I'm a total wimp and lead all the slab pitches and he does all the thrutchy chimneys. Our body types lend us to those types respectively. For example, the Direct on the Mirroir d'Argetine - he leads most of the thrutchy opening chimney pitches (apart from the dripping letterbox pitch - thanks mate) then I get to head for glory and run up the last 8 (?) slab pitches.

In reply to tradlad:

no. did I mention sports grades? i specifically referred to english grades.

In reply to JonC:

I've only ever led a few 5c (UK tech) trad routes; lots of 5b. I don't think I've ever done a 6a move on either end of the rope, and usually need a couple of goes at 5c following.

In reply to tradlad:

I treat sport climbs like this but there is a greater disparity - leading VS trad and 6a+ sport.

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

you see i get that and I'm not sure the seroiousnes (adjectival grade) has a lot to do with it.

for many years I could actually climb english 5c/6a and was leading 5a/5b on any adj grade route within reason. It was more of a tech ability thing than anything.

then gradually as my trad head kicked in i started to squeeze the difference, even as my tech ability dropped. To the point I was regularly leading E1/2 5b and yet 5c was my absolute limit. One tech grade, with experience.

I'd be dangerous if I could actually climb

In reply to JJL:

sounds sort of like me

In reply to JonC: I think i just need to lose the fear, and get used to the idea that falling won't kill me, i need to get more mileage, as you say.

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

i'm really not sure it's about this fear of falling thing. A bit I suppose, but more just that fear of exposure. I used to be very scared high up on anything really. Now, I can play the tactics and find rest positions and use the footwork i practice when safe (wall or boulderiing). I actually like the challenge now of putting it all together.

In reply to JonC:

I think that was good advice.

In reply to M. Edwards:

thanks, it's v rare i say anything remotely sensible

but when i think about how it's worked for the good times, that's about it. tactics.

In reply to JonC:

Found personally that over time and with more experience I'm more and more of a wimp. Trad and sport/indoor/tech grade used to be about the same, are completely different now.

In reply to thomasadixon:

lol - there are always exceptions to the rule

In all seriousness, if you don't keep up the trad, the dark side (ie sports) will overwhelm you...

In reply to JonC: Yeah - I started trad before bouldering too. But it's so much easier to get better at bouldering, especially with a bouldering wall down the road for the winter. I think it's much easier to boulder V6 than climb E3, I've a fair amount of effort into trying both!

I think people that don't boulder much probably overestimate how easy it is to apply it to trad. I know loads of people of can boulder the same as me or harder who are terrified of tough HVSs (but aren't we all, really).

In reply to JonC:

Why do you refer the grades to English 5c/6a, when you come climbing to Wales could you please refer the grades to Welsh 5c/6a !

In reply to JonC:

It's indoor bouldering that does it I reckon!

In reply to mr mills:

lol - good point!

though we all know welsh grades are easier than eng;ish equivalents

In reply to JonC:

lol, should come over to the old country more often Jon !!!

In reply to mr mills:

i do, when i want to flatter myself

love it though, my best times and climbing actually

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

Its funny how people evolve. I get more scared bouldering than leading a lot of the time, don't like falling off onto mats from much more than a couple of metres. I just don't do enough of it for it to be familiar though.

And short routes can scare me, the ground is just too close! Give me big steep crags any day.

In reply to JonC:

I suppose I lead about E2 5c/6a (a little hit and miss). Haven't really climbed much uk (any?) 6b on routes. V3/4 is generally straightforward though rarely flashed.

Sport/Top-rope I stand a good chance of flashing F6c/E4 6a.

I Probably have 1 uk tech grade in hand when leading stuff in my style with reasonable gear but it often feels very on-off. Understandably I don't really do sketchy run out stuff.
jk

In reply to JonC:



I think you've started a thread for the sole purpose of pleasuring your own member in public.

If you don't like my reply, don't ask the question in the first place.

In reply to Arthur.B: I think the main reason people don't climb as hard these days as they can on trad is because they no longer start on it, sport, bouldering and climbing walls make you soft about leading gnarly trad.

In reply to Al Evans:
>

I took a friend who leads 6a very confidently indoors onto a long mountain V Diff. Her first outdoor climb ever.

She was sh*tting bricks the whole time and that was just on the easy scrambling between pitches!

In reply to Trangia:

But then as a counter I know someone who used to mainly sport climb and got more into trad when he injured his fingers - big swanage e3s and the like were apparently gentle finger rehab! Has now led e5 as well. If you climb a respectable sport level I don't think, as the internation meet regularly proves, that you will take too long to reach a good trad level if you applyyourself...

In reply to JonC:
No rule of thumb works in my opinion.
It's all about consolidating and experience. Back at home I know this dude that can lead at a push f7a...he bolts f6c multi-pitch routes with the hilti in tow...on the lead (no kidding!!!)
I find that I actually don't perform that much better sport climbing nowadays. I'll be lucky if I get up a 7a onsight (or it'll be soft) but when the head is right (most of the time) get up an E3 or VI,7, provided that I've been climbing some.
Equally, happy to solo to reasonably close of my trad lead grade depending on the routes and landings.
Climbing is all in the head...shame I cannot convince mine it is!!! I really should have onsighted an E4 by now. As John Bracey once told me "lazy Erick"...he hit the nail on the head.

In reply to JonC: I like the idea, but for me the gap is still the same I thnik - finally managed to get on a few soft touch E3s this year, but I am now also comfortable on font7b+

In reply to no feet: Jesus, if I could have managed font7b+ I would have been leading E6!

In reply to JonC:

I'm a bit screwy in this respect, being strong but with a weak head. I used to boulder a lot, and could onsight 6a moves when I was only doing VS trad (although this was on my first few leads). With more experience I pushed my comfortable grade up to HVS and E1. However, I don't get the same opportunities to climb now as I did then, and I haven't pushed myself on trad for a long time. However, with my increased experience I now approach climbs differently - where I used to put off climbing HVS/E1, seeing them as a big challenge, I now view them as something I should be able to get up, and VS as a warm-up/easy day grade. According to your friend (and most other people!) i really ought to be climbing at least E3 fairly easily. Maybe if I got more mileage in, then I would be doing that, as my head is vastly better than it used to be.

Something else too - I have climbed 6a moves onsight on trad, but they have been on E1s, so basically bouldering with a VS on top!

In reply to no feet:

Good god, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to boulder Font 7b+, yet I'll confidently rope up under any E3 before breakfast. Your common-or-garden E3 probably won't have anything harder than Font 6a on it!

In reply to Alun:


Apart from the ground, devoid of a mat

In reply to Blue Straggler: exactly!

In reply to JonC:

I'd agree with that statement.

I climb about E1 5b (ie I can turn up and onsight any E1 5b in theory), but I've pushed my grade and climb E3 6a (onsight which I was pretty happy with) when I can be bothered.

I guess this gap has juts got smaller and smaller as I've got better at climbing, placing gear and got bolder.

In reply to JonC:

You know, I think one has to embrace the trad spirit first. I know a few climbers who really can't motivate themselves indoors or for bouldering, yet time and again seem to climb close to or at their limit on the crag.

In reply to JonC:

I can climb 5c - e2 or e3, it doesn't much matter.
I can climb 6a with a following wind on a good day. E3, but not E4.
The number of 6b moves I have done (with a rope), I can count of the fingers of one hand. I don't seige things. I'll give it couple of goes and either retreat or cheat if I can't do it.

I'm not a boulderer, so don't ask me about V or Font grades - I haven't a clue really, and indoors doesn't count.

It's been that was since I was 19. I would say that I climb at or close to my limit most of the time.

I can climb 6c sport. The number of 6c+ I can count on the fingers of one hand. I don't red point.

In reply to nniff:

I also find VS really hard - a lot harder than E2 usually, which annoys the hell out of me.

In reply to Al Evans:

I don't think that sport/bouldering/walls make you soft about leading knarly trad. Knowing I can onsight a sport route of x grade gives me the confidence to get on a trad route with run out sections of x-1 grade. e.g. recently onsighting 7a sport = happy to get on right wall.

Having said this I started out as a trad climber not in the way you suggest people now start and now climb a mix of trad/sport/bouldering.

Interestingly I find that redpointing on sport gives me no confidence for trad. I end up climbing routes that feel easy once practised a few times and I wonder why I couldn't do them first time. This leads me to believe my route reading is poor and reduces trad confidence.

In reply to JonC:

Don't think it's that simple. Trad fosters a conservative approach in most people. Two whole tech grades to spare is rather a lot.

Sport climbing 'properly' - as opposed to treating sport routes just like trad routes with fixed pro - has really opened my eyes, and my grade sky-rocketed (for me) as a consequence. Adding some sport climbing and especially bouldering into your mix will seriously benefit your trad ability (unless you get hooked on the dark side completely ), and you should be able to squeeze that differential.

In reply to JonC: rubbish: if you follow that mantra how do you ever push your grade?

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

I'm not sure 2 grades is that much really. I guess it depends what you classify as your top grade - I would classify it as something I could just about sketch up, with the grade below being fairly steady in isolation and fresh, but maybe not after climbing some easier moves and getting a little pump on. I think 2 grades in hand could be reasonable.

I agree with you on sport though - climbing properly it is surprising how hard you can push it. However, I know that I am so close to the edge on my top onsight grades that I wouldn't transfer them directly to trad where I have to place gear too.

In reply to French Erick: 7a is considerably ahead of E3 in terms of overall difficulty even allowing for extra effort / thought required for placing gear

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

I'd say it is very much that simple for onsights: 2 tech grades with a rack, sandbag possibilities, route finding issues, often big consequencies for getting the sequence wrong. With wide experience, good form and safe routes I've led at my technical grade on really obvious stuff yet some of the hardest climbing I've done is on severes when in touble. I cant climb 6a any more (used to be able to do so on slabs before my bunions) so I know the 6a problems and moves on routes I do are really 5c.

I recently started leading as hard as I can climb on routes with decent gear and it's a alot of fun. Frst time I actualy got some airtime on a fall.

In reply to JonC: 5b is my physical limit(5c moves just don't happen atm), my hardest on site is HVS 5b. E1 5b is too sustained to lead atm.

In reply to franksnb: should add that my best boulder onsite is a measly V2 and sport 6b+

In reply to Stefan Kruger:


Your profile suggests you may have rather more than that in hand, unless it's not up to date.

I do agree with your conservative approach comment though and I think that's the reason for the two tech grades being a reasonable approach for many people in their early years leading.

I have on-sighted sports routes (particularly slabby ones) absolutely right at my limit. I have found that very valuable to my trad climbing. I'm not sure what's wrong with trying to on-sight sports routes if you are into trad. I found it helps me learn what I can do on-sight, rather than what I *think* I can manage when on trad. It's not exactly the same approach of course (ie. you don't need all the same tactics and you are free to climb). I do train at the wall incidentally so it's not as though I don't effectively do some redpointing, albeit indoors.

Someone commented that this was a bit of a self serving thread. It wasn't supposed to be, genuinely. I am interested in this and I suspect a lot of other people are too. I'm not trying to say there is a right approach to grade differentials, just that what I was once told had pretty much worked for me over a period of time and averaging things out. Yet I am sure some people do have a completely different experience.

In reply to JonC:


Funny thing is, back when I could only just scratch my way up 5b I was doing it on lead. Now I can scratch my way up 6b the 5bs don't feel a right lot easier. I've probably gone the other way, more in hand now than I did in my first few years but it doesn't feel it. I'm still too scared to try Mousetrap in case I find the moves hard!


Onsighting sport is demoralising for me, the grades I get are the same as they were years ago. I find flakey (Yorks/Peak) lime impossible to read and all too easy to fall off. Much more enjoyable to redpoint on it and see a proper improvement linked to fitness.


I'm not sure what he was barking at! Seems a sensible thread to me though any opportunity to post grades/numbers is an opportunity to be called a willy waver

jk

In reply to JonC:

The thing i find is that, during the time it takes to place gear on harder routes, you are burning your muscle out in your hands and fingers while your holding on to the rock so you have less energy when it comes to making moves and burn out quicker, hence making it an harder climb.

Plus, pulling off moves on a top rope or bouldering with a mat and people spotting you, you are pretty secure, but when it comes to pulling off a move when leading, the mind set is completely different.

I lead around VS-HVS 4c-5a but top rope routes upto 6a cleanly onsight.

In reply to JonC:

I'm creaky and weak. I've tried and failed 5c moves on top rope, I just can't do them. I've led E1 5b onsight though. Either I can do it or I can't and if I can, I can do it on lead.

In reply to jkarran:

>I'm still too scared to try Mousetrap in case I find the moves hard!

If you have done XANADU at the chasms it should be OK for you, bit more fragile than hard and a bit run out at times.

In reply to davross1986:

>
The thing i find is that, during the time it takes to place gear on harder routes, you are burning your muscle out in your hands and fingers while your holding on to the rock so you have less energy when it comes to making moves and burn out quicker, hence making it an harder climb.

Have you practiced not gripping too hard, getting into positions where you can rest on steep sections? That is often why you get burnt arms and fingers, gripping too hard.

Try it on routes, once you have the runner in see if that grip can be released, or even take your hands off.

Liken it to driving where you only grip the wheel hard on some corners, having a light touch most of the time.

In reply to sutty:


I seconded Xanadu in one big pitch last year. It's about the most pumped and scared I've been for years even with the toprope*! I'd have given it E3... awkward overhanging shit, dust and blocks the whole way with *massive* groundfall potential from a fair bit of it.

*no helmet

If mousetrap is anything like that I'll be sticking to Yorkshire. Warning heeded

<edit> Oops, I'm thinking Judge Dread... still, HVS!

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Ah, Judge Dread, we thought long and hard about putting a bolt in there at the start of the hard bit as we had no runners till then, After that the runners were fine so we said yes. It was the only bolt placed on a route, though some were used as belays up North on Oak buttress?

In reply to JonC:

If there's good gear and it's not too sustained I can climb much the same onsight

In reply to JonC:

For me the gap was always one technical grade, except when I first started climbing in 1967 and the climbing was so much more dangerous because of bad protection. When I was first leading HVSs I could on-sight 5a pitches, but could climb 5c on SE Sandstone. When (years later) I was climbing at E2 I could lead 5c - just - (or v sustained 5b), but could toprope 6a just.

In reply to teflonpete:

yes, i can think of people who seem to excel on real rock and appear to lead at their limit

In reply to nniff:

If you don't do much bouldering, sport climbing (particularly redpointing) and seconding trad that's harder than what you can lead, you will by default be leading close to your limit. I'm like that. It might limit progress but it's spicier this way.

On a separate point, it's worth bearing in mind that trad grades get quite broad from 6a onwards - as I understand in, there's a much larger differences between 6c and 6a than between 5c and 5a. Hence a 5a leader might have a two grade comfort but a 6a leader might only have a one grade margin but the margin will be the same in terms of relative difficulty.

In reply to JonC: yeah probably about right. I can usually onsight 5b boulder problems and that's usually my lead limit, but sometimes stretch to 5c onsight lead.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:
Knowing I can onsight a sport route of x grade gives me the confidence to get on a trad route with run out sections of x-1 grade. e.g. recently onsighting 7a sport = happy to get on right wall.

Exactly! I obviously know that sport and indoor walls are good for gaining confidence, strength and some technical ability. But my premise remains that you will be a better trad climber if you start outdoors on trad. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule.

In reply to JonC:

It's more of a consequence of having been sucked in -- I only boulder and sport climb nowadays, and have been for the last few years. Must be getting old..

In reply to JonC:


Nothing at all! My experience was that I was plodding around on HVSs and the odd E1 for *years*, starting to believe that I was unable to ever climb harder than UK tech 5c. Taking this approach - only on-sight - to bolted routes saw the inevitable failures of getting up anything harder than perhaps F6b, for a considerably more bland experience.

Learning to actually redpoint was a revelation - and within a few sessions ticking my first seventh grade route was intoxicating - there was nothing bland about this climbing anymore. Even though my motivation for trying sport climbing was mainly to get better at trad, it soon became a goal in itself, and having gone from mild sixes to high sevens in a for me short period of time, compared with my stagnant trad efforts it seems to me that sport climbing is the way forward when it comes to becoming a better climber, full stop. Naturally, you'd need to keep the trad up to maintain your head, too, if trad's your game.

In reply to Stefan Kruger: that's actually inspired me to give some redpointing a go for the first time. I can imagine now how it would help my trad climbing enormously.

In reply to JonC:


Not the case for me - I have got less bold over the last 3 years or so than in the first 2 years or so that I was climbing. I am a more rounded climber now - better all-round technique and strengths on different rock-types - but definitely less bold. Not entirely sure why this is.

As for two tech grades in hand...compared to what, your normal onsight limit, your worked sport limit, worked bouldering limit, etc? Personally I lead trad up to 5b happily and regularly (but rarely so boldly now) and 5c occasionally. I expect to onsight a 5c boulder problem but not necessarily always a 6a one. I can boulder out V5 (tech 6b) and have worked sport to F7a (with tech 6a moves).