UKC

I've just enjoyed reading Cagrar Richs' thread on progress and a few of you said that progress is impossible unless you train 3 times a week.

I know that I did get over a plateau when I went from once to twice a week but much more and I will become terminally fatigued - not to mention I don't have time.

So what do you think - 3 times a week for max progress or can you maximise your training gains by making the most of whatever you can do, or can you suppliment climbing/bouldering with exercises/weights diet sleep/ avoiding toxins etc.

Do you think that age plays a part as well. I believe a younger body recovers from a training session quicker than an older one?

In reply to chris wyatt: I usually boulder anywhere between twice or five times a week, no real well structured training most of the time, i'd probably progress faster with more structured training, but at the moment i'm happy with progress just bouldering.

Obviously sleeping and eating well are important, things which i consistently fail to do :/

In reply to chris wyatt: It is one of my posts Chris is refering to, which I think was more along the lines of 'if you're not climbing enough then don't be surprised if you struggle to progress' rather than the 'you will never progress unless you train X times' that Chris perhaps implies.

If you're happy with your progress through the grades with less training than others need, then count yourself lucky!

I already replied on that thread but I'll include that reply here as well:

As I mentioned above it is an issue of GENERAL guidance about OPTIMUM training volume.

If you are climbing less then the optimum then it will just take you much longer to progress and if you are training more then you risk over-training and injury.

As a general guide the optimum amount of training is as follows:
Beginners (up to perhaps f5+/6a) - 2 times per week
Intermediate (mid/high f6s) - 3 times per week
Advanced (f7s) - 4 times per week
Elite (f8s) - 5 times per week

If you are happy to progress more slowly by climbing less then that is obviously your decision. However if you are struggling to progress and want training advice then you can't get away from the basic physiology of the human body and its response to training through super-compensation on which the above is all based.

As you can see I did emphasis this is just very general advice and individuals will vary. I hope it goes without saying that you can't just progress from hardly doing any exercise to 3 hard session per week overnight.

However I'd be very surprised if someone of average fitness onsighting f6b could not relatively quickly adapt to climbing 3 times per week. Although by relatively quickly I mean spending 1-2 months climbing twice per week.

Additionally when refer to training 3 times per week that is an average and a well planned training cycle builds in recovery and could look like:

Week 1 - Moderate Week - 3 sessions (2 medium, 1 hard)
Week 2 - Hard Week - 3 sessions (2 hard, 1 medium)
Week 3 - Very Hard Week - 4 sessions (3 hard, 1 medium)
Week 4 - Recovery Week - 2 sessions (1 light, 1 medium)
Repeat

Anyway, I think this is useful topic to debate and will be interested in what others think. From a personal point of view it is only when I have been climbing around 4 times per week for at least 4-6 weeks that I achieve appreciable improvements in my own climbing.

In reply to chris wyatt: Cheers Mark.

Anybody else?

In reply to chris wyatt:

5 or 6 days.

Mick

In reply to chris wyatt: usually 6 days.. sometimes 7...

usual pattern..
1st day: Hard boulder session at or near limit...
2nd day: Slightly lower intensity, longer boulder problems..
3rd day: Gym and core training...
4th day: Hard boulder session..
5th day: Specific climbing training.. for me "power" is my current focus.. so pull ups, Bachar ladder, campus etc.. as well as bouldering..
6th day: Gym or rest
7th day: Boulder.. fun.. and core..

Very rarely in order, but thats the kind of thing I do.. as well as a very physical job.. and a bit of cardio thrown in for good measure when i get the time.. or if i am feeling particularly unfit!

I'd train hard every day if I could.. usually the first thing to give out is the skin on my fingers.. hence the gym and core sessions..

Definitely seen progress though, and seems to working for me!

In reply to clare_bear:

lol. Get a vibrator and train your pelvic floor.

In reply to chris wyatt:

I try 2 climbing sessions a week where possible and about 2/3 CV sessions (running/swimming). Ideally I'd like to do more but I don't recover well. I'm currently trying to make sure each session is high quality/max effort.

Have you considered more shorter sessions? How long are your current sessions?

In reply to chris wyatt:

What do you mean by 'train'?

I go climbing probably 3 times a week (actually currently more like 4/5 times) but I don't see it as training, I just like going climbing.


Maybe, but why do you care?
Everyone recovers differently anyway due to lots of factors, you'd be better working out which factors affect you the most and which of them you can change, why worry about age when you can't change it anyway?

Well, I guess you can change it a day at a time but not in a useful direction.

In reply to chris wyatt:

I went from climbing once every other Saturday to once a week and got a lot better. So that's not true...

In reply to clare_bear:


I'm guessing you don't have many onerous responsibilities?!

In reply to kerrera: a bit of a random response.. and frankly pointless..

In reply to Bulls Crack: i'm head of PE.. is that enough responsibility?

In reply to kerrera:
Why don't you save the mods the trouble (and yourself some embarrassment) and delete your post?

In reply to clare_bear:

NB ! Maybe I should nave added a

In reply to chris wyatt: i train 5 days a week and it seems to be working

In reply to Bulls Crack: I'd love no responsibility.. and be able to train as much as I want.. and I guess I get that for half a year.. being a teacher really has so many positives!!

In reply to chris wyatt:

At 47 your recovery cycle will be considerably longer than when you were in your 20s. It takes me 2 days to recover nowadays; until I was forty the recovery period was a day. The other problem you'll probably have at 47 is lot more commitments than a single twentysomething so finding the time may be an issue for you. That said, if you're keen then you can always get yourself a pull up bar and some dumbbells and snatch the odd session when you've got a few minutes to yourself.

If you've got the time then I'd imagine you could train/climb 3 times a week to your limit but it's a matter of listening to your body.

In reply to chris wyatt:

I'm 18, 19 soon. I've been climbing for 2 years and I have reached font 7b+ at my best. But heres the point... For these 2 years I've only climbed once a week, occassionally twice and I've been in and out of using my fingerboard.

In reply to clare_bear:

I am seduced by trains...

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Surely training quality comes into it as well? For example, I see many people messing about, spending many hours at the wall and doing basically nothing in that time. Whereas personally I have only a couple of times spent more than a couple of hours at the wall.

Your generalisation also neglects body mass as well I think, you can be light and unfit and cruise routes, but take ages to recover, that someone who is a bit fat but fit will not be able to do, but because they are fit will recover faster.

Basically what I'm saying is if you're fat, you could train more than you recommend.

And overall I think there are too many variables for any kind of chart like that to apply.

I would instead say, if you want to improve, train more, train harder, but listen to your body and how it's coping, and increase gradually.

In reply to fishy1: I find the guidelines are very useful and apply well to the progress of many climbers I know.

I imagine Neil Gresham probably thinks the same as he came up with them in the first place. You can of course think whatever you like about them.

I severely doubt that body mass comes into it. The higher your BMI the more at risk you will be of injuring your finger tendons through over-training. Therefore if anything the exact opposite to what you suggest might apply.

In reply to Mark Stevenson: Fat oaf and skinny guy. Fat guy is fairly fit, but held back by his weight. Skinny guy is fairly unfit, but his low body weight allows him to climb at same grade as fat oaf.

As skinny guy is unfit, he will take longer to recover. As fat oaf is fit, he will take less time to recover.


"Fit" could also be replaced with the words "good technique".



Basically, what I'm saying is, for two climbers climbing at the same grade, the fat one will have better technique/fitness. And thus can train more.

In reply to fishy1: Is he still an oaf?

In reply to fishy1:
Depends what you mean by 'fit'. CV fit? CV fitness seems to make little difference to anything.

In reply to chris wyatt:

The amount I train is dependent on the time of year. Around now, I'm going for it hell for leather with 4-5 sessions a week plus pull up / core circuits at home etc. I'm trying to make gains in Winter, though admittedly it's not as structured as I'd like it to be for complicated reasons.

Come the spring, more daylight and evening cragging however, that all goes out the window, I only go indoors when its raining. Because I'm mainly a tradder, I tend not to get as trashed outdoors. So the net effect of the the trad season is either maintenance of the status quo or perhaps even a slight loss of strength / fitness. But then I train to climb, I don't train to train.

guess it depends upon what we call "training".

does sex count? no, seriously ...

if we count gym sessions then I "train" about 5 times a week as well but i know that my gym sessions are not very climbing specific and so I'm only doing climbing training a couple of times per week max.

Which, no doubt, is why I am crap and don't improve, much

In reply to chris wyatt:

Assuming the overall aim is to climb better outdoors, the best training you can do is to climb outdoors as much as possible. Indoor training helps with stamina and strength but is of limited use for technique and route reading ability, so you can train indoors four times a week and still make little or no progress outdoors if you don't get enough outdoors mileage done.

I do one indoor session a week if I am climbing outdoors at least once a week, otherwise I usually, but not always, do two indoor sessions a week. This seems to be enough to lead E2. In order to progress, I think the most important thing will be to further improve my technique and route reading ability. What makes me think this is that when I didn't manage to lead routes clean last year, it was almost always due to not seeing the correct / easiest sequence rather than due to not being strong or fit enough to do the moves.

Of course a bit more strength and fitness wouldn't go amiss, so I've been aiming to add an extra indoors session from this month but for various reasons haven't managed it yet - one of the reasons being that I feel I need to do a couple of gym cardio sessions each week and would rather do two cardio sessions and one climbing than vice versa.

In reply to chris wyatt:

I aim to go 5 times a week climbing indoors. Usually bouldering which I am growing to love.

One of these days is in B3's which I count as almost a rest day.

Also play football twice a week.

Crank out a few pullups/do some fingerboard stuff on a doorframe when I feel in the mood, it doesn't happen that often.

I find the biggest problem to be finding the time to go climbing and also finding the time to get the sleep, I notice I need a lot of sleep to recover enough to be climbing at the same level the day after a hard session.

In reply to clare_bear:

I suspect PE has changed considerably since I was at school, but if it hasn't the answer is definately no.

I fitness train five days a week, little of this climbing specific. This allows me to maintain a modest standard.

In reply to chris wyatt:

Due to circumstance (initially injury and laterally family) i have never really properly trained more than twice a week and seem to have progressed ok over the years.

To be honest the next stage for me is to lose a few pounds so that i don't get injured training! I feel that huge gains would be had by getting out more often but again this isn't really practical in the immediate future given a 4 month old baby and living in London.

Slow progress is better than no progress!

In reply to chris wyatt:

At the moment, I'm only climbing once a week or less so having a pull-up bar (and, soon, a fingerboard) means I can maintain strength in the arms and fingers (by hanging off the bar on my fingertips and doing various pull-ups and static hangs in different angles until I feel the same sort of pain that I would get from a 4 hour climbing session). Obviously, I can't work on technique unless I'm at the wall but I can minimise the decline in ability by maintaining my strength (or even improving it). It's not ideal, of course. A bouldering wall in the garage would be very useful but that isn't going to happen.

In reply to darren-surrey:

Due to work and family, I'm climbing once or twice a month if I'm lucky. I also do CV once a week, and fingerboard/strength exercises once or twice a week.

I'm not progressing at the moment, but that's fine with me. I'm maintaining my current level which is the most important thing for now.

Rob

In reply to chris wyatt:

Very interesting replies. Thankyou.

I think the points I'm going to take out of this are :

1) Train to climb better (outside) - which hopefully leads to more enjoyment and possibly lower risks.

2) Get a finger board fixed up in the house and I'm going one one extra hour on core/finger training.

3) I'll also try not to neglect Cardiovascular by running with Mrs W a bit more often ( she's a keen runner).

4) go to bed a bit earlier


I'll try that for a few weeks and see if I can get off the plateau .

cheers everyone

In reply to clare_bear:

Wow - thats quite a training schedule! You must be very committed. Do you not do lead climbing, just boulder? Also do you manage to keep injury free?

In reply to chris wyatt:

I've been climbing since May and really going about once a week. After a month off at Christmas due to social/family/illness the last two weeks I have upped it to three times a week and include bouldering as one of those sessions. I am aiming to climb 6a more consistently and lead them. However don't know if I can keep this three times a week thing up.

In reply to chris wyatt:

Towards the end of last year, I was going 3 times a week but then I had to stop because of a shoulder problem. So am training that in terms of recovery exercise as much as I was climbing and it's starting to heal up and show positive signs so hopefully I'll be back soon. I did see a lot of developments from simply going more often and doing more stuff, nothing particularly structured but a move I couldn't do one week, for example, I just cruised past the next. Shame most of my climbing has been in such fits and starts.

Ditto Jules re Clare's schedule! Very impressive! Good luck on getting to your 8a goal!

In reply to chris wyatt: I don't think that I really train as such. When I'm in ambitious mode I do try to get to the wall at least twice a week and if possible 3 times a week but when I'm there I treat it just like I would a climb outside ie. walk to the bottom and lower off at the top. I don't even redpoint. I'm sure that bouldering and structured training would improve my grade but I'm just not disciplined enough to stick to such a regime and I would not enjoy it even if I did improve several grades. I enjoy the movement of climbing and if I want to climb harder I just climb more.

Al

In reply to clare_bear:

Don't you believe in rest days? (They're just as important as training days, but I'm sure you know that.)

PS: time to spell-check the old personal motto.

In reply to chris wyatt:

Recovery between training sessions is in itself a trainable thing.

To get more training in any given week you vary the training sessions so they work different energy systems and/or muscle groups.

With an intelligent use of variety coupled with a decent diet and enough sleep you could if you had the time and the inclination build up to two sessions a day for 5 or 6 days a week.

I think the age thing isn't that important in recovery except for the very hardcore. I'm doing more training than ever and in my mid 40's.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Good point Simon re variety.

Re the age issue: I've noticed that it takes longer to recover from injury now I'm in my mid 40s, than it did say 15-20 years ago. Moral: don't get injured!

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

I've seen this a few times now. Maybe for progression these training frequencies are necessary, but I reckon you can maintain your level with one session a week. Certainly don't need to be going three times a week to climb in the f6s.

In reply to Max Adamson:

So, if you're climbing as a beginner, but you're going to the wall 5 times a week, is that a recipe for rapid advancement or injury?

In reply to sarah79:

if you're young enough you might adapt, but starting later (25+?) I'd say 5 times a week and you'll be injured sooner or later.

problem with a lot of climbing injuries is you aren't aware of them until the damage is already done. e.g. elbow tendonitis. Repeated micro trauma leading to scarring of the tendon. It doesn't necessarily manifest itself at the time but a lot of this occurs when you're starting out and the tendon is comparatively weak.

In reply to Max Adamson:

I'm 30 ; ( Okay, so I could probably do 2 evenings of training at the wall and then slot in other things, like cycling, yoga, etc, around it to compliment it? I must admit that when I go hell for leather, I do tend to get knocked back by various little pains

In reply to sarah79:

I guess you can differentiate between going to wall to climb for a laugh, and training to climb better. I wouldn't call what I do training, but then I just go to the wall and try to climb a lot.

Actually I did get into training about 2 years after starting climbing, but soon got injured. Too scared to try again.

In reply to The New NickB: Yes.. PE has changed a lot!! And I'm trying to change it even more!

In reply to Fraser: Rest days are an issue all on it's own. I'm used to training most days, and sometimes training feeling tired, but feel that it works for me. I have sessions which are lighter than others, but if i've had a really hard training session and my fingers are sore then I won't go to the wall the next day, I'll head to the gym and train 'core' or do cardio.

PS: did I get 'then' and 'than' right that time?

In reply to jules699:
I don't do much leading.. bouldering is I guess my focus.. preparing to be shot down by many people on UKclimbing for that comment! But mostly injury free.. saying that I've had a dodgy finger for a while now, but it's better then it was, and I did take some time out for it. Getting back to training hard again!

I think it is important to train all disciplines, and think adding some lead climbing to my training will help make gains, will give it a trial for a bit and let you know how it goes!

In reply to sarah79: Thank you.. hopefully soon!

In reply to claire

Good luck with that claire.

Blimey I've already done 4 sessions this week.

Monday pullups
Wednesday routes at wall - working routes
Saturday Sport climbing at a brilliant venue - ie 3 sisters on gower. Did a new route for me and started working something far too hard but I got most of th emoves
Sunday - Quick bouldering session outside.

Now I've got a headache and feel totally knacked - incapable of anything

In reply to chris wyatt:

I train quite a lot but general training-swimming x 3/week, running x 3/wk, climbing once/wk and do core and resistance training(well did) x 2/wk),a case of, when I have time these days. I'd like to have a regular training pattern but shifts, children and other responsibilities have to be accomodated, so my training has to be flexible. It does mean that I have to try to plan my week to fit in rest days.

The one thing I have noticed is that since my climbing sessions dropped to once a week from twice, my climbing ability is pants! I seem to have gone backwards and it's frustrating. So if I were to do anything to improve my climbing it would be to up my climbing sessions.

In reply to clare_bear:

I sort of agree but they're also integrally connected to the climbing training days too. I suppose the comment was more directed at the OP, than yourself. If you feel your system works for you, then you're lucky and have hit the ideal situation.

Much better!

In reply to chris wyatt:
my empirical experience is that i get the biggest improvements when i manage to do a little, very often.

the ideal best would be to train 2 or 3 consecutive days then take a rest day, adjusting the volume and intensity of the sessions so that my body can manage it.

this has actually happened on a few climbing trips (3 climbing days 1 off, 5 or 6 pitches a day. " days on 1 off for bouldering and very fingery spots) and on a few months when i replaced the twice-a-week climbing gym session with a quick evening session at the nearest crag, whenever my fingers weren't sore from the previous day and i actually managed to find someone there to belay me or fix a line for me (i would self belay then).

The problem, is that it is very difficult to dose indoor sessions so that you can manage 2 or even 3 in a row without getting injuried, and i suspect that outdoor sessions are much more effective on the technical side.

the levels at which i experimented the above range between 6bOS/7aRP and 7aOS/7c+RP/7b bouldering. I can't say if it still works in the 8's!!!

another thing that i have reason to believe is that the higher the established level you have, the bigger volume and intensity you need to get past it.
And in reverse, the lower your establlished level, the lower volume/intensity you can afford without injuries.
twice a week and one weekend day can take you from 6 territory to the 7's quite fast, but won't make your first 8a unless you are very "naturally" talented.
2-3 times a week plus saturday AND sunday outdoors will probably get you in the 8a zone but might result in an injury if you are still in the 6's.
WC climbers train as much as 6 days a week, morning and afternoon sessions, try that being an average 8a redpointer and you'll break something.

etc...

In reply to ghisino:

ps age of the experiment, 22 to 27

In reply to chris wyatt: Before Christmas I was going 2 or 3, occasionally 4 times a week and mixing up routes and bouldering. Then I hurt some fingers so I switched to routes for the last 6 weeks but I'm ready to start bouldering again now. Also though it's winter climbing season now and I've been out the last 6 weekends so I can only manage to train once a week after that, I'm just going to maintain until March and try and improve the winter climbing lots in that time. Then I'm planning 4 weeks focus on bouldering folloed by a more mixed selection of bouldering and routes to get ready for good onsights come May

In reply to clare_bear:

How do you train endurance via bouldering without getting bored?

In reply to jules699:
By endurance i mean power endurance and general time on a boulder problem.

I do weighted circuits on an overhanging wall, with a target of x number of moves, or with no weight hovering my hand above a hold for 4/5 seconds before holding it, I find it helps with developing deep locking type moves... other then that, climb with a friend, you get on the wall, and your friend tells you where to go, so left hand blue crimp.. right hand orange sloper (or whatever you have on your wall!!) feet go anywhere, which is also good because you have to really think about your footwork, if your partner is giving you really hideous holds to use!!!

In reply to chris wyatt:

I climb nearly every day. I just piss about usually repeating routes I have done loads of times before. I don't suppose this really counts as training.

In reply to ghisino:


I know a fair few climbers who have trained 2-3 times a week and climbed one day in the weekend and climbed in the 8a-8b region. It's not that unusual and none of them (myself included) would claim to be that talented.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: and none of them (myself included) would claim to be that talented.

Name me a Brit that does - even Moffat didn't

In reply to chris wyatt: i say train as much as you can, basically do what you can when you can, im a student and been climbing a year and a half, i boulder at v6 and have climbed trad 6b tech grade i train as often as possible, but unless focusing on specific gain i think the best way to train is to get out and climb, and climb a diversity of problems and routes, with differing technique, dont get narrowed into one kind of technique. If there is one you style of climbing you prefer then trying other climbs will still help you see gains in your desired style. But however much you train make sure you drink loads of water andlook after your hands and feet, hope this helps, mucho love.

In reply to Simon Lee: Did't Moffatt claim he was the best though?

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:


On almost every page of "his" book.
You could probably argue that it is not quite the same as being talented..

In reply to andy farnell:

In the context of your post I thought you meant 'natural' (genetic) talent as opposed to trained to become good or a god in JM's case