UKC

Hey Climbers,

I am new to sport climbing after bouldering for more than 10 years. Today i went out for my 4th lead climbing session and 2nd with a climbing partner I met online. My first 2 sessions were with an instructor.

The guy I went with has more than 10 years experience so I thought that it would be a good fit with me being less experienced. But today somethings happened that made me question how safe we were being. As I am still unexperienced, I don't know how much I can read into these events so I would like to get some feedback from the community...

Top Rope Switching

I was at the top of a route having completed it on a top rope. My partner said that he would like me to set up a top rope on the route to the left, the anchor for that was only 3 meters away. I asked how I could do that as I don't have any quick draws. He said that I can attach my lanyard, remove the quick draws from the anchor and reach over and attach them to the other anchor. This seemed dangerous as I would only be attached on 1 point with my lanyard until I moved the anchor. I shouted that it didn't seem right and he said it was fine to do it. I said I was unhappy with that approach and I wont do it.

Instead I told him to lower me so I could retrieve the last 2 quick draws on the route. I climbed back up. Climbed across to the new anchor added the quick draws and clipped the rope. The rope now being in 2 anchors. I then climbed back to the original anchor, attached the lanyard so I could unclip the rope and retrieved the quick draws. Finally I removed my lanyard, climbed back to the second anchor and lowered.

What should I make of his suggestion?

What do you make of my practice?

Does it make sense to discuss rope work when on the top of a route? Or should that always be done before setting off?

Partner Check

This happened both times we have climbed together. I threaded my grigri incorrectly. We did a partner check and he said it's fine and moved to start climbing. I like to check myself during the partner check and even a second time afterwards. Both times I found my mistake.

Obviously I threaded the grigri incorrectly but both times he missed it, which makes me think he is not really checking. Which makes me worried about my own safety.

Some times he forgets to do the check and I have to remind him.


Talking During Belaying

When I was leading he started to talk to some climbers who were walking past. I wouldn't mind a "hello, how are you"? But it seemed that he was very interested in starting a conversation. So i stopped climbing mid route to look down and I saw that he wasn't looking at me. I felt like saying "hey, pay attention to me" but I was in a secure position and I felt ok in waiting.

Is this common to do during a belay?


Forgotten Helmet

On one climb he realised he had forgotten his helmet half way up, shortly after his phone felt out of his pocket.

Screaming "Wow"

I was on a route and he screamed "wow" pretty loud, I was startled as I thought something was wrong. But he was just remarking that the sun had come out. It seemed inappropriate as I am kind of on edge during a lead and it felt like it could have caused me to make a mistake.


Summary

So it seems like today there were a lot of minor mistakes but we were never really close to any major incident. I felt like I was being the one over seeing our safety yet I am the inexperienced one. I start to question if that many minor mistakes is something to worry about. it's difficult for me to judge how safe or unsafe we have been.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

It sounds like you were reasonably sensible with the thing about switching top ropes, I generally wouldn't discuss details of rope work beyond "clip the other rope", or "extend that a bit more" with an inexperienced person on the other end of the rope.

Doesn't sound like he is taking the partner checks very seriously, some do and some don't, admittedly my use of them varies between partners.

Forgotten helmet is not necessarily a big deal if he is Climbing very comfortably in his ability and the rock is solid.

It's perfectly ok to go Climbing with someone and decide you don't want to be on the other end of a rope with them without addressing some issues (I have come across a couple like this and don't climb with them anymore).

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

On my phone so brief.

Belay swapping, your approach sounds ok, his could be but, or not, I don't quite follow the description and I never used a 'lanyard' so not quite sure what you mean by it. Messing about with non standard ropework at height brings risk, don't do it if you're not totally happy, think, and keep thinking. I've fallen doing this sort of thing, divided responsibilities, distraction... Risky.

Partner check, he's either humouring you or complacent. I never really bothered with it as an idea but if you want it done, gey it done right. 

Talking. Time and a place, if i was out for a relaxed evening cragging or was taking hours in a safe place, no big deal, it's a social activity. If I were stressed or at risk, I'd want 100% attention.

Helmet. We all forget stuff and drop stuff. 

Wow. Probably over reacting. Both of you.

Summary. Try other partners, if you want bigger adventures you need the right mates. He could be one, he could not, you need to work it out.

Jk

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Don't over think this. If your story is accurate the guy should be avoided. Partner checks are serious and if he won't do those properly he's a liability. What you did at the top of the route is what I'd do - his suggestion was unsafe. The bottom line is that you are clearly concerned and unsettled by his behaviour so avoid him. Don't climb with him because you don't want to offend him. Find better partners.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Some years back I was climbing with a less experienced partner who had attention issues in the sense that he couldn't focus enough on belaying. There's nothing worse than climbing a route and looking down to see if he was giving 100% so I ditched him.

I have a few personal rules when leading. No phones, I personally don't like to see a ground belayer sitting down, checks or we don't climb and someone who is watching what's going on. My life happens to be very important to me and if I have to lose the odd partner then so be it. If you're not happy it might be an idea to part company in friendly terms.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

It sounds like you have lost confidence in your partner over a range of issues. I don't think most of them are that major but I get the impression you would like someone more reassuring across the board, and when your life is in their hands I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to want. Maybe reduce the intensity of your climbing with this person and branch out a bit.

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Once after a weekend away someone sent me their pictures, among which was my belayer laying on a rock posing for photos. Sure it was an easy route but I'll never climb with them again. 

I’d say if you’re not comfortable with something don’t do it. It’s not something I would be happy doing even if others consider it to be safe. It just brings in an opportunity for something to go wrong if you make a mistake clipping the lanyard.

Seems OK although I’d probably not have done it for any of my partners when I was less experienced. They would probably have lowered me then sorted it out how they wanted.

It is going to be more difficult to communicate from the top to the bottom of the climb, and could lead to a misunderstanding and a mistake. I’d generally avoid it.

I always considered the partner check to be important. Occasionally when starting to climb with someone less experienced I’d deliberately do something wrong to make sure they were checking properly. It’s only by doing the checks well that we spot the mistake that is made accidentally.

I’d say it is common. I have no problem with a quick hello, but I like my belayer to be attentive. I’d often whistle to them if they weren’t been attentive, even if it may seem a little rude.

East to forget something, but I’d hope the buddy check would pick up on it assuming it wasn’t a deliberate choice  

I don’t think I’d really have an issue with this but may ask him to be quiet if I’m nervous. When nervous I probably wouldn’t phrase it that well either.

Basically if you’re not comfortable with someone don‘t climb with them.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

After loading the rope into your Gri Gri you can do a "functional check" by pulling smartly upwards on the live strand (the climber's strand, not the brake rope). The cam should engage and stop the rope. You can also check the screwgate by squeezing across gate and back-bar. These two checks can be shown to your partner as part of the buddy-check.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

An experienced climber should never make an experienced climber feel unsafe with basic safety. Teaching back-ups and redundancy is part to the process of learning to climb sensibly. 

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

I don't see a problem with their suggestion.

Clip into the second anchor, run the rope through the lanyard clip and move the quickdraws over one at a time.  Bit of a faff but perfectly safe and might need to remove the crab from you lanyard to be able to reach the first anchor, but that's fine.

Although I personally would trust a lanyard as a single point of failure just like I do my harness, or anchor ring etc. But always backing it up is rarely a bad thing.

Does your partner use a grigri? If someone asked me to check their grigri I wouldn't have a clue if it's correct or not. But I would tell you I don't know how to use one.

As long as you're not desperately struggling this is fine with me.

Wouldn't bother me. 

Wouldn't care 

You've not said anything specific that would concern me, however he may still be unsafe. I used to climb with someone who would never stop and think before acting. So go with your gut.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

I'm sure the guy is a good climbing partner for someone and probably ok safety...

But he/she doesn't sound like the right climbing partner for you!

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

All of those examples sound like the sort of things that many people do, quite safely, while out climbing. People have their own awareness and sensitivities regarding to what extent the 'rules' can safely be relaxed or adapted in response to novel or unexpected events, and the more experienced a climber is, the more likely it is that they'll be comfortable doing so.

As a novice climber, it's part of the learning experience to be exposed to these kind of exceptions and to learn to judge when they may be simply non-standard and when actually dangerous.

As an an experienced climber, it's his responsibility to make sure an inexperienced climber feels comfortable with doing things that aren't 'by the book', and to be ready to adapt if it seems they are notably uncomfortable doing so.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

 I shouted that it didn't seem right and he said it was fine to do it. 

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Bottom line is, if you don’t feel comfortable climbing with them then don’t. 
But I wouldn’t be surprised if you find out that most belayers will have one or many failings when compared with the idealistic view. Some things you think may be a problem, can be overcome through extensive experience. 
For example.. belaying whilst not looking/chatting. Yes, it’s not ideal. But equally it’s sometimes unavoidable. It’s not a rare occurrence (more so on trad I suspect) to be belaying blind anyway. Climber goes around a corner, over an overhang, on to an easier upper slab etc when belaying is solely done by feeling the rope, has it gone slack? Has it gone tight? - or worse case scenario a panicked shout from the climber to prepare for a catch. 
Another example being buddy checks. I’ve never officially done them with any climber I’ve climbed with, but will maybe have a sly cursory glance before I set off to make sure everything looks ok. 
This is the problem with being instructed. It teaches you the very compacted and limited version of ‘right’ or ‘safe’ way to do certain things, but doesn’t take in to account what years of experience can teach you, and what is safe even if not best practice. 
Just to repeat as I said above, there’s no definitive right or wrong as such (outside of the completely down right dangerous, obviously) but if you don’t feel comfortable then it’s best to follow your gut instinct and find a new partner

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Much like driving, everyone has their own level of risk that they are comfortable with, and the longer it's been since you were last formally taught, the more likely you are to develop your own habits that don't meet current best practice (with varying degrees of risk). Additionally, best practice changes over time, so a more experienced climber may have been taught different processes to what you were taught.

Regarding the switcing topropes thing - if you're unhappy doing something at height, don't do it. As simple as that. It doesn't matter if the process is technically ok or not. 

Regarding everything else, your partner's behaviour sounds fairly normal for someone who's been climbing for a while, but if you prefer to climb with someone who does things more by the book that's fine - it's your decision. 

Climbing requires trust. If you don't feel comfortable with a partner, it's not going to work. In that case, you have two choices. One is to simply decide not to climb with them again, and it's fine to make that decision. The other is to have a discussion with them about the things that made you uncomfortable. For me, the choice depends on exactly what it was that made me unsafe and where that sit in my own comfort. For example, I might say to someone that "I haven't climbed in a while, do you mind doing a formal buddy check so I can be sure I haven't missed something" - but if I consistently feel that someone isn't paying attention while belaying, it's a hard no.

In reply to john arran:

Exactly this.

To the OP - All of the things are perfectly normal things that can happen when you’re sport climbing outside. Barely a day goes by when you don’t do something that isn’t exactly “by the book” - swinging over to set up a top rope on another anchor, cleaning the route next door for some other people, changing the plan of what you’re doing after you’ve got to the top of a route, forgetting your helmet (I’ve forgotten my draws before!), dropping your phone etc… I’ve done them all many times!

As you get more experience you’ll be able to relax and understand which things are a bit off piste, but fine, and what isn’t safe. For the time being just don’t do anything you’re not comfortable with, and stick to what you know is safe.

The only thing I would be concerned about is your partners lassaiz faire partner check. But that’s not uncommon with experienced climbers, just ask Lyn Hill!  

If you do continue to climb with your partner maybe explain that you’re a bit nervous about some of the things that go on, but I don’t think it sounds like they’re fundamentally not a good person to climb with to me.

In reply to john arran:

Here is the crux of the issue for me as you refer to bending the "rules", Its one thing to take a calculated risk personally such as hoping that one bolt your lanyard is clipped to is ok and not in a loose block or placed correctly but its another thing entirely to put someone else in that position without them fully understanding the implications. Over the years I've climbed and worked with folks who simply weren't looking out for the person at the other end of the rope. After a few personal near misses and watching two people hit the ground in separate incidents both caused by unobservant and reckless partners I'm very careful who I tie on a rope with.

In reply to muppetfilter:

You're selectively quoting John's post. After talking about bending "the rules", he states:

I couldn't agree more. In this case, the OP's partner clearly judged that his actions were safe. The OP wasn't happy with that, which is fine - they can find someone else to climb with.

In reply to kathrync:

The driving analogy is a good one.

For me "unsafe" doesn't necessarily correlate with risky methods, if that makes sense. I have one climbing partner who does things which are ostensibly very dangerous: massive run outs when they feel comfortable despite good placement options, forgetting to bring their harness and climbing in a 'sling nappy' harness made out of 120cm sling, using their climbing rope to tow a car etc. Objectively fairly sketchy behaviour but they have a really good insight into the risk they are taking and are very aware (and seem to enjoy) skating round the margins of safety. 

I climbed with another guy who was much more standard in his approach, and I find it hard to describe, but just felt he had really poor situational awareness. He didn't do anything particularly dangerous but didnt seem to be aware of what was risky and what wasn't. He did end up dying. I'd guess the OP's buddy is more of the former, but ultimately trust your gut. If you feel really uncomfortable, there might be a reason for that.

In reply to muppetfilter:

"Bending the rules" is a loaded term. with implications of doing things differently to gain advantage compared to doing things 'properly', often for personal gain.

I didn't use that term, for precisely those reasons. I actually said that "the 'rules' can safely be relaxed or adapted", which you might argue could mean something similar, but I'd suggest without the negative implication of the term you inroduced. Adapting safety behaviour to fit a specific situation is a very different thing to not fully complying with safety norms.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

You sound too nervous to enjoy climbing with them (and possibly vice versa), so stop. Not much for either of you to gain if one of you isn't happy.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing so don't take it that way, but you do seem at the OCD / hyper-nervous end of the scale, so maybe try and make allowances when trying out climbing partners.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Intersting Sam hasn'f come back around and replieddm. I do sometimes wonder about newish posters, with odd, well structured posts asking things like this.

Is it a bot, scraping for info? 

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Well you had two sessions with an instructor but then still managed to twice thread your gri gri incorrectly, thus putting your partner at considerable risk! There's a diagram on the device clearly showing how to do it. Of course he should have discovered this through checking, but there's no substitute for personal responsibility on all sides.

In reply to Pedro50: I've found experienced partners with misthreaded Gri-gri's twice, once when I was on the ground, and the first when I was about 6 bolts in.....  the latter incident was when I decided to get a lot better at buddy checks.  

I'm sympathetic to the OP - I've climbed with someone who (was again experienced) was technically correct, but gave absolutely no confidence to climb with - short roping, slow to take, loops of slack at other times, and generally not paying attention... either you don't climb with them again, or you have a 'robust' conversation, or accept you may as well be soloing.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

I wondered that too - seems oddly overly well structured and phrased… perhaps just getting cynical.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

If this was only post, probably... but there's also a post looking for a lift from Warrington to N Wales for climbing and the OP seems genuine to me?

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

That might have something to do with the 29-and-counting downvotes.  I could imagine that would feel pretty dispiriting and unwelcoming!

(Godwin's Law rewritten for UKC: as a discussion thread grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a̶ c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶r̶i̶s̶o̶n̶ t̶o̶ N̶a̶z̶i̶s̶ o̶r̶ A̶d̶o̶l̶f̶ H̶i̶t̶l̶e̶r̶  somebody bringing up downvotes approaches 1...)

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Met on the internet. Take on serious life on the line risk.

Would you lend them your car for the weekend ? You would not even be in it. 

In reply to barry donovan:

That’s climbing. I’ve been belayed by someone whom I met by chance on the approach to a crag before.

Had known him for 5 minutes, didn’t know his name. Wouldn’t have lent him my car, happy to be belayed by him.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Climbing, for me, is as much about who I am with as the climbing. Find someone you both trust, and enjoy climbing with.

However safe or not this person is, it doesn't sound like you confident in their belaying and are not enjoying it so try and find other climbing partners.

In reply to Iamgregp: That was lucky wasn't it. Wonder what you'd think if youre wobbling around and see him sat on the ground with a loop of slack out.  

There's absolutely no judgement in what you did then, just luck that he was good enough for you to trust him.

In reply to wbo2:

More sound judgement than good luck. Could tell he knew what he was doing as soon as I met him.  

Wouldn’t have been belayed by him if I had any doubts about him.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

I have been a little slow to reply... sorry about that but I can assure you that I am not a bot (even with my overly structured sentences).

Thanks for the replies, it's interesting to read over them and I think I gained a few insights...

The main one being that I am putting too much importance on some of the points. Which was really what I was looking for.

It feels a little strange to me that the community accepts that rules can be "relaxed" or "adapted" and these minor issues are mostly tolerated. I guess that is because I would expect everybody to be extremely rigorous when our lives are on the line.

At the same time it's completely understandable as we don't have any governing bodies providing strict guidelines. In the end we are responsible for our own safety. It's just difficult to ensure my own safety when I am inexperienced.


With regards to my partner... I think I will talk to him about a couple of things but I expect I will climb with him again. The post might have sounded like I had lost confidence and perhaps I have a little, but I was mostly trying to get a perspective by posting the details of the outing.


Also I am surprised with the amount of down votes I received. I am simply trying to keep myself safe. 

beep beep boop boop

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Ignore the downvotes. People give them too much weight, when in fact it's often clicked for all sorts of reasons. I'll probably get some on this post but I've turned the buttons off so I'll be non the wiser

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

When teaching novices it's important to communicate a way of working that's not just extremely safe but also easy to remember and not confusing. It may not be the most efficient way of achieving a task but it will be bombproof safe and get the job done with minimal chance of error. A good example is the almost universal teaching of fig-8 knots to tie in: many experienced climbers prefer other knots, for a variety of reasons, but it's far better to make sure novices aren't confused by choice when there's one very easy to tie (and to check!) knot that does the job very well.

Situations such as moving a top-rope from one route to another are non-standard tasks, so are not usually taught explicitly, but the general ideas from taught practices are still useful, such as making sure you have an attachment you're happy with to one anchor before releasing from the last one. It's this kind of adaptation that experienced climbers will be doing as a matter of course, based on a good awareness of the principles of safe ropework rather than the explicitly taught detailed practices. But novices should be prepared to do things strictly by the taught book if they don't feel they have a sufficient awareness of the principles involved and would be better sticking to the practiced methods they have been taught.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

I feel that it's important to make your partner feel safe. This might be around the level of risk that they are prepared to take in comparison to yours, or how much distraction they can deal with, how often they wear a helmet etc. I don't like this idea of 'rules' because climbing for me is a time when I decide for myself what is safe and what is not. But generally the best climbing partner for you is one that makes you feel safe whether you are both following 'rules' or not.

So for some partners I might take more precautions, not because I feel they are necessary but because I know my partner will feel more comfortable with them. e.g. using prussiks for abseiling, belays being built around a tree or boulder, etc. It takes time to know what your partner is comfortable with.

If a partner is not prepared to make you feel safe, then it is not going to work in the long term.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Forgive me for mentioning this but your problem may be to do with the fact that it's only after ten years of bouldering that you're progressing into roped climbing, albeit sport climbing, which is actually safer than bouldering. Those years may have created in your mind a perception of complexity and peril, as well as the novel prospect of placing your life in someone else's hands. In some ways you're actually in a worse position than a complete novice. I can see why you'd want to stick strictly by the book and are taken aback when an experienced partner doesn't. You're not the first person I've come across like that. There are no rules in climbing. There are "ethics" governing what constitutes a valid ascent, and there is "Best Practise" when it comes to protecting yourself. However this last is often just an entrenched orthodoxy. 

I'm surprised that you appear to have been taught the Grigri as the default belay device. I do own one but keep it for certain specialised jobs. A normal tube device is more versatile and will teach you far more about rope work.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

I take partner checks seriously. In The Hard is Easy videos - for outdoor climbing at least - they are referred to as system checks.

https://youtu.be/w5ybJwZPZAQ?si=XGANrxaRpV7XRKGo

https://youtu.be/aHI8kIXNH5M?si=-E9EsUVzcwA5GgpX

IMHO, it is not common to do during a belay and his focus should be on you and you only.

IMO, I think this behaviour is inappropriate 

Tbh, I think you should climb with different partners.

In reply to galpinos:

Too right 

In reply to Andy Long:

When I did my toproping course the group was taught how to belay using a standard tube device using the V2theKNEE123 method when I belay for indoor  toproping and the climber is climbing a route above F5+ I use my GriGri but when I have lead  I used my BD ATC. 

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Threading the grigri the wrong way round is really worrying. It's good to have a partner check but you really shouldn't be getting that wrong. If your partner falls and the rope is thread wrongly into the grigri your partner is facing a likely groundfall. This is really basic stuff. There's a clear indication for which side is for the rope going up to the climber and which side is for the rope you're handling.

If I did a partner check and the grigri was threaded incorrectly that would really spook me out. I'm not having a go at you, just please check when you're down the wall with one of the staff you've got that 100% right.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Don't forget that it's meant to be fun.

In reply to jamesg85:

Too right. Yup.

It would really spook me out too.

In reply to Andy Long:

I didn't learn in the UK and from my (limited) experience, it seems that grigri is much more common on the continent. In fact auto locking belays are a requirement for all gyms here in Germany. I was surprised to see that it isn't the case in the UK

I do have a question around this. Isn't it more dangerous? In the case that something happens that is outside of your control and makes you unable to belay, is the climber expected to free solo spontaneously? I mean in the case of a rock hitting you, slipping, a dog biting you etc. Or am I missing something?

In reply to Andy Long:

You are almost right...

I tried top roping when I started bouldering but I was way too scared. I couldn't get over the idea that a small mistake could lead to my death. I have always been aware that the risks of death are small but I didn't want to accept those risks when I could get so much enjoyment from bouldering. Over the past year it felt like I could enjoy lead climbing more and I also seem to be happier to accept those risks. But I guess that worry is still there in the back of my mind and I am trying to understand it more with this post.

With regards to sport climbing being safer than sport climbing... I guess it depends how you look at it. It might be safer in terms of less injuries but I imagine there are more deaths sports climbing. I am more concerned about death. 

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Yes, if your belayer becomes incapacitated then it is dangerous.  You would have to find a way to secure yourself, and then either get yourself down unassisted or call for rescue. However more important than the belay device in that situation is making sure you don't fall. Would you really want to rely on an unattended grigri locking correctly? If you don't fall, the type of belay device doesn't matter.

You have to keep things in perspective.  These situations happen only very rarely, and some could be mitigated by better planning. If rockfall is a danger, wear a helmet and position yourself out of the way. If you might slip, find somewhere else to stand. If a dog bites you or a wasp stings you, you should carry on belaying.

This is a dangerous sport, although not as dangerous as many assume. From your other post about your fear of death you don't seem to be very good at putting risk into perspective, but if you're going to climb, or even boulder, then you have to accept some risk - just as with anything else in life. To be able to get yourself out of unexpected trouble you have to understand the principles rather than follow rules or rote procedures.

There are historical reasons why the grigri isn't so much used in the UK, largely to do with our preference for climbing with double ropes. Autolocking devices may be inherently safer but they are also more easily misused, which cancels that out. The belayer is more important than the device they are using, and a grigri won't make a poor belayer safe.

Your belayer doesn't sound unsafe, although some of their practices could be criticised.  However confidence in your belayer is essential, if you don't have that then you should find someone else.

In reply to Howard J:

Thanks for the well constructed response. 

I do want to rely on that over an unattended non locking device. Of course I would prefer not to fall on either 

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

I'm equivocal about the TR switching. If you weren't comfortable doing it, why did you decide to do it?

I don't think you can criticise him for missing something on doing a buddy check that you had not noticed that you had done wrong. It is your responsibility to ensure you use kit correctly.

Talking at belay would not bother me as long as belaying is happening safely.

Shouting wow..... some people are exuberant, no big deal.

Forgetting helmet is not ideal but turning it on its head, where was the buddy check by which you place some responsibility for kit use onto the other person?

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I didn't do what he suggested. I did it in a way that I was comfortable with.

I think the point of the buddy check is to find mistakes made by your buddy.


I have never considered it to be part of a buddy check. Is this something you practice? I will in future

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

What's the point then? I always assumed it was to 'catch' your partner if you, or they do make a mistake.  IF you do it, do it right.

I'm not surprised that someone learnt with a grigri, especially they're basically learning by going sport climbing with their mates. It's the normal tool to use in that enviroment

In reply to wbo2:

Agreed, if the OP has started learning to belay people on lead using a gri gri then I wouldn’t advocate abandoning it in favour of an atc, seems a retrograde step to me.

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

It's your call, choose how you want to proceed! 

There is though a contradiction between your angst with him missing something about how you use kit and you missing something about how he does or does not use kit. How you wish to resolve that is up to you, your experience and your comfort zone.

In reply to wbo2:

It's not his buddy's fault that he applied the Grigri incorrectly, and he didn't notice his buddy was not wearing a helmet before stepping off. It's tough to say his buddy should have noticed something in a buddy check for failing to pick up errors when the reverse isn't happening either.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: So they shouldn't bother then? 

Personally I'd give them both a kick up the butt as encouragement to do a bit better with buddy checks.  People make mistakes, landing on the ground is a big one.  For the OP, if he gets confident buddy checks are being done properly, that's one less thing to worry about

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

You clearly learnt nothing in Germany either, auto-locking belay devices are NOT a requirement in German climbing gyms. Any recognised belay technique is allowed so long you can show you have mastered it.

In reply to wbo2:

Who said that? 

They both failed to do buddy checks properly. There's no point "doing a buddy check" in a cursory non-systematic way that does not detect the errors. 
 

Equally, if someone e.g. incorrectly ties their rethreaded figure of 8 and it is not detected in buddy check, it is not the buddy who is responsible. Personal responsibility is a rare commodity these days, people all too often veer to wanting to find someone else to shift blame onto for their own error. 

In reply to jimtitt:

...you seem a little angry

I didn't learn in Germany but it is in fact a requirement in the gyms I have been in. 

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

You must go to some pretty obscure gyms, the DAV. IG Klettern and KLEVER (the independent gym association) only require a generally recognised belay method.

In reply to jimtitt:

The DAV recommends using an auto blocking belay device. I climb in gyms in Berlin.
 

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

Recommend and require both start with r but the words have different meanings.

In reply to jimtitt:

Why are you so rude Jim? Are you angry with me for some reason? Or are you just angry with the world?

In reply to SamClimbsSometimes:

I don't think any of these necessarily indicate an unsafe partner.

Top Rope Switching

It's worth noting that when sport climbing you are very often only attached by one point, often to a far greater than most people realise, ie. not just above the first bolt. 

Partner Check

This is a relatively new thing in climbing and whilst its a good idea many people don't do this at all.

Talking during belaying

This is pretty common and it depends on how its done. Also some climbers who wish to onsight a route that their partner is climbing first might deliberately not look up so they don't learn anything about the route and preserve their potential onsight. However that doesn't mean they're not focused on belaying. I think talking AND looking away for more than a few seconds is not great since they're clearly not focused on the climber at the point. So although it's common I don't think it's a good idea.

Forgotten Helmet

Probably not a big deal. Many climbers don't use helmets at all or just use them occasionally in specific circumstances.

Screaming "Wow"

Sounds a little odd and not really appropriate. Climbing requires full focused attention so not ideal but not necessarily unsafe either.

Very hard to judge from your description whether the person is really unsafe or not. It's also worth noting that some climbers never fall or hold falls so can lack experience even if they've been climbing for many years. Taking some fall practice with your partner might be a good idea, starting with really short falls.

Ideally it would be better as you gain experience to climb with other partners and see which of those you prefer and feel safest with.

Regardless of the actual safety of a belayer if you feel that someone is safe, watching you and competent you're gonna have a much better time climbing.