UKC

Is Jerry Moffatt’s Mastermind worth getting?  Has anyone learned anything from it that has helped them with their climbing?  Is it motivating?

Having a quick flick through yesterday, my first impression is that there’s not much to it.

In reply to afx22:

Maybe that's the big secret!

In reply to afx22:

As one of the few world class climbers the UK has produced (even the Americans know who Ben and Jerry are), it’s going to be interesting to see what his methods and motivations were. FWIW, I’ve, but really found it useful to work through numerous times and keep it with my (punter) training and climbing journal for reference.

It could probably have been condensed into one line, Jerry believed in himself and believed that he was the best climber in the world, then went out and proved it. Simple.

In reply to afx22:

I found it quite gimmicky and more style than substance. As Paul says, Jerry's advice largely boils to down to iron-clad self belief and relentlessly seeking out the positives  in any situation. It does, however, also have input from a lot of other very successful climbers which you may find useful/inspirational. It's also fair to point out that I got it after reading Arno Ilgner's Espresso Lessons (the pared-down, lower-bs version of The Rock Warrior's Way) so it may be that a lot of Jerry's book was repeating what I already knew and that is colouring my judgement too. Perhaps if I had read them in a different order my  verdict may have been different. Flicking through both  I see that Espresso Lessons has lots of passages marked with  highlighter, Jerry's has far fewer. If I was only getting one it would be Espresso Lessons but if you have the cash to spare Jerry's has some useful stuff

In reply to afx22:

As a general rule, aping what the successful do as a means to emulating their success, is a terrible idea. Confirmation bias/cherry picking, call it what you will.

 

If most top climbers do 'X', you cannot infer causality as you've only looked at one side of the coin. You need to also look at all those people who did 'X' but didn't improve/got injured etc... There will also be top climbers who don't do 'X' and still do well.

 

I'm can't comment on Moffatt's book, but every time i hear of Branson's "top rules for entrepreneurial success" i can't help thinking that it is what he OMITS from his list that is most important; being born in to wealth and serendipitously signing Mike Oldfield/releasing Tubular Bells, are two pivotal events that m/any aspiring entrepreneur is destined never to repeat no matter how closely they adhere to Beardy's rules.

In reply to afx22:

Regarding motivation, for me it works the other way around. If you're motivated you'll tend to get more out of these sort of books. I have "9 out of 10 Climbers", "Rock Warriors Way" and this, and have a read all of them periodically. There's good stuff in all three but I think you have to be motivated already, and motivation usually comes from having goals.

In reply to afx22:

I actually quite like it. I was brought up to never ‘deface’ a book and a major part of this one is making notes plans etc in it which goes against the grain with me somewhat! Like most motivational books a lot of what is said is either common sense that we all know or a lot of repetition. I like the layout, quotes and anecdotes too.

I think I would ‘recommend it to a friend’ as it is the first climbing book to ever encourage me to really think about my goals and how to plan to achieve them.

In reply to Shani:

I get what you mean, but when I look at people like Tim Henman compared to other tennis players who did win Wimbledon, he seemed to lack the real fire needed to 'try f*cking hard' as Jerry wrote about climbing in is biography. There's probably things which some top climbers didn't do and still became notable, due to having exceptional talent, but I think it remains that if you compare the personality traits of top climbers (perhaps competition climbers more accurately) and sports people, or F1 drivers, they all have iron self belief, huge motivation and really really really not wanting to be second best in common. The people who reach the top all really want to win and really believe they're going to, rather than being 'It might be nice I guess' in their approach. Tim Henman always seemed a little bit philosophical about not getting through to or not winning the final, to me in one interview he gave that came across quite clearly. It's only after losing that one should be philosophical.

In successful sports people, there's definitely distinct patterns to be found when it comes to personality traits - and what they tell themselves as a result. That some people get injured trying, might be said to be a distinct area in itself, I think, to do with sports science and one's physical make up individually - which probably likely has more variation in it than their psychological approaches . 

In reply to afx22:

I think there is far more to these books than merely motivation. In fact that may be the least of their benefits, though they will help with harnessing it and give useful tips on how to turn a vague wish list into a practical plan. As someone else said, you probably have to bring the motivation yourself.  I am probably the least competitive person I know and just wanted to do some of those knockout lines that I always believed were a little beyond my grasp and to get more pleasure from some of the routes I was already doing where fear was taking the edge off the enjoyment. Espresso Lessons made me adjust my attitude and approach,  and helped me to think more rationally about the risks - and perceived risks - I was taking. It also gave me some practical mental techniques for keeping the show on the road when things got sticky. The upshot was that I went up a couple of sport grades fairly quickly after a long time being stuck on a plateau so  as far as I'm concerned it was money well spent. Jerry's book was interesting but did not yield  much in the way of tangible improvements. However, as I said earlier, that may be because it was repeating what I had already learned earlier.

In reply to afx22:

Would you like to buy my brand new copy? Think i may have put a mark somewhere, ill check.

In reply to Timmd:

You're still missing those that 'tried f*cking hard' (TFH) and didn't make the grade.

 

Look at it this way, with respect to climbing, Moffat TFH'd and got to 8c+. Ondra TFH'd and got to 9c. Are we to think that Moffat didn't TFH enough to get to 9c? Obviously training techniques have improved, but also it comes down to physiology - ectomorphic physiques are clearly at an advantage in climbing.

 

As climbing becomes more accessible and popular, a natural filtering of the population will occur increasing the chances of uncovering a 'talent'. The corollary is that someone without massive commitment but favourably physiology may stumble in to climbing and excel to 8c+, but without TFH'ing as much as Moffat due to other commitments such as a job and family. How could anyone TFH as much as a full time athlete?

 

I'm not suggesting TFH is not important - most of us TFH on projects. But those projects can be 6a or 8a....

 

We need to look at the sport science around getting strong. Research with a control group will trump aping of the elite. Even Olympians are guilty of pointless activities such as 'cupping' and superstitious woo woo. It might help them personally at a psychological level, but it won't help the rest of us.

 

WRT business, Branson could TFH as hard as he likes but he'd never uncover another Tubular Bells. God knows Oldfield tried to reformulate it twice and failed. That is serendipity for you.

In reply to Shani:

I'd have thought that goes without say, and that it's more about increasing one's chances?  Rather than it being 'Do this and you will be a top climber', it's about 'Do this and you'll (likely) be a better climber'. 

I'm thinking there's the potential for us to be posting at cross purposes, so this is my interpretation of books like Jerry Moffat's.

I think that one would have to be kind of daft (or under a misapprehension more charitably) to think that by following and doing what other top climbers have written, that one can also be a top climber.  

I think talking about Branson kind of muddies things a little bit, too, as a fairly successful business-relative has put it down to a large helping of luck as well as hard work and good business sense. 

Hopefully this makes my post clearer. 

In reply to Timmd:

Reminds me of getting very frustrated reading Malcolm Gladwell's 'Outliers', which was receiving widespread acclaim at the time. He was looking at certain very successful early tech pioneers (Gates, Jobs, etc.) and trying to work out what they might have had in common that led to their success, such as environment, access to latest tech, educational preference, etc., apparently implying that such common factors may have been the key to their success. While doing so he seemed to be utterly missing the point that he was studying an absurdly self-selecting group. No doubt there were a great many others with similar backgrounds who never made any waves in tech entrepreneurialism. You can certainly describe common characteristics of successful people in various fields, but you certainly can't go on to say that these characteristics in any way caused them to be successful.

In reply to john arran: It's a complex thing to look at, I think. As an example off the top of my head, I don't think there's any F1 drivers who don't have a ruthless desire to win, but not everybody with a ruthless desire to win, will win. I'd go as far to say too that if they don't have a ruthless desire to win, somebody who does will likely win instead. It's important to clarify what is being said so that nothing is assumed or implied as being sure to bring success. 

In the end the best thing anybody interested in these kinds of books can do is buy them and make their own minds up.

Edit: Some psychology studies have found that the main thing which people need to be successful, in uni life or business life, or other areas, is what might be called 'grit', the personality qualities needed to endure when things are difficult, and to bounce back from set backs (albeit eventually).  

In reply to Timmd:

Taking the thread off in a tangent, but you brought up Tim Henman, and suggested it was his lack of ‘fire’ that stopped him winning Wimbledon. 

I don’t think that’s the case. The reason he didn’t win Wimbledon, pretty much, was Pete Sampras. Henman was a very good grass court player, but had the misfortune to share an era with the second best grass court player of all time. 

In his 4 semi finals, Henman lost to the eventual winner. Given his ranking, he was over performing just to get there. He probably did as much with his talent as he could,  but in the end he was a ‘second tier’ player, in a sport where getting a lucky win against a better opponent over 5 sets is really hard. When Sampras and Ivanisevic were putting ace after  ace past him, no amount of ‘fire’ was going to get his racquet on the ball.

Andy Murray has the same problem; although he’s a much more talented player than Henman ever was, and has no shortage of ‘fire’ (maybe too much even), he’s just not as good as Federer, Nadal or Djokovic, and they’ve been a relentless wall between him and slams that he’s only rarely scaled. 

 

You can have all the will to win in the world, if the guy on the other side of the net is Roger Federer, you’re going to have a tough day...

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: That's a very fair point. Your post very neatly remind me of the need to look at every possible factor (and always, too).  Perhaps I was unduly harsh.  Have a like. 

 

In reply to Timmd:

Thank you 

I think you do have a point though, when players are evenly matched; in some of the great matches between nadal and Djokovic, it has come down to almost a pure battle of wills; after 5 hours of relentless battle, and nothing between then in terms of skill, who can force the other to submit...?

In reply to afx22:

I skimmed it and it's wasn't the best. I don't reckon jerry actually wrote it tho, probs just got a few quid to put his name on it? Which is lucky as he comes across as an absolute tit in the videos from back in the day. I'm ready for the dislikes. 

Edit: I did read his autobiography, which is really good. Better than any of the other climbing ones  I've read to be fair. 

 

In reply to snoop6060:

I don't reckon jerry actually wrote it tho, probs just got a few quid to put his name on it? Which is lucky as he comes across as an absolute tit in the videos from back in the day.

Hey snoop, I can very much assure that Jez did write it as I was in constant contact with my old mate throughout. As for your favorable mention of his Revelations I agree. Well I did, until Drunk in the Gym came out, Ha!

In reply to snoop6060:

Can't see this at all - and Andy has conclusively repudiated it. Whatever you may feel about Jerry, it's always seemed to me that he's taken great pride in everything that he's done. And he's a grafter.

 

Well, re the other thread about dislikes, I'd rather reply, than award you a dislike. Those videos only give one side of Jerry. It's always seemed to me that he was rather a shy person (common to many top climbers?) but, in his case, he developed an 'I'm the greatest' persona - which he made happen. The public persona and the private person always seemed rather different. (And don't worry, the public persona took plently hammering from his mates!) Certainly to me - an utter punter - he was absolutely fine and I'll always remember him with affection.

 

Isn't it just!

Mick

 

In reply to afx22:

I like the design of the book and the writing style (apparently he just narrated / dictated it all into his laptop) but I got about half way through and haven't gone back. 

I think its probably a good book but only for people who want to and can change their head game. For me, no matter how awesome I think I am, I'm never going to even bother most people's worst results. 

I found 8 out of 10 a better book but also got half way through and have not gone back yet. 

In reply to Mick Ward:

To be honest I just assumed he hadn't as he's not really been climbing for quite some time so was a bit of a suprise he wrote a book. And the bit about him coming across as a tit, it was just that, how he came across. Probably just massively competitive which is what made him who he was and as good as he was. But shy?? Surely not. Nobody goes on You Bet in full lycra who's shy  

In reply to snoop6060: People can be shy and have 'another personae' for protection sometimes. 

 

In reply to AP Melbourne:

Haha well I've not read yours yet so who knows, you may take #1 spot yet. I need to do skinhead moonstomp first tho! 

In reply to Timmd:

Well yes, agreed, but do you think that Jerry Moffat was shy? 

https://goo.gl/images/9KYx6C

Edit: I've not posted that link because it proves anything eitherway. I just recall it making me laugh when I first saw it. Does anyone know what the deal was with it? I presume some sort of photo shoot. 

In reply to snoop6060:

... "I need to do Skinhead Moonstomp first tho!"

RP5 near the top of the flake snoop.

[to everyone else, tee-hee] Or was it a 3, 2 or 1? Carry all - with heavy steel 'biners coz they can lift out. Don't pump out now coz the pumpiest bit is the farthest out from gear and really polished coz yr fingers are on the well-worn Positron footholds. Mind you, you'd already know that if you'd read ,,,,, [mods told me not to blatantly plug ,,,, ughh]!

I've not read Mastermind, but I worked with Jerry on his autobiography and I can honestly say that internalising some aspects of JM in this process made me a better climber.

The most obvious aspect of this was times when I can just take it up a notch in terms of the effort I give things. That go at a problem or a redpoint where I say to myself, Right, this is it! and so many times it has worked for me.

I trace that directly back to Jerry's example.

When I was younger I used to try and dress like him too. I admired his little skinny legs immensely.

 

In reply to afx22:

Thanks for all of the replies.

The generally vibe is as I suspected - that it's not as motivational or as beneficial as I'd like.  I'd like to think I already try hard (to be average, on a good day) and I already write my goals down (UKC Wishlist).

On Saturday at the Plantation, while repeatedly failing the big move on Jerry's Finish, I was thinking 'try hard.  Try really hard'!

I really enjoyed Revelations though.

In reply to snoop6060:

 

Hey Snoop, I think Punk in the Gym is essential reading and may well help with your quest.

“Andy Pollitt himself recommends that you read Jerry Moffatt’s Revelationsbefore you get engrossed in Punk in the Gym. However personally I’d recommend you read Ron Fawcett’s Rock Athlete first, followed by …and One for the Crow by John Readhead before picking up Jerry’s Revelations. After Punk in the Gym you must read Johnny Dawes Full of Myself then Ben Moon’s Statement and finally to bring you right up to date look out for Steve McClure’s Beyond Limit’s. Because I’d already read the other books I thought I knew the story and it took me a while to pick up Punk in the Gym but once I did I found it easy to read and hard to put down.” I thought it was by far the best.

http://www.climbonline.co.uk/punk_in_the_gym.htm

 

 

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Didn't Seb Grieve famously internalise Jerry mid-crux, in Hard Grit?

In reply to snoop6060:

Lycra was a thing of the times. When Jerry turned up in the Porter Cottage after that appearance on ‘you bet’, I remember the consensus being ‘awesome dude’

those were the days....

In reply to Shani:

Was it on Hard Grit?  (Would be great if it really was on camera!)  Thought it was earlier though (Dangerous Crocodile Snogging? Shudder!)

"I'm Jerry Moffatt, I'm on a top-rope..."

To which, the horrified second doubtless thought:

1) You're not Jerry.

2) And you're not on a top-rope.

3) Oh f*ck!!!

(Top tip: If you're convinced you're gonna die, any old bollox you tell yourself is probably better than dwelling on the horror - and probably getting engulfed by it.)

No shred of disrespect to Seb. He put a lot of hard work into projects. And he was very, very brave.

Mick

 

In reply to Mick Ward:

I doubt he was serious. I loved Seb's stream of consciousness mumbling on Hard Grit, it got him through some dangerous leads. Reminded me of 'Come on arms, do your stuff' 

In reply to Steve Crowe:

I've read Ron's book in a oner on a flight. And John Readheads, hmmm. Overly poetic and verbose for me that man. He doesn't like sheep tho, that we can agree on. And johnny's... Well I own that after a somewhat random encounter with the man himself (I have his bank details too) but I've not read that as I'm still jaded by the encounter. 20quid down right there! 

In any case all of these are surely better than Alex Honnald's. It's quite a skill to turn genuinely amazing feats into absolute drivel. 

In reply to Steve Crowe:

Punk in the Gym was great.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Seconded. Got it last year but only read it this Summer on holiday - really enjoyed it. Maybe you have to be a certain age?

In reply to snoop6060:

Well worth reading!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Funny really as a good friend of mine, another sensitive soul and a good climber, assures me of Johnny's virtues. They are friends. He does sound lovely. But I feel like I was sold a dodgy bag from some nutter in a BMW. Was quite surreal. 

In reply to afx22:

Matermind? 

Is that the requirement for an ascent of Oedipus?

b

 

In reply to snoop6060:

JD’s biog is the only one I’ve never managed to read more than once. It’s a bit sloppy, but I guess that’s because it was self published. In total contrast, you haven’t got Paul Pritchard’s biog about the Llanberis year’s etc on your list, which is a cracking read.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Hi Mick

i think Seb’s out of body experience as Jerry was on Clippety Clop, Clippety Clop.

btw, totally agree about Jerry being quite circumspect behind the competitive mask.

Paul

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Agreed. Reading about the death routes was terrifying, you were praying, "Please Andy, just stay alive" (even though, obviously, you know that - mercifully - he did). 

But, even more than that, what made it for me was the sheer humanity of it - his honesty in facing up to himself as a person, not just a climber. That's a tough deal for anyone to do.

The only other climbing autobiography I've read (though I've not read 'em all) with the same distinctive quality is the manuscript of the forthcoming Gary Gibson book. It's the moments of joy, sadness, feelings about people and places, that just make it. You laugh, you cry, you're with him on this mad rollercoaster ride through life.

For me, that's what makes a great autobiography.

Mick

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Hi Paul,

You're absolutely right. While out on my morning meander, an hour ago, it just came to me. I wonder who the poor second was. I've always yearned for a list of Paul Pritchard's seconds on The Enchanted Broccoli Garden and the Super Calabrese - and their respective reactions. Didn't one of them burst into tears when PP was in extremis? (Think I would have!)

I would imagine you knew Jerry far better than I did. (Generally I strenuously avoided climbers' pubs and would just bump into him on the street or at the crag). He seemed quite shy initially (early 80s). Obviously he donned the mask and found it got him through stuff - and he did make himself the best climber in the world - and maybe, in the end, it was just easier to 'become the mask'. But I always liked him and thought there was a lot more to him than those videos (where he was hamming it up like crazy).

All best wishes,

Mick

In reply to AP Melbourne:

I guess I can plug your book though?

It's dead cool, and here's a link. 

https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/books/categories/biographies/punk-in-the-gym...

In reply to Timmd:

Another plug from me. Micks' s comments are spot on. Cheers Andy.

I also really enjoyed JD's book. Messyness and all. When ocasionally sitting on walls outside the KMFF helping him try to sell his work I felt more like I was working with a misunderstood artist who really needed the cash than a dodgy salesman in a BMW. The people at the festival were mainly middle class and loaded and in the most part highly dismissive. He was hardly selling junk: his book is pretty unique and the dvd's amazing. I also really liked One for the Crow and remember well the Kendal audience reaction to JR's slot in a trilogy of histories of Welsh climbing (seriously? What did they expect??). Unforgettable stuff.

In reply to Offwidth:

Agreed. One For the Crow, Full Of Myself (brilliant title), Punks In The Gym, Rock Athlete, and Revelations are all really good.

 

I do wonder at the apparent lack of characters at the forefront of climbing nowadays. Perhaps the physical excellence demanded to reach 'the top' leaves no room for mavericks with colourful lives to make it in this sport? Or am i just out of touch with the scene?

In reply to Shani:

What they do these days is very much in the face of the public , given electronic media, so maybe they have to be more careful with the public profile! There are major characters who have climbed hard in the last decade. Maybe not quite up there with the likes of JD or JR though.

In reply to Shani: I came across something online or on TV, along the lines of today's top climbers being vegan salad eating types who have an early night because they're climbing tomorrow, compared to climbers of yore who drank and partied into the morning and got up and climbed the next day, but what Off Width says is probably true, that any partying and nefarious activities need to be kept hidden away so that sponsors are happy. I remember Leo Holding giving some kind of clarification during the 90's that he didn't take and hadn't taken drugs, and it wasn't his kind of thing. While he's a free spirited hedonistic type who was a teenager during a time when teens were more likely to take drugs and drink and smoke dope than teenagers today, it might still be true.  

 

In reply to Timmd:

You're probably right. Maybe the next generation of autobiographies will lift the lid!

In reply to AP Melbourne:

Well I did, until Drunk in the Gym came out, Ha!

don't you mean Hunk in the Gym

In reply to Shani:

I doubt they will ever be that open. Even the bios we have are toned down. I know of many foolish things that remained away from the public and I'm hardly close to the centre of any scene. The only way I could see such behaviour exposed in any proportionate way would be in fiction.