UKC

Hi
Im intrigued by the notion that anyone would trust knotted rope for gear placements, but i hear that it is practised somewhere in europe due to environmental issues. Has anyone on here tried this? Cant find much info on the net, any links please?

Cheers Ed.

In reply to Ed morris:
<enter Only a hill>

In reply to Ed morris: On a university trip once we set up a bottom-rope anchor for a route, and plenty of people proceeded to have a go, we realised when we took the anchor down that the gear had never been weighted because the knot we'd tied in the sling to make sure it staye equalised had caught in a notch on the lip. It was damn near impossible to get that knot out.

In reply to Ed morris:

I'd ling to the "Towers of Silence: Sandstone Spires of the Broumov Highlands" article on planet fear but the UKC website is being a smart arse.

In reply to Ed morris:

it's being used in the 'Elbsandstein' close to Dresden/Germany because the sandstone is to soft for metal gear.

Someone did strength testing on various knots and a figure8 knot on a single strand wedged in a constriction came out best.
there are knots which act like cams, expanding when loaded.
The main thing to head attention to is that the constrictions need to be more pronounced to hold the cord as loading the knot will narrow it's diamter. Knots should be well tightened in advance.
the biggest rope 'nut' is to take whole rope, coil it up and thread with a sling, voila your hex 11...

hth and I will try to find the link to the strength testing

In reply to uncontrollable:
here the link: http://www.joergbrutscher.homepage.t-online.de/knoten.htm
sorry it's in German, but it got pictures ...

In reply to Ed morris:

They work, we used them a couple of times doing new routyes when we ran out of gear due to lending som to another party.

Best tale is of trying to cross a green slab in the rain high up on a route, Could not do it without sliding off but saw a bit of tat hanging down froma roof so used it as a runner. Still could not do it so weighted it for tension and still could not do it. Eventually hauled myself up on it on the roof and went straight up, it was a jammed knot cut off the rope by someone earlier.

In reply to uncontrollable: Believe this is it in English

http://www.joergbrutscher.homepage.t-online.de/knotene.htm

In reply to Ed morris:

You already use ropes - with knots presumable? Slight modification of approach needed and Bobs's yer uncle!


Chris

In reply to moonraker:
that's correct

In reply to Ed morris:

Try "Climbing in Saxony, anyone been?" in Rock Destinations, more than six months ago, posted by dezbert. I would post the link, if I knew how.

In reply to Al Evans:
Good film of these ethics in The sharp End dvd IIRC.
We go on about out ethics and balls of steel etc, you should see these guys! Mental!

In reply to Ed morris:


There is a good example of knotted rope placements on Napes Needle. Someone has made a good job of the belay at the shoulder using knots only. I would imagine that plenty of people will of used them without realising that they are knot placements!

In reply to Ed morris: Coming off the matterhorn a few winters back in a storm we began to run out of gear. The last three abseils were our prussiks in cracks, the abseil before had been our last ice screw hammered into a crack.

I would never say that they were bomber and I had a previously undiscovered level of fear, but they worked.

In reply to Ed morris:

What's not to trust? I occasionally use them in belays when I'm low on gear or it's the best fit for a given placement.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

I've used them in Saxony but I wouldn't say I really 'trusted' them, from the perspecvtive of 20' above whilst pulling onto friable sandstone 'jugs' !

In reply to uncontrollable:

The point about using knots instead of nuts on this Saxony sandstone is surely not so much because the locals have balls of steel (which they have), but that conventional nuts are unsuitable for the very friable/ soft sandstone?

In reply to Ed morris:

They've been around for a long time and are remarkably effective on sandstone and grit, as they 'mould' themselves to the shape of the relatively soft rock under pressure but can be a proverbial sod to remove, especially if they've been 'weighted'.

IIRC apparently the second ascentionists of Joe Brown's route on the Dru (the 'Fissure Brown') were amazed to find slings with jammed knots in place instead of the more common continental wooden wedge!

In reply to GrahamD:

Depends on the placement and size of knot I guess. The one's I've used I'd class as good gear.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

There is a big difference between the academic knowledge that a piece of gear is 'good', and trusting it to the point of being willing to take a 40 footer off it !

In reply to jkarran:

I commend you on the most idiotic stament you have made to date.

In reply to muppetfilter: I don't understand the criticism in the last post.

Before a trip to Czech sandstone I tested a few knotted slings at Symonds Yat. I jumped on them while backed up with a loose toprope. Two out of the three held, and the one that failed was probably 6mm, so I didn't have high hopes for it anyway. I didn't fall when I was using them in earnest on holiday, but I felt fairly safe.

In reply to muppetfilter:


Go on then, prove to me you're not just a sneering f***wit with a superiority complex... Explain my mistake to me, if your point's valid I'll acknowledge it gladly and thank you for your input.

I know I've been rude to you in the past (perhaps ruder than I intended) and there's more than a little bad blood between us but I really don't see the point of your post other than to antagonise me. Well done, it worked.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

You wonder why i find your posts dangerous, please read carefully what you wrote above...Please bear in mind that these forums are read by people that are new to climbing. For an experienced climber to make a judgement call about a non best practice technique is their own responsibility. What we tell others is an acceptable technique has to be done with care.

You know better than this so please dont do it.

In reply to muppetfilter:

>For an experienced climber to make a judgement call about a non best practice technique is their own responsibility.

He did not say it was an acceptable technique, though it is for experienced people. He said the ones HE had used were good gear fro him.

We climbed on the same cliffs using the same methods at times and used them to do a couple of new routes as said earlier in the early 80s.

Your comments were uncalled for. I was going to post telling you that but thought, no it is muppet blowing off again.

In reply to sutty: Sorry sutty but no,

there are young lads and lasses on a budget who dont know any better that will think. "brilliant" i can go out and lead with ..... There are enough accidents and deaths with conventional gear without suggesting homemade gear.

If knotted rope is so good why doesnt everyone do it, simply because it isn't.

In reply to muppetfilter:


You're telling me that outburst is because I didn't add any caveats to my post or link to the terms and conditions for use of this website? You really do let your dislike get in the way of your judgement sometimes.

<caveat> Climbing is dangerous. If you don't understand something: Ask.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/general/terms.html

If that were truly what you were concerned about you'd have explained yourself adding the caveat for me and for the benefit of others, you didn't, as usual you chose the petty hit and run sniping that you're so good at.

I do acknowledge your point that placing knots (like all other gear) requires a degree of knowledge and judgement, this much is obvious and not my responsibility to point out after every vaguely climbing related post.

jk

In reply to muppetfilter:
What kind of protection to use really depends on the kind of rock. I learned to climb on Saxon sandstone and am quite comfortable with knotted slings as protection. It should be noted, that in Saxony you often also tie off flakes, use threads and even find the occasional bolt there, when no other protection is viable and reasonable safety requires it.

Anyway, knotted slings are only good on cracks which have a rather pronounced constriction. A bit like wires but the crack should be even less parallel go get a good placement. I find that such placements are more common in Saxon sandstone than on grit in the UK. Probably to do with the fact the sandstone whithers down much quicker. So the surface is less even.

So, don't condemn knotted slings as unreliable home-made gear. They are anly as good as the placement but that goes for any piece of protection. If you place it badly, an expensive camming device will not save you...

Michael

In reply to jkarran: You were obviously never 14 and mad keen for climbing, i can assure you that your comments will be read by someone that is. If you are going to make a bold sweeping statement please have the consideration for these individuals as they dont know any better... You most certainly do.

If you think that because UKC has an open policy stateing exemption from responsibility it doesnt change the fact we all have a moral responsibility not to make flippant comments.

The beauty of climbing is the fact that there are no hard and fast rules, however there most certainly is a best accepted practice and a moral obligation to others safety.. If you dont feel competent to adhere to this then please refrain from endangering others.

In reply to miho: With the greatest respect a majority of UK climbers will never visit Saxony, and to those that do they most certainly will research the local evolution of protection and ethics.And enjoy the fantastic climbing with adherance to local techniques.

My main concern here is that if you put the concept of knotted rope being acceptable to folks with limited funds then it becomes an apparent option. If Knotted rope is so good why isnt every climbingshop wall covered in them for sale? They are ineffective and unsuitable for UK rock types.

In reply to muppetfilter:


No, they're less convenient and less useful than commercially available wired aluminium. Used sensibly they both do a job. The metal nut will do more jobs with less user judgement required to achieve the same end.

jk

In reply to muppetfilter:

The comment I made was specific and related to my personal experience. It could in no reasonable way be interpreted as a wholesale endorsement of knots in place of nuts.

If I'd said "knotted cord makes bomber nut replacements" then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. I didn't, I said the ones I've used, I've considered good. That's a statement of fact and a very specific one.

Just for you, I'll elaborate: Mostly I use knots as hex replacements in belays (I don't carry hexes), I usually tie them in either 9mm static or 8mm dynamic, I place them in strongly constricting placements or keyholes that neck down to near the rope diameter. They're good placements and there's nothing any more 'homemade' about them than had I used that rope to sling a spike or thread a hole.

jk

In reply to Ed morris:
I have used knotted cord and rope for gear when climbing trees, as the knots deform into the cracks and do not damage or rip the bark when you take a fall. In this (highly specialised!) situation it's a very good form of gear. It's most useful for beech trees, which often feature highly tapered cracks.

In reply to Ed morris:

When i started climbing i was poor....the end.

I had to chhose my gear carfull and i used carry a range of cord with a pre tied loop in, for crack placements. depending on the knot and diameter of cord they gave good placememnts.

In reply to miho:

Hi Michael,

How goes ? as I said higher up, there is a big difference between knowing something is sound and actually trusting it ! especially given the 'variable' nature of the rock (and I'm sure you took us to the most solid areas).

In reply to Al Evans: I am well aware of the Moac, i even own one :0)

Your comments really reminded me of a situation i witnessed where a certain well known cold climbs editor body belayed a visiting Wildcountry rep up Liquid Courage at Staden. He had the rope loosly draped round his bum while a figure of eight and hms hang on his harness. I will never forget the look of fear in the eyes of that poor guy after he got back down.There was no reason to belay this way, there was a better way to do it and it would have proved more effective. I am saying this as the pal of a guy who spent 3 months in hospital due to a body belay fall.
Things evolve for a reason Al and it is with the utmost respect for pioneers that i say this.Some designs are so superb there is little that can be done to refine them. Some are consigned to history and probably best left there.

In reply to muppetfilter:
Things evolve for a reason Al and it is with the utmost respect for pioneers that i say this.Some designs are so superb there is little that can be done to refine them. Some are consigned to history and probably best left there.

Completely agree, its just that modern improvements don't stop the old ones working, which is what I thought this thread was about.

In reply to muppetfilter: Incidently, I'd rather have Ken Wilson ,John Barry or Dave Alcock belaying me with a waist belay than somebody who thinks a belay device is foolproof after asking advice on here.