UKC

A mate did Sydney Syrup (or an offroute variation thereon) last weekend in the Dinkum Wall Area of Trevallen/St Govans(?) at the top of this there are no belay stakes between the top of Solider of Fortune and a very untrustworthy looking wooden stake on the opposite side of the road above the Army Dreamers block. The only belays we could find were a rabbit warren and using the bunker 50 m away on a spare rope. Is this the usual way of belaying for routes in this area. Also what is the precedent for placing/replacing stakes. Is there any policy or ethical standpoint? Also is there any standard for materials used?

So no-one gives a toss then. I'll get me coat

In reply to Chris Fryer:
I'm sure someone cares...

Unfortunately, I don't - have a clue where you belay for that route, that is. I know Army Dreamers is easy enough to belay at, but that's not very useful, huh?

In reply to Chris Fryer:

I think Monty used to pinch those things they use to cordon off roadworks.

Sorry Chris, I helped put the ones in on Chapel Point (and then immediately abbed off them - now that's exciting), but I don't know about the Dinkum Wall area. I guess Ian Parsons put something in. Maybe it's rotted away, or he needed it for somewhere else!

In reply to Chris Fryer:

Come back Chris....

I did the steep one pitch E3 above Dinkum Wall last year - the one you access from St Govans along a narrowing ledge - but being aware of the huge gap in the stakeline above these routes I pre-rigged a belay with a spare rope linking 2 very widely spaced stakes, and the odd rabbit hole. There may have been a nut right on the lip also, but the whole affair was far from ideal.

What we need is benevolent company which uses stonking great alloy stakes complete with krab holes; an employee with access to the said stakes, and a very large hammer.

Some years ago this elusive combination did occasionally operate in Pembroke. The company was EMEB, but I'm afraid the further details are strictly classified.

But if you want to see the results, just go and do a route on the Space Face at Mother Careys, the slope above which features the best stakes in Pembroke.

I'll see if I can encourage him to revisit...

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:

How do you belay off a rabbit hole, do you thread the warren or something?

In reply to Neil Foster: Sounds like the same route. As I said, we ran a rope back to the old bunker, which got strange looks from walkers. What you described sounds ideal. Or maybe some old snow stakes - bought but never used?

In reply to Chris Fryer: I was think similar thoughts myself at the weekend.

If someone came along with a load of big metal tubes that had clip holes would they then be castigated by the old fart element (could have called them stick's in the mud)on the basis that "I climbed that route without a stake belay lalalala..."

If this would be OK with the masses what length should the stakes be?

Your thoughts...

Timbo

In reply to Paz: I stock my hand into the soft earth in the bottom of it and found a little hole poking out the side. A bit worrying as the earth seemed to be full of little holes that those crap flies were hatching out of.

In reply to Chris Fryer:
Bomb Proof then!

In reply to Paz:

Other than that Paz, the traditional way is just to whack a leg in

In reply to Chris Fryer:

Big bits of preferably alloy angle do the job. Three feet long and 3 inches square if possible and at least 2/3 of it buried. Put in a few new ones up North but none down South. Your arms ache for days afterwards and usually after you've got a foot and a half in you hit rock and have to try somewhere else! We got ours from a blacksmiths at Croesgoch in N. Pembs and from a variety of roadside installations.

In reply to Chris Fryer:
I've put in around 30 stakes at Swanage. Sections of water pipe seem to last well. The worst I've seen was scaffolding pole. After a couple of years I went back to one I'd placed at the eastern end of the Ruckle, and while I was eating my lunch I pulled on it - for no particular reason - and it broke! I guess it may have been rustier than I thought to start with. There were other stakes that had lasted over 20 years though. A car half-shaft belay lasted a long time at Cattle Troughs too.

As to St Govans, I'd say put some more stakes in: good ones, only the minimum needed, and not too obtrusive.

Having abbed off a gorse bush last weekend makes me appreciate the advantages of stakes!

In reply to Chris Fryer:

some of the stakes on Brean down are pretty "interesting" - the 2inch angle iron seems to have held up pretty well, but the soil erosion around them is incredible, and I'd doubt whether there is much more than 6inches in the ground.

if you use angle iron, make sure you place it with the open side of the "V" facing towards the direction of pull, this'll make quite alarge difference - many of those at Brean are the other way around

In reply to H: interesting question this. which way round does a snowstake go? and does the same logic apply to stakes in ground? In which case the open part of the "V" should face away from the direction of load. any thoughts from those with an applied mathematics bent?

In reply to slim tim:

you've just made me think again about this, and you could be right - if you pull agaist a stake with the "V" facing you you are pulling the "slice" of ground that is as wide as the hypotanuse of a right angled triangle. if you pullagainst one with the "V" facing away then you are pulling against two "slices" which each are as wide as the side of the same triangle - but you're pulling at an angle to them.

in short I haven't a clue, but couldn't you work this out just by doing some vector-type calculations

anyone have the time to do this?

In reply to slim tim:

I've been given 2 bits of scrap steel which are now christened my belay stakes. They're about 1.5 ft long and 1x2.5cm thick, with bolts through the end to snag slings, should be able to bury them to the hilt. Can't leave them insitu tho' or they'll rust. Better than a leg down a rabbit hole....


hose

In reply to hoseyb:

they'll look good hanging off your gear-loops!!

In reply to H: I would say the wide angle should face the direction the load is coming from as you would be pishing against a secion of earth/snow rather than the pointed side, which would have a cutting effect. Like this?
______________ Cliff edge
I
I
I
I rope
V stake

In reply to H:

The sledgehammer is the worst part, though !

In reply to Chris Fryer:

my initial logical (?!) thought was the same until it was questioned ...

In reply to GrahamD:

Homebase do a 1.5lb hammer, whats the best way to put a loop on it, Drill or just use (nylon) tape?


hose

In reply to H: the only thing I can think of is that if it pivots at any point above the bottom, the narrow profile may cause it to tilt over. could happen either way round tho. why not have it like:

----------
|
|
|_

then its presenting a flat side to the pull



hose

In reply to hoseyb:

Needs to be symmetrical otherwise a sling may apply a torque to the stake.

In reply to GrahamD:
ahh...oops

more material but why not bang in two together

_||_

then its more like a T-stake (snow stake)

In reply to Chris Fryer:

i think the load is distributed at 45deg either side of the load applied by the climber/belayer. this is why snow stakes are normally right angled. therefore if the "V" is down towards the climber the load is distributed on the flat face of the stake which must be good. If the stake is the other way round then only the edge of the metal distributes the load i.e if it's only 2mm thick that can't be good. can anyone come up with a better explaination?

Just as an after thought dead men go in like so ----/ with the load downwards same logic me thinks.

In reply to slim tim:
Harder to bend it that way - same idea as an I-beam?
In fact, I think I've seen a stake shaped like an I-beam somewhere?