UKC

Does anyone else hate pof with a passion? what a rubbish substance.

In reply to tony92:
After going to font and seeing the state of some of the polish I do dislike it. However chalk does damage too.
James

In reply to james oswald:

So you think the fact that there's polish at one of the oldest & most popular climbing sites in the world requires an explanation?

Just curious.

In reply to tony92:

I wish I hadn't seen this thread! It's made me all upset and angry inside. I do hate the stuff with a passion. Polish yes, but not like the polish you get on other routes in this country.

Poff polish man. I think I've said this before, if it was "right" to glue yourself to a wall using an artificial "substance" then climbing shoes would be made of pritstick or something!

In reply to Twisty:

It's tree resin isn't it?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Maybe artificial was the wrong word! Same idea though, it sets hard and glossy, faster than years of wear would polish the rock.

Stop winding me up :-p

I'd love to see the reaction if i went bouldering at Stanage with that stuff though...

In reply to tony92: you can buy pof in decathlon down near lakeside.. i was quite shocked to see it for sale there with the bad reputation it has in this country.. i guess if you're stopping en route to fontainebleau you could pick some up..

i've never used the stuff, would be kind of interested to know how it compares to chalk! not that i would ever use it, but would like to know what all the fuss was about!!

In reply to Twisty: I'm curious as to whether you use chalk in Font?

In reply to tony92:

Pof will be used in this country.

maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow but it will be used.

Somebody is going to come along and say 'I am an individual and I will not be dictated to and if I want to use Pof to improve my grades then I will use it'

Be afraid because Pof will be used soon by somebody who knows better than the established consensus of opinion.

You've probably not been climbing for long enough, but a number of years ago there was a picture of a highly respected climber on the cover of a popular climbing mag doing Brad Pitt at Stanage with his pof rag on the floor.
Apparently the justification was that he only used the other end to whack the holds with.....not that there was any pof on that end!

In reply to The Lemming: I think if they were caught doing so, especially on grit it would be challenged rather vigorously.

In reply to tony92: has anyone on here used it.. (not judging, because i use chalk and so many people say thats bad..i just want to know if its any good) .. or would they be to scared to admit it?

In reply to Twisty:


So how do you explain the fact that 15 years ago when I started going there regularly (after 70 years of climbing with pof) polish wasn't a problem?
I'm not saying it isn't a factor but I can't see how it could be pof alone.

In reply to Twisty:

I don't like pof personally. I have bought and tried it in Fontainebleau.

However......."climbing shoes would be made of pritstick or something!".........polyisobutylene
or PIB (C4H8)n doesn't grow on trees you know.

In reply to Twisty: i think that where ever you go you have to respect ethics of the area be it pof / chalk

In reply to pauldr:

absolutly, they are not my rocks, and I do only go once or twice a year. I respect the local culture, but still have my own opinions, right or wrong!

In reply to peterbull:

I do use chalk, and I know it "damamges" the rock. But I do make an effort to clean the holds after use, and I only use it on my hands, and not pour it over the rock.

I suppose poff is more "natural" and maybe it's because I've failed on a probelm that I've seen someone using poff on, and obviously that's the reason I can't do it, not strength, technique or anything else.

Kind of blame thing that all climbers have (on another note- how many people does anyone lower off a route or see fail on a boulder problem and they genuinly say I'm not good enough?!!!- it's always "I miss read the move" "my foot slipped" this are old shoes... was too pumped to chalk up, I fumbled that first clip..!!

haha ahh ethics

In reply to tony92:

I can't remember noticing "the hideous impacts of pof" on the rock when I was in font to be honest, can't remember any polish or big dark patches either.

Does the stickyness help bind together the crystals on sandstones or pull them apart?

On a related topic why isn't chalk green/brown to prevent unsightlyness on the crags?

Does anybody know where i can get some rock coloured chalk?

And does anybdoy know what is in this eco ball stuff: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/eco_ball.html ??

In reply to petellis:


Some parts are getting very polished but as I said it's far more popular & has been for much longer than anywhere in the UK.
In addition the rock is softer than most places in the UK(except Northumberland & southern sandstone)


I don't think anyone really knows the answer.


It has been marketed in the past with little success. After all that's not really the big problem with chalk from a climbers point if view, although it might be from a landowners.


I think you could add some food dye if you're that keen.


Not a clue.

In reply to i.munro:

Re. coloured chalk:

I'll probably regret asking this but what is the big problem with chalk from a climber's perspective if it isn't the whiteness of it?


You could if you wanted lumpy chalk and brown hands
jk

In reply to jkarran:


& I'm probably going to regret answering
However the reason for the ban in Fontainebleau is that it is claimed to make the rock permanently slippery.
The suggested mechanism for this is that it blocks the pores in the rock?

The same reason is given for the ban on the sandstone in California & the (now abandoned) ban on Southern Sandstone(I'm guessing the ban on Czech sandstone is for the same reason).

Regardless of the truth of this I would suggest that the constant brushing required to get the stuff off is going to add considerably to the polish.

In reply to i.munro:

WOW! You've been climbing for 85 years. You look good for it!

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

You clearly haven't met me

In reply to tony92:

No!

I think it is total bollocks that self righteous british climnbers harp on about the use of pof in font. The bleausards have been using pof as an aid to friction there for decades and despite being averse to the use of chalk, they have had to accept british climbers ignoring their wishes. Listen you stupid t@$ts, if the French came over here and started using pof willy nilly then I may forgive you for moaning, but they don't. We go over there and use chalk against their wishes and you still feel the need to whinge about their traditional practices in their country.
Sticky boots polish rock by leaving residue but thats ok isn't it because thats something you're use to you hypocrite. If you're such a purist climb in bare feet and don't use chalk.

On one occasion in font I was trying and amost succeeding on a slab problem (using pof) and some brits turned up to try it too. They decided to cake the holds in chalk and fail miserably to climb it. When I went to have another go it was unclimable due to the chalk. I'm no saint because i do use chalk in font too, but in moderation and with consideration.

Don't knock other peoples traditional practices especially when they respect ours.

In reply to tony92:

when in Rome.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

tree resin processed in chemical factories...pof aka 'colophane'
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colophane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosin

In reply to peterbull:


everyone uses chalk in font, including 99% of french locals.


three groups of people still use pof :

-ignorant irrespectuous visitors use pof AND chalk, the lethal mix. (pof is sticky...it helps your performances way more than chalk...and you can use it only in font so you have to try... well, try it for a month on your hangboard to see the pro's and the con's, before you come here please.).

-some beginners filled with odd sense of climbing traditions (the same kind of climbers that *accuse* f8b climbers of "not having technique" and "oly using strenght", if you know what I mean...)

-some older bleausards who can't stop the habit (but they are less and less).

In reply to ghisino:
My experience of regularly climbing with French friends suggests otherwise.
Pof is also used extensively in Annot.

and I have to add : years and year ago, i tried pof on a wooden door frame I was using as "hangboard".

after some time you start to feel an odd residue. Contrary to chalk, this residue is really hard to brush away.

on the contrary a totally caked sloper can be turned into total grippyness in 30 seconds of the right brush.



ah, if you want to pick something from the bleausards, everyone seems to go to castorama and buy this brush, it is really worth the extra price. If someone has it around, you'll soon forget your nylon dishwashing brush or the toothbrush.
Make sure you get the softest one (black soy hair)
http://www.castorama.fr/store/brosse-ronde-en-soie-naturelle-manche-en-resi...

In reply to Serpico:

maybe we know different generations?

In reply to ghisino:

Tree resin heated to drive off the volatiles - hardly high tech chemistry!

Chris

In reply to ghisino:

Funny that. In my 100 plus days in Font, and climbing with friends who are locals, this wasn't my perception at all.

In reply to Chris Craggs:



anyway.
a very interesting thing is that if you call pof with its other names ("colophane", "greek peech" etc) and you go almost anywhere telling that you use it on the local crag/boulders, you'll be dead soon.

@Serpico
my knowledge of french climbers is mostly less than 35years old (with exceptions), living in paris or in suburbs, climbing in the forest and/or @the gym several times a week. Living here since october..

Am I right that the generation(s) that used pof deliberately is(are) the same that chipped artificial holds in many of bleau's classics (eg "la balance") or that put a thin layer of sika on a too-polished foot smear?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

this was my genuine impression in autumn/winter 2008/2009 season. Every possible day in october (including weekdays) and every possible weekend since november...

...but hey I migh be hanging out with a peculiar fraction of the bleau population...my genuine impression would also be that 90% of the local climbers are potheads, for instance

In reply to ghisino:
>my genuine impression would also be that 90% of the local climbers are potheads, for instance

Now that i will agree with

In reply to ghisino:

I suspect that a large percentage of parisian climbers do use chalk as you say but an argument I've heard (from anti-chalkers) is that once a hold has been chalked, wrecking the friction, there's no more harm to be done by using chalk yourself.

Seems slightly muddled thinking to me but I think that's been explained in a post above

In reply to i.munro:

being realistic, we all know that *most* chalk can be easily eliminated by brushing alone, and *like new* grip can be almost always achieved, provided you have the right brush : that castorama link has its reasons*!
brushing with some water does even better but you can't do it in winter coz it will never dry.

*remember, in font mid-soft natural fibers work better than nylon, big fat brushes better than toothbrush, and metal is of course banned. Nylon already starts to do some erosion on softer sandstone if used brutally, indeed you can see that some hard nylon brushes make some font slopers feel "sandy"...

this as far as you only care about grip.

the problem of visual impact though might remain even after careful brushing, at least on some kinds of rock.
it seems that only serious direct rainfall can do an effective cleaning job. Unless you spend 15 minutes and 2 liters of water on each single handold.

but pof has the residue problem...so you have to choose between visual impact (more important for non-climbers maybe) and polish/conditions impact (more concerning other climbers coming after you).

pof+chalk gets both impacts in a single package and makes the visual impact even harder to eliminate, for obvious glueing reasons.

In reply to ghisino:

In reply to ghisino:

that isn't my experience at all. & the justification for the existing chalk ban is that chalk alters the characteristics of the rock permanently.

Yes using water does help but that strikes me as being pretty selfish (why I should care about others when all the chalk-users clearly don't is a mystery to me, but it seems that I do)




No I don't. I can do as cosiroc & the ONF request & use neither.

In reply to i.munro:

???

can you re-write in a different form? the sentence is not clear...

anyway many chalk users (including me and some friends) seem to brush or even wash away their traces, at least on boulders where they eventually succed.
They have also been seen carefully collecting used strappal and other miscellaneous trash in their pockets.
Weird rituals isn't it?


btw
with wind and temperatures above 10°, holds sprayed with a little water and brushed dry in 5-10 minutes and they are both more textured and colder.
So it is a perfectly reasonable practice even in a totally selfish perspective.

In reply to i.munro:

well saturday I was trying and trying and trying this popular sloper problem in Cuvier...not far from marie rose.
I was holding the exit sloper with my fingertips over a small relief. It was quite caked and I could not really feel the texture.


I walked on the top and started brushing carefully with the magic brush. After 2 minutes of gentle massage the hold the sloper finally looked clean.
(a french buddy asked if i am that careful in dishwashing )

I tried again and did the move easily, able to hold with the full hand. half grade easier :p

In reply to ghisino:


You seem to have understood it perfectly well from your comments.


I think that's very much the minority. Thanks for trying though.

I am a little concerned at the long-term effect of all this cleaning though. Wouldn't it be better just to not smear slippery stuff on the holds
at all?

In reply to tony92:

The question is interesting. Certainly if the Bleausards want to use pof, and don't want people using chalk, then that's probably what should be done over there. In response to at least one profane rant about hypocrites denigrating pof and not chalk, I think that we can quite reasonably discuss the merits of either here, without being guilty of destroying anybody's playground, or disrespecting anybody's wishes.

For my part, I'd say that on my rare visits to Font, I've had the opportunity to see a glassy finish on some slopers that was quite unlike any polish I'd seen elsewhere. I put that down to their being coated with resin and subsequently polished by much passage, and reached a conclusion that both pof and very heavy traffic were probably needed to cause such damage. It was my feeling that this probably did a kind of damage that sadly meant routes weren't subsequently climbable without pof.

However, all of that is anecdotal, and it may be polish alone that I'm observing. Nor do I suggest that the Bleau locals don't have the right to determine the local ethics. But as I cast my mind back over what I've observed there, I can't help but guess that there is a degree of damage at work that couldn't happen without the assistance of pof.

In reply to cmsg:

You mean a degree of polish that couldn't happen without pof. Many Pof proponents believe (rightly or wrongly) that it's pof that keeps erosion at bay by binding the rock together. Whether this is true or not I don't know, but compare the erosion on the bid footholds on L'Elephant where pof hasn't been deemed necessary with the small footholds on problems where it is used.

In reply to Serpico: I don't know the answer, but I do know that Elephant has very soft sandy rock compared to other venues.

In reply to tony92:

Plenty of Polish climb at Font. I know some very nice ones, to refer to them as pof is an insult.

In reply to Serpico:

Compare also the situation with Southern Sandstone.
(probably the closest area in the UK in terms of geology & popularity).

There, footholds on easier routes aren't polished they've simply been destroyed & replaced by sandy scoops.
Now there used to be a culture in Bleau of careful shoe cleaning that is sadly absent in the UK so pof may (or may not)play a part.

In reply to i.munro:

is it the cloth around pof that cleans the shoe, or the cleaning action comes from the sticky substance inside it?


also, i notice that smaller footholds in bleau mostly happen on this kind of formations that look more glassy and more solid than the rest of the sandstone, as if there was more silica or quartz. Not sure but sounds like "gratton" is the proper name*...but this could both be a reason for less erosion and for more polish.

a good example of ugly polished footholds is the bottom section of "l'abattoir". If you touch with your hands, it feels greasy all over, even where people should not place their feet (totally blank sections few inches next to some small smearable or edgeable feature).
Pof, or simply countless tries by people with very bad idea of footwork? Who knows...

anyway, it is quite an uncertain debate without trying. Someday I'll collect two small stones in the forest, dip one in pof one in cake, set them out of my window for a month, and see what's happened






*@ frenchies
"gratton"=crimp

or

"gratton"=crimp, harder glassy formation in fontainbleau grés (usually rich in sharp crimps)

???

In reply to ghisino:


I was thinking more of the traditional mat.


Exactly. Nobody knows. I agree with cosiroc that both should be avoided but the case against chalk seems much clearer.
Even it's supporters admit it has to be cleaned off & that must contribute to polish & a large body of experienced opinion thinks it does much more damage than just that.

In reply to i.munro:

The rock in Font is of a hardness and quality of sandstone not found anywhere in the UK(not inc grit), except areas of Torridonian sandstone. Even Northumberland is softer than Font. It is not comparable to SS. The problem with shoe cleaning maybe, but it's irrelavent to this topic on POF.

In reply to catt:

My point was that it was the nearest we've got.
Also both areas have rock of variable hardness & quality & I would say that the hardest & best of SS is directly comparable to the poorer & softer areas at Bleau.

In reply to tony92: just come back from font.i didnt see any damaged caused by what could be pof.we used it ourselfs.after all the place is full of pine trees so resin will be everywhere.

In reply to i.munro:

I am a previous user of pof, ehm, of dried and crushed tree resin from my own garden, and after seeing what it was doing to the doorframe I was using it on I stopped.

This is the closest I got to an "experimental" kind of experience.

I also have to say that it was giving a hell of a good grip when freshly put, so this might be a reason why aficionados are so fiercely defending it. It works, period.


by the way, the pof Vs chalk debate is not limited to climbing. In some gymnastics and athletic specialties (pole jump, throwing events), one has the option to choose. Interesting that in some events rosin is forbidden (why?) http://www.wvssac.org/track/Track%20Games%20Committee.htm
If I heard it right, athletes using

In reply to cmsg:

After reading this thread yesterday I had a look at my Font guidebooks to see who in the photos was and wasn't using chalk. Obviously the pictures are mainly of classic, and usually hard problems. I think most of the climbers are French and presumably many are Bleausards. And almost every one of them is using chalk.

This is because it's really effective at helping you climb a given problem, so it's a bit of a losing battle for the no-chalk-allowed-in-Font guys, since they're asking everyone to fail on problems they could otherwise tick (an unlikely request to be met). And there's no evidence behind the statement that it genuinely is the local ethic these days, or that this ethic is adhered to by any meaningful proportion of the local climbing population.

While climbing in Font with chalk, on completely chalk-plastered problems (plastered before I got there), I have on several occasions been told to stop using it by some pof-wielding person or other. These have never been decent climbers, and very often not French, let alone Font locals. I have consistently ignored them, bacause I was not using chalk irresponsibly, and they have no more right to tell me to stop using chalk than I have to tell them to stop using pof (which I would not do). I have of course heartily slagged off climbers (behind their backs) who have been poffing the living crap out of a slab which is currently in good nick at a more esoteric venue. I don't give a monkey's if the problem's already utterly trashed though.

I think, I don't know, that pof accelerates the process by which problems become unclimbable/harder/less fun. But it may actually help preserve footholds, I don't know. And it's not my place to tell anyone not to use it. But telling people not to use chalk (responsibly) is just a way to create a bit of aggro and have absolutely no other effect.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


That's the point though. If these guys are correct that chalk ruins the friction( & there's a very large body of experience behind it) then you're actually preventing yourself from ticking the problem & a lot of other people (which is why they get so annoyed).

As to seeing people using chalk I'll reiterate the argument
- once some selfish tw*t has chalked a problem the fricton is buggered!
Then & only then chalk may help (because you can't bugger the friction further)

In reply to i.munro:

So you're saying we should use neither pof nor chalk, as both damage the rock? You may think chalk is worse, but I will only believe this when there is some sort of consensus, not just your assertion.

People who climb with chalk in Font are not selfishly ruining otherwise pristine problems for everyone else, I'm afraid that idea is just complete rubbish. All of the problems we're talking about, the ones people actually climb, have all had their fair share of both pof and chalk because both are used in abundance in Font. It is the cumulative action of all climbers that damages the rock, not selfish individuals (apart from chipping of course).

You personally think it would be nicer to climb less difficult stuff and keep the rock in better nick. OK, it's a fair, if idealistic point. This is still asking climbers to fail on stuff they could climb with pof/chalk, which they're never going to do. As climbers generally, we have decided by consensus that we'll knacker the rock by using these climbing aids - I'm sorry, but you're going to have to get used to it (until you develop an entire area yourself and can 'set the ethic' to suit your own minority, but admirable view).

In reply to i.munro:

ok mec

try this.

warm up properly. you should feel warm in your t-shirt even if it just 10° celsius.
stop climbing and wear your duvet so that you don't cool off. You will rest for 2 minutes before a serious attempt

chalk every 30 seconds you right hand during this rest.

just before the attempt, take a last chalk and blow the excess off, or, even better, rub your right hand against your right leg. A firm slap on your own ass can be cool as well. (my own climbing pants are always white from the knees up)


now, tell me if you notice a difference between the friction of your right hand and the friction of the left...



used correctly, it does help (and does a damage that's mostly reversible).
pof helps as well, if not people wouldn't have even started. But there are more concerns on the reversability. Still, I will do the try with some pebbles...

http://profiles.bleau.info/jo.montchausse/
http://bleau.info/piat/2230-2063.html


whoops, I see chalkbags!!!
Uh, what? You say they are french? And even Bleausards? And even...
(did not try with younger climbers because it's too easy)

In reply to ghisino:

When you do the thing with the pebbles, be sure and stand on each one a set number of times each day in your rock shoes.

In reply to ghisino:



Ok I will. If you will try this.
Find a problem that is, as far as possible chalk free ( I suggest only an unpopular problem in an unpopular area after a prolonged spell of rain will give you much chance).
Warm up.

Dry hands thoroughly with a clean dry towel. A splash of liquid alcohol (ethanol) helps but isn't essential just before climbing.
Get a feel for the friction on your problem (both hands & feet).

Now try again with chalk.
The difference is impossible to miss.

You have to do it in this order, obviously, Clean hands won't help if there's already chalk on the rock.

In reply to ghisino:

Oh & when you've tried that then try using chalk the way 90% of people actually use it (rather than the way you describe)
Take handfuls & pour it on all the holds including footholds. Then get as much on your hands as you can, now try the same problem again.

In reply to i.munro:

I'll try, we are planning to brush something...you'd be surprised that even in a very popular area like cuvier it is possible to just look on the side of a trail and find interesting shapes covered in moss...

In reply to i.munro: I have no idea why you believe that 90% of people use chalk the way you describe. Why would they, it doesn't help them climb a problem? I have seen evidence of this behaviour in font and elsewhere, but it's very occasional not usual. Holds protected from the rain do become irrepairably chalk-caked though, which makes me wish people would brush them more often.

In reply to tony92:

What is 'pof'? I thought it was French slang for loose chalk.

In reply to i.munro:


S. MARGETTS and I. FOWLER Journal of Sports Sciences, 2001, 19, 427-432 suggests that chalk decreases friction on sandstone, grantie and slate, I haven't looked very hard for more papers but I'm sure they are there.

"The results showed that chalk decreased the coefficient of friction. Sandstone was found to be less slippery than granite and slate. Finally, water had no significant effect on the coefficient of friction. The counter-intuitive effect of chalk appears to be caused by two independent factors. First, magnesium carbonate dries the skin, decreasing its compliance and hence reducing the coefficient of friction. Secondly, magnesium carbonate creates a slippery granular layer. We conclude that, to improve the coefficient of friction in rock climbing, an effort should be made to remove all particles of chalk; alternative methods for drying the fingers are preferable."

In reply to Owain Young:

it is pine rosin, slightly processed to dry it up and then crushed.
it basically has adhesive properties.

It is commonly available as "rosin" or "greek peech" or "colophane" (french). It is used sometimes in athletics and gymnastics, in combination or in place of chalk. Pole vault who prefer rosin apparently report better grip, but a need more frequent care of their pole because of the rosin deposit.

For climbing purposes put in a cloth, firmly closed to form a ball, and tapped directly on holds and footholds, probably with the purpose of using the least possible amount. Even in big pof days, it was advised not to put it directly on your hands and/or use it in direct powder form

the big issue with pof, and the reason why even in the area where it was always used it is less and less popular, to the point of being virtually disappeared among the new generations, is that the adhesive powder sticks to the rock and builds a hard deposit (this is very easily verifiable on any support. Just try rosin on your hangboard for a few weeks and see). This deposit, contrary to chalk, will not be removed with a soft brush. It would require a tough metal brush that is likely to damage the rock underneath. Or a chemical solvant.

it is also easy to verify that once the deposit is there, you feel the urge to use more and more pof : the deposit is not adhesive forevever, and after some time it just feels like a resinous plastic, that is indeed quite slippery.

The controversial point is whether this deposit will eventually become polished and glassy more quickly than the actual rock, and if some "suspect" polish on some problems is partially a result of pof, or simply of many many tries.
Word of mouth, including some bleausards aged towards their 50s, and the vast majority of climbers from any area in france excluding bleau and annot, says pof does accelerate polish, and that pof fills the pores and irregularities of the rock surface in an irreparable way, even worse than chalk.
Others swear this does not happen and argue that anyway, sun and natural aging will eventually loosen the adhesive bound and the deposit will fall off the rock.

the only good point about pof is that it is not as visually disturbing as chalk, though not being totally transparent.
But, in an area where people use chalk as well, pof will pick up the white powder and glue it to the rock surface.
THe pof+chalk combination gets the worst of both worlds, this is quite established.

In reply to petellis:

in fact on riverbed stone I use no chalk at all, carefully washed and slightly moist skin works better. try it!


but, friction coefficient is not everything in the skin-hold interaction, as it is not in the rubber-foothold (in fact, friction-oriented rubber compounds like the new vibram XSgrip got some negative feedback from people saying that "it is too soft, and this causes it to roll off small sharp features")

also, that famous study has some arguable points :
a) they used dead hands and most of all, water instead of actual moisture. human perspiration is a mix of water, salts, and skin oils. My hands are feeling oily right now.
b)we do not know how much they chalked the hands. It is evident to anyone who tried that a hand completely covered in a thick layer of white powder is counter-productive, we do not need a study to tell us...if you chalk without wiping the excess off, I agree that it can be worse than with no chalking!

ah
one thing that should also be banned from outdoors use.

some (not all) liquid chalk formulas include creamy, greasy substances like glyceryne, essential oils, etc.
while really nice for your skin, they might stay on the rock surface and make the holds feel greasier, common sense say.
Would you climb after putting sunscreen on, without washing your hands?

read the ingredients carefully and leave "cosmetic" liquid chalks for indoors only use.

In reply to tony92:

http://bleau.info/cleanup/magnesium.html

In reply to ghisino:

You are speaking the most sense on this subject I think I've ever read on here. Good on you. I hope it gets through to some other people.

In reply to ghisino:

I'm not a great chalk fan myself, you don't have to try to convince me.


Aye, I thought about all those things as i was posting. The fact is that counter to that paper using chalk often feels like its improving the friction. The point of chalk isn't to coat the rock, its to remove sweat from the hands.

See hard grit for those clips of hard climbers dipping hands into chalk bags whilst on hands off rests way above dodgy gear and dramatically blowing the excess chalk from their hands - very flashy! I watched that after my first day's climbing and thought it was way cool!

In reply to highrepute:

this is a recent picture of the boss of that website

http://bleau.info/images/jos.leenen/monotoit01.jpg

I see no pof cloth, just a big beefy chalkbag.

In reply to ghisino:



So what mechanism do you suggest is working here that allows a thin layer of powder to increase the friction while a thick layer decreases it?

Is it not more likely that a thin layer decreases the friction a little while a thick layer decreases it a lot?

Nobody (including this paper) is arguing that cleaning/drying hands is not a good thing & nobody is arguing that chalk isn't one method of doing that.
Chalk may even be (possibly) a better method of drying the hands than others.
The conclusion of the paper (& my experience) is that if any chalk remains on the hands after drying them this will cause some loss of friction.
Therefore alternative methods of drying the hands that do not suffer this drawback would work better.

You seem to have grasped this as you make some attempt to remove chalk before climbing (judging by your advice).

What we agree on is that using chalk as the majority of climbers now do
(Getting as much on the hands as they can) is not a performance aid but makes things harder, not only for the (mis) user but for everyone who has the bad luck to have to follow him.

In reply to i.munro:

you just need a good brush and a pole, which I guess are in the standard bouldering equipement these days?

(I agree that would be anyway unpleasant for the circuit climber who doesn't necessairily want to brush each hold to perfection on his 60 daily boulders...)

anyway. read somewhere that isopropyl alcohol might help brushing pof residue (and maybe rubber bits?) off footholds without damaging the rock.

do you confirm? If yes, isopropyl alcohol will take a place in my bag, next to the brush(es)

and for the drying matter, I am curious to try this antiperspirant thing called "tite grip"

some who tried report it as "almost cheating" and apparently no harmful polishing-adhesive substances

In reply to i.munro: I still don't know why you keep asserting that the majority of climbers shoot themselves in the foot by smothering everything in chalk. Anyone trying to climb something at their limit will always brush holds to get rid of excess chalk, because that is how you get the best grip. I know a few people mistakenly do this caking/smothering business, but since it doesn't help you tick problems, it remains a minority pursuit!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I can only assume that we climb in completely different places.
Have you been to Bleau?

In reply to i.munro:

I've been to Font a lot. And plenty of other places. This is not how the majority of climbers behave. I've seen maybe a handful of occasions of people applying chalk to holds the way you describe, and more applying pof. I see most other people enthusiastically brushing and boffing holds clean. Climbers do this because they know a clean hold is best.

Not to say there isn't too much chalk and/or pof on many problems with perma-dry holds.

It is good to keep an open mind.

In reply to petellis:
But Konstantin Fuss at the Institute of Bioengineering, Nayang Technical University, Singapore showed in extensive instrumented tests on holds with competition climbers that powder chalk is superior to liquid chalk and a dry hand or wet hand on a clean hold. The Engineering of Sport 6

In reply to jimtitt:

That's an interesting paper.
I found it really confusing, they seem to have found the highest coefficient of friction using powdered chalk on a clean hold.

& the lowest (lower than wet hands) using powdered chalk on a 'chalked' hold.

Then they conclude that this constitutes a disdavantage for the climber who goes first in a competition? Surely it would constitute a huge advantage.

Can anybody clarifY?

In reply to i.munro:


I've read it. it looks more like a resume than the actual paper you would find in the (expensive) printed book...


anyway they found that non-chalked dry hand on chalked hold works similarly to chalked hand on pristine clean hold.
I think their conclusion is that if you find chalked holds you don't have to start chalking midway thru the route, and that is an advantage.

I feel they have been a bit naive in presenting this as a general result.
Common climbing sense say that in general this can be true on holds with good texture and not-too-much chalk. Pristine clean, new or freshly washed plastic holds often feel like they need that first layer.

Also, they "forgot" that the climber starting next does not have dry hands thruout the whole comp, so he would need to chalk up on a chalked hold...loosing any possible advantage.

anyway it seems a good study in the sense that leta alone the conclusions, they provide much detail and they used a real-life setting.


I found most interesting the diagram of forces applied by experienced and less experienced climbers on the same hold...it shows how the more experienced climber applies a lower pressure, he/she focuses on the "good" part of the hold and is much more confident in pulling the hold outwards, using the available friction to the limit.
Obvious stuff, but to see it on such a beautiful graph is pure poetry for a climbing-engineer-PhD student

In reply to ghisino:

I'd have to take exception to their conclusion that 'chalk is not a myth' as well.
According to their figures, if the holds are already chalked (which is the situation everybody in bouldering creates for themselves) then using chalk on the hands reduces the friction to below that which you would get with wet hands on a clean hold.

I think a more work is needed there.