UKC

I'm just working through an old new routes book from Pete's Eats; one of the 1988 volumes.

In it I can see some controversial mention of a route between Great Wall and Indian Face and mention of 6 manufactured runner placements and 3 chipped holds.

I'm sure this route is not Face Mecca, Womb Bits or Rite of Spring, so what route caused this controversy? Anyone know?

Phil

I think the idea is that THE line on the face hasn't been climbed yet - Indian Face cops out of the "true" line. John Redhead attempted the line, but had to place a bolt to lower off (he called the line "Tormented Ejaculation".

There has also been a long history of altering routes for improving holds or protection, although this is (mostly) before the Brown era.

In reply to NickD:

Why, when you obviously know nothing about the subject, do you come on here and start spouting stuff like this as if it were fact?

In reply to Tyler:

Look at this amazing post.

Since you evidently know better than I do, perhaps you'd like to explain.

In reply to NickD:

I'd hardly call Indian Face a cop out - explain.

In reply to NickD: I thought Tormented Ejaculation eventually became Masters Wall when Moffatt abbed down and chopped the bolt Redhead placed? Suppose the route technically still exists, but the bolt to mark its finishing point isn't there any more

In reply to jonny2vests:

"Cop out" might not be the best phrase. I was told by someone closely associated with climbing on this wall that there is a "true" line on this section of the wall. IF is a mind-bendingly impressive climb, but the thinking is that it doesn't follow the line all of the way.

As a caveat, I should say that I have climbed IF exactly as many times as anyone else in this thread.

In reply to chrisprescott:

Can I just say that THIS ISN'T WHAT THE BOOK IS SAYING. These routes already existed. This is a different route.

Phil

In reply to chrisprescott:

Yes. Indian Face also goes there and continues in the line.

In reply to phil kelly: Didn't Dawes accuse Redhead of chipping out gear placements on Indian Face, could be something to do with that maybe?

In reply to NickD:

What always puzzled me about that story is why Redhead didn't finish it seeing as he went to all that trouble to get bomber gear.

In reply to chrisprescott:

The page says 'Between Indian Face and Great Wall' so can't be this. It is written in Johnny's handwriting though.

In reply to phil kelly:

Why not contact him direct? Saw him just before the last peak BMC meeting playing on a new line and he seemed keen to sort stuff like this out (with his book imminent).

In reply to Offwidth:

Just thought the masses may know.

Plus, I was trying to figure out why someone had writted "I chipped this. P.Kelly" followed by my old address!

In reply to phil kelly:

A Midsummer Nights Dream's first pitch goes to the right of Great Wall to the latter's stance. Climbed in 1973 by Ed Ward Drummond, I seem to recall that there was some controversy relating to this ascent at the time.

In reply to jonny2vests:

My understanding of the sequence of events is...
1. Redhead tries the IF line but has various falls and scary lower offs.
2. He places a bolt at the top of where he's led to, fully intending to use that as pro for the moves up and left (now IF).
3. I think Redhead then got injured.
4. In the meantime Jerry comes along, chops the bolt and does Master's Wall.
5. When fit again, Redhead repeats Master's Wall and decides that it would not be justifiable to replace the bolt (would spoil Master's Wall) and so has to leave the IF line.
6. Dawes comes along (a few years later) and does IF.

Note that the above is not from personal knowledge but from the "news" at the time and subsequently, so if anybody knows better then do correct this. I think it's all detailed in Extreme Rock as well.

In reply to Michael Hood:
I seem to remember Redhead writing in one of the mags that the line he envisaged still hadn't been climbed. I'm pretty sure that this statement was (inter alia) in his response to the accusation that he'd taken a hammer to remove that flake from IF (i.e. after the FA) but I might be wrong and it might have been after Moffat did MW.

P.S. How quaint it seems for these disputes to be carried out in the letters pages of magazines, in slow motion and and with a whole month between each installment

In reply to phil kelly:

There was also a route called West Indian Face which I recall was the one with alledged chipped placements.

In reply to Tyler:

Hmmmm, who did West Indian Face?

The drawing seems to suggest the runners and chippings were on the top half of the route.

In reply to phil kelly: didnt redhead go up to check the peg and the flake just came away, and thus he painted an indians face on the scar.

In reply to phil kelly:


Dawes, I think.

In reply to metal arms:

Pretty sure he wouldn't write about chipping his own route.

In reply to phil kelly:

Early one morning in June '94 or '95, I passed John Redhead coming down the path from Cloggy as we were on our way up. Later that day I did Great Wall and noticed a fixed belay a little to the right of where you finish that route. It made a convenient abseil point. On the way down, there was a line of cleaned and chalked holds. It looked like wild, like Manic Strain with no gear. As far as I'm aware this line has not yet been climbed.

In reply to phil kelly: Pretty sure this is the West Indian Face, done after abbing down the rough line of IF after the incident with the flake and the painting, and discovering chipped holds and runners. Have you seen the new Stone Monkey DVD with Dawes climbing on Great Wall? I think that this is what he is climbing on that.

In reply to phil kelly: If its May 88 Mr Dawes and Mr Dixon linked AMND to IF and called it West Indian Face.
All the best
Rob

In reply to phil kelly:
I concur with the mighty grimes.
GH

In reply to Graham Hoey: And i agree with Graham

In reply to Michael Hood:

Thanks. I have Extreme Rock, but piecing it together from just that isn't possible.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Does anyone have a topo to this wall? Or could someone make one? Would make it a lot easier. I know it's in the definitive cloggy guide, but I no longer have this.

In reply to phil kelly: I believe that is Midsummer nights dream is it not??

In reply to F Manko:

http://www.wikitopo.com/crag.php?cragId=7

In reply to boothy: Check out Nick's Cloggy guide about all this.

His final judgement is left to Johnny:

"West Indian Face is best forgotten."

In reply to Niall Grimes: Ok so I've re-read the entry (yes it was May 88) and it's actually Johnny's claim for West Indian Face

it was an interesting way to start the description which threw me a bit.

Interestingly though his fial comment is that it makes IF easier due to additional and good gear.

Thexquestions I now have are:

why did JD not use these same placements for IF?

And

why did he decide to excavate them for WIF?

And

how hard would WIF have been sans manufactured placements?

Oh and....

Who said I chipped it ? (I have my suspicions, Aardvak)

phil

In reply to phil kelly:

These placement(s) appeared after he had done IF. He did not chip the placement(s). I believe one placement was particularly useful. Johnny filled in the placement after he had used it on the lead of WIF.

My understanding is that as it now stands, WIF is as least as hard as IF.

Cheers
Graham

In reply to Graham Hoey:

I've read all of this thread and it still isn't clear what happened here.

In what way was the gear improved after JD's ascent?
was it carved out of blank rock?
Who improved it?

In reply to F Manko:

Nut slots appeared on the line and on IF. If I remember correctly they appeared to be improved (raked out?) seams which Johnny claimed couldn't originally take a decent nut. One nut in particular was very good, and Johnny filled in this slot. Apparently his work was so good that Neil Gresham and Nick Dixon couldn't spot where the slot had been when they inspecetd IF prior to their ascents.
As to who did it, I'd need a good libel lawyer before letting you know who was the chief suspect at the time!
Cheers
Graham

In reply to Graham Hoey:

Although I surmise it wouldn't take the brains of a Chinese Archbishop to take an educated guess.

In reply to Graham Hoey:

>My understanding is that as it now stands, WIF is as least as hard as IF.

Really? At least you've got the AMSND gear, or is that too low and/or too rusty to do you any good?

jcm

In reply to phil kelly:
The petes eats book won't be lying you must have done the chipping, shame on you.