UKC

Idwal Slabs (aka Cwm Idwal)

Had a minor epic today that took the tarnish of how good the quality of route was. Climbed Hope today. My partner is a relative novice and having done 6/7 multipitch last summer we thought Hope would be a good route to dust off the cobwebs this year. I'm a reasonably experienced climber but I have to say the nightmare that was finishing the route and trying to descent is not one I'd care to repeat frequently. It was slippy and wet today and the constant short-roping/ body belaying etc to get my increasingly anxious partner down was a real pain. it took us longer than the route itself.
It can't be just me who thinks this process takes the shine off some great routes

In reply to Jackspratt:

You can ab off if you have half ropes

In reply to trouserburp:

Yeah that's the next lesson for my partner her not being able to ab is starting to catch up with us.

In reply to Jackspratt:

And your point is?

You chose to take a novice up a route on a mountain crag that - as every guidebook makes abundantly clear - has a tricky and complicated descent. In winter. And you're surprised and indignant that this situation requires a certain amount of mountaineering experience and nous?

In reply to AlanLittle:

wasn't making a point just sharing an experience,
and we were there last summer and it was fine just the weather complicated it this time.

In reply to Jackspratt:

What; getting down again?
Life can be a real bitch sometimes, cant it?

In reply to Jackspratt:

You're right that your partner not being able to ab on a mountain route is a problem that needs fixing! You can ab the last bit - instead of downclimbing, don't traverse round that last little bit and ab off the obvious rock. Then the rest is a fairly benign scramble.

In reply to Jackspratt:


Probably not but many us think it adds a lot more shine to them.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Next lesson for her is Abseiling I've been meaning to for a while but everytime I think about doing it I remember we could just go climbing instead, just been a bit selfish!

In reply to Jackspratt:

Surely being able to abseil would be a prerequisite for doing multi pitch climbing?
How would you retreat if the the weather turned or the climbing got too difficult?

In reply to Jackspratt:

Descent from Idwal Slabs can be difficult, tho eased by a 30/40m abseil into the gully (if you can locate the block; careful not to jam the rope)
Next time you visit, consider continuing to ascend (scrambling,100m + ascent, some trickyish moves - better with rock shoes on) until you reach a broad shoulder (change footwear now) (further scrambling up Seniors Ridge available) leading across & down into Cwm Cneifion. Walk out left & down past Sub-Cneifion Rib (another nice meandering classic) or do Cneifion Arete & descend Gribin.

In reply to Jackspratt:

Things happen, you've been given a small warning by the mountains, luckily you remained intact, learn a lesson from it and learn your partner how to deal with things when they go tits up, remember you both need to be able to deal with situations if they arise. Enjoy your climbing, stay safe.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

It's not 30/40 m because I've done it several times on a 50m single with rope to spare maybe 20?

Jackspratt: I've taught to abseil at Little Tryfan, the hollow near the left is a nice place to set up an anchor/backup rope and feels benign because of the angle. You can always then run round the corner and spend the rest of the day at Milestone Buttress, or up Tryfan, other Ogwen days are available

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

And what a lovely day we had!

In reply to Jackspratt:
It can feel strange that the descent is often harder/scarier/more unprotected than what you've just climbed up.
There's more than one crag where getting off can cause more problems than the climb itself. Especially if, like me, you only climb in the lower grades.
Should you survive though, it's these epics than make you a good, all round climber.
Sod abseiling, it's bloody dangerous.
All one's eggs in one basket, European death knot, Prussik (sp) or no Prussik backup, knot in end of rope, etc dangerous!
When was the last time you heard of someone dying downclimbing?

In reply to Jackspratt:

All part of the adventure surely?

In reply to Jackspratt:


Why didn't you lower her down? The tricky bit really is not that long. Then you could have quickly down climbed to join her.

In reply to Lion Bakes:

Agreed. Those talking about needing to know how to abseil before attempting multipitch are talking bollocks of course. I have however lowered nervous people off on numerous occasions when it's damp/dank.

In reply to baron:

The tragic early death of Rachel Farmer is the one that springs to my mind. She was already hugely impressive so young, probably would have gone on to do some truly great things.

In reply to Jackspratt:

It's easy to get complacent about Cwm Idwal given the easy access and amenable climbing. But it is a Uk mountain venue not a roadside crag and needs to be treated as such. Anyway no harm done so chalk it up as type 2 fun and do what everyone else does - bore everyone at the pub with the story

In reply to baron:


That's rather a silly comment. There have been lots of accidents involving people walking off or down climbing from crags.

In reply to Jackspratt:

Glad you were both OK. I've always had to take more care on that bad bit of the descent than on the routes on the slabs themselves (not that I don't take care on them either; there's always a feeling you could slip to your doom).



This is a potential killer. Both people get increasingly knackered, anxiety levels stay high for a considerable time, decision-making can get impaired with constant stress, sometimes, maybe with safety in sight, people can drop their guard - with dire consequences.

If the descent takes you longer than the route, then so be it. If it takes you twice as long, then so be it. Don't rush. Take things step by step. Try and 'regroup'/'regather' yourselves, maybe stop and have a cup of coffee and a sandwich to break up the constant tension. The constant tension is your worst enemy.

And your second needs to learn to ab safely.

Anyway, enough of all that. You were both OK and it was a great learning experience. The thing to do always is analyse the experience afterwards, reflect on it, take out the lessons and learn 'em - so next time round, you're in a far stronger position.

Good luck!

Mick

In reply to deepsoup:
I'd forgotten about her - quite a while ago now.
Ironic (and tragic) to die walking off from what's basically a sports crag.

In reply to GrahamD:


Yes, it's one of those places that's fine in good summer conditions, but it is on the side of a big mountain. One problem is that the alternative way off left (above and left of the Continuation Wall, into Nameless Cwm) is not entirely straightforward either ... to put it mildly. Also, the option that connects with Senior's Ridge. I once got completely lost up there on some very steep and nasty heathery terrain before managing to escape leftwards into the Nameless Cwm.

In reply to Jackspratt:

As buxtoncoffeelover says its best to keep the ropes on and go up to cwn cneifion... safer and quicker and avoids the common queues. Most of us have been there on our first trip...so all the dislikes are a sad indictment on UKC friendliness.

In reply to Offwidth:

Agree with you about the excessive dislikes.
Since it was only a short distance to easy ground I personally wouldn't have gone up into Cwm Cneifion as I think it would have involved more roped scrambling and much more time for the descent.
One can avoid the more obvious smooth rocks on the descent by downclimbing the steeper rock just on the right (facing in).....I'd quickly solo down and up using the spiky jugs, so that I could give confidence and exact advice, then toprope the other person down (15m?). Alternatively I'd lower them the few metres to easy ground as previously suggested. This would depend on how I judged they would deal with either method (and admittedly some prior knowledge on my part). After this I would follow the long easy diagonal path down to Llyn Idwal. The other ways, especially keeping close to the east wall of the slabs. are harder.
I think your question was really about difficult descents generally and I suppose realistic study of a guidebook, and partner learning to ab would help there.
I've been there too...Ordinary Route on Idwal, Slanting Buttress on Lliwedd, Western Gully on Chair Ladder with a nervous non-climber (getting off the latter two in the dark) and I'm still married to her 30+ years later.

In reply to oldie:
I'd carry a sack with a beginner so a return to the base wasn't required and go up another route if time and fitness allowed (Cneifon Arete is an excellent follow on) or take the good path out of the cwm back to the road. The queues for the descent seem increasingly common on weekends and getting past them is difficult. I only bother with that descent these days if its quiet.. so many good routes above and then above and then right and above again. Up to 12 dislikes now... shameful really.

In reply to Jackspratt:

In a word: no - all part of the multi-pitch mountain experience.

In reply to Jackspratt:

If it makes you feel better, i got way in over my head on Hope on a uni trip to Idwal when I first started climbing. Started a bit late, grey day with showers forecast in afternoon, hadn't got headtorches...The inevitable happened and it absolutely pissed it down with 2 pitches to go. Should have abbed off and left gear; instead naïvely opted to climb increasingly grim and wet slab. Finished in dark soaking wet and freezing cold. No one had headtorches as mentioned, and no one had been to the crag before so got hopelessly lost trying to find the way off. After nearly dying multiple times we had to call mountain rescue to come and get us! Hugely embarrassing but these things happen, lessons were learnt and it was a good early reminder to never take mountain routes lightly!

UKC is sadly not yet a good forum for examining issues like this cause people jump in to flame instead of thinking about all the mistakes they made when they were a beginner. God knows I've made enough of them. Don't worry, have a day learning to abseil and leave loads more time than you think you need in future!

In reply to spidermonkey09:


Totally agree. I look back at my mistakes and shudder with horror. Back then, even if people were aware of mistakes, they weren't discussed to elicit the learning points.

And we're all learning - it never stops.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:


Absolutely right, Mick. And I've yet to meet a climber [myself included] who hasn't had a right epic at some point.

In reply to everyone:

Easy folks - wind those necks in. It's not like he wanted the whole thing bolting. He said he made a mistake and related an experience. He knows what to do to avoid a repeat.

Enough feeding frenzy.

In reply to JJL:


"Feeding frenzy"?

Some the advice is slightly robust but I can see little reason to get offended on someone elses behalf.

In reply to JJL:
19 dislikes in contrast to the words and reality about how we all made similar mistakes... when does this become visual vandalism like tagging. For goodness sake UKC get rid of them. We do have the wit to like a post that is pointing out idiotic argument, so they just are not needed and look increasingly embarrassing. The mods dumped my xmas survey in the pub so the data died which showed as many bad uses as good and no real statistical significance outside posts from the Zimp). Maybe I need to do one every few weeks to keep proving the point... dislikes simply do not beneficially expose poor posters, like trolls (unless they are obvious anyway or odd kids getting the playground bully treatment ) they do encourage tit for tat and other forms of unhelpfuk negativity. JimTitt even got them on a gear safety advice post ffs.

In reply to Offwidth:


Do youeven know what the 19 dislikes were motivated by or which part of the post they were in response to.

Dislikes are no more the problem than the people that appear to go out of their way to be offended by them.

In reply to Jackspratt:

I agree that people are too quick to flame but the way the OP was worded in this case didn't help. Take away the last line and I'll wager the reception would have been much more positive. It's not a UKC thing it's just an internet discussion thing where the lack of inflection, dependence solely on the written word and an inability to quickly correct or reword statements leads to differing interpretations and misunderstandings.

In reply to Jackspratt:
I shouldn't be too hard on yourselves. I was on the Slabs with a group of us last year. There was loads of experience and the grades were well in hand. We convened at the top of the routes for a sandwich and to take in the sun. Thankfully we all remained tied on, as a very competent member of our party had her feet go from beneath her on some grit and badly banged her backside and was only prevented from going over the edge by someone grabbing the rope. We then made our way up and over, guided by the arrow scratches to the descent. We were all happy to put a rope on for the downclimb into the gully. Another member of our group who works at height had become gripped as we scrambled across to the descent and actually fell off the downclimb, fortunately with a top rope. He refused to believe that we had taken one of the orthodox ways off although he is not one for consulting the guide books. It certainly took the shine off his day. You got you and your partner down safely and can put it in your basket of experience.

In reply to DaveHK:

That's fair comment. Not a UKC specific thing I fully agree.

In reply to AlanLittle:


When did the decent from the top of the slabs become a blackspot?

Is this a recent development due to changes in the terrain - polished/fragile rock due to traffic?

We've all made errors and had unnecessary epics, but having one on the decent from the Idwal Slabs is not something I'd openly admit to on a public forum

In reply to NigeR:

'Black spot' is perhaps a bit strong, but it's a notorious 'bad step' especially for novice parties, as so many on the Slabs tend to be. It's intimidating rather than difficult, but as fewer climbers these days have a background in walking and scrambling they are often not prepared for it. Climbing indoors or on single-pitch crags doesn't really equip you for that sort of terrain.

I think what prompted the criticism of the OP was that the difficult descent is well known and well flagged-up, and his experience is just one that many others have experienced as well. He's learned lessons from it, which is what epics are for.

Once you've finished a climb itself then rock shoes are a liability, especially on wet rock or dry grass. I often take approach shoes with me on a route like that, it makes the descent easier and more comfortable.

In reply to timjones:


I'm not being offended on anyone's behalf. But the core advice - read the guide; learn to abseil - was already well covered in the first few posts without another 30 people jumping in to repeat the points.

I've had my share of epics. Most have been avoidable had I had more experience or applied what I did have better.

In reply to Howard J:


Call me old fashioned, but people without the requisite level of skill and experience (especially on multi-pitch in a mountain environment), as well as detailed knowledge of the route - including decent - shouldn't be taking novices out on it in the first place.

In reply to JJL:


Do you always read the whole threaf before replying to a post?

I have to confess that I sometimes don't.

In reply to NigeR:
It was always a bit of a frightener for novices, as I can confirm from having done it with novices. But I was shocked at how poished & nasty it had become when I was last on it a couple of years ago, having previously last been on it I think some time in the 80s.

In reply to Jackspratt:


Weather has a way of doing that. I had a similarly soggy experience getting 10 or so relative novices and a few others down many years ago in terrible weather behind another uni group of similar size having some technical difficulties. All part of the fun of a day out in the hills.
jk

In reply to timjones:

I am completely perplexed as to what the dislikes are possibly about... as a highly experienced climber who has introduced countless novices on the slabs the OP's post seems reasonable to me (unlike some replies that imply incompetence on their part or get annoyed that he should be raising a very real problem, for a first time experienced climbing visitor, with a novice, facing the slabs descent).

We were 'sold' that many dislikes (20 is a huge number for UKC on such a climbing post) indicates a very poor post or a troll. where exactly??? My view is it indicates a growth of childish clicking with often no logical explanation possible and as such shows further evidence the dislike button needs to go. I'm campaigning on this because any research always showed dislike buttons are a bad idea for a forum (with Facebook dumping the proposal as a result) and better ways of expressing disagreement exist (like UKB negative karma: attributed and reasoned), yet in good post-truth fashion we soldier on regardless of the evidence.

UKC forum traffic is not exactly thriving: look at the posting numbers over the years, despite more things than ever to talk about (the increasing UKC news and features and burgeoning logbooks). Do you really think such behaviour is an open and friendly encouragement of newish posters? If I was the OP I'd be likely thinking sod those snobs I'll go elsewhere.

In reply to Offwidth:

I wonder whether some people are imagining a subtext of "we need to install bolts / abseil points / metal rungs / stepladders to make this terrible death trap safe for beginners" which isn't really there in the OP?

In reply to Offwidth:


I'd you don't know what they are for how can you take issue with then?

Is it somehow wrong to ecress dislike for the fact that someone had an experience that took the shine off their day?

It would seem rather perverse to like it.

In reply to Jackspratt:
The descent was a good deal easier, even in the wet, back in the 80s. Mind you, I was at school then so was indestructible. I avoid it as a descent now: even when dry the polish given by those squintillions of feet makes it unappealing.

Go up, as has been suggested. If your partner is ok with V Diff you won't need the rope and even when it's chucking it down Cwm Cneifion is a lovely place - only just around the corner but has a really remote air. Make a fair weather recce of that way off.

The normal Slabs descent is much more fun if you do it in reverse... as do a lot of guided (& roped) scrambling parties.

D

Edit: "... if you do it in reverse...". As a scrambling ascent I mean.

In reply to NigeR:


I agree 100% with that.

In reply to Jackspratt:

Been there and lowered off my novice partner down that horrid gully. She can abseil now!! Glad you and you're partner are okay. All part of climbing life's rich tapestry and all that. I'd remembered the descent gully as easy - but it isn't; not at all for a novice climber. My mistake. An ab date with Little Tryfan followed.
Cheers.

In reply to Jackspratt:

Well you are alive to tell the tale and now you know what to work on next! All part of the adventure of mountain crags.

In reply to timjones:

Silly me, all those people were just fumbling to express supportiveness. Its like a glaswegian kiss being a friendly male bonding ritual.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

The OP is experienced, his novice has done quite a few mulitpitch climbs and Hope is super classic VD with a freindly reputation and you serious think its too risky a prospect for them to tackle without detailed knowledge??

I'd hardly say you are both old fashioned, as in the old days such risks were standard with even absolute beginners and using much less protection (and less guidebook information and no internet beta). There is an old something that comes to mind but its a bit sexist in a modern context.

In reply to Offwidth:


Well plainly it was, hence the OP.

In reply to NigeR:

Plainly was what? He described an unpleasant descent done slowly and carefully... it often can be like this in winter. What exactly in this made it too risky for him to tackle?

In reply to Offwidth:


Have you considered just ignoring them?

In reply to Offwidth:

You seem obsessed by this! If you don't like them, just ignore them. In this case they probably relate to the line "It can't be just me who thinks this process takes the shine off some great routes" which is getting close to a suggestion of a bolted lower-off or similar (probably not intended that way by the OP, but given the history here it is entirely understandable people are sensitive to such implications.)

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
What good comes of ignoring those tagging the walls of my local kids playground and a few occasionally shitting on the slide and in the sandpit. The research indicated that forum dislike functions are potentially socially corrosive and commercially damaging. So since so many were telling me dislikes were working properly (highlighting those trolls and bad posts), I investigated, looking at every post in the recent topics forum one lunchtime and lo, the UKC profile was just as problematic as I predicted. For every sensible looking set of dislikes there was an almost unexplainable set based on disliking calmly presented facts, like the Jim Titt set (unexplainable other than childish tantrum of those making bad posts before, that he corrected, lashing out). The only mass dislikes were of 'joke' responses to dislike complaints (barely funny the first time) or for the zimp ...which to me seemed excessive and so looked like bullying (probably savas will do as a target now he is back). A dislike is a crude action that normally tells us almost nothing as to the reasons why it was used. Do a survey yourself....It simply isn't highlighting bad posts. It is probably being used with bullying intent. It adds spite to what should be a welcoming community. As a community we should be ashamed the OP has one of the most disliked straight climbing posts on the site.

In reply to Offwidth:


It's not so much the guy's lack of detailed knowledge of the route as such. It's more to do with his obvious poor judgement, decision making and leadership. The fact that he seemed to expect dry summer conditions on a big mountain crag in the middle of February and that he was taken completely by surprise by a descent route that is notoriously awkward. On those grounds I don't think this guy should be taking novices up multi pitch climbs on big mountain crags. It may be a V Diff with a "friendly reputation" but it is still very easy for novices to get into serious trouble on such routes without proper leadership.

In reply to Offwidth:


To paraphrase him, he describes a "nightmare of a decent, and not one he'd wish too repeat", and goes on to say it was wet and slippy.

No kidding, the decent off a mountain crag in North Wales in February was wet and slippy!

When you are the experienced climber or 'guide', it is your responsibility to ensure your novice partner doesn't have an epic.

It only takes a few minutes on Google to gather all relevant information regarding a route you haven't done before, so in all honesty there's no excuse for an 'experienced' climber to get caught out by this decent.

Personally I've never understood the fuss regarding the decent off the slabs.

Done it many times in all conditions, and taken novice climbers down it too.

My first time in 69', aged 12, as my third ever outing (previous 2 being Windgather and Castle Naze, so first multi-pitch, and first mountain route) with school, as a rope of 3, in drizzle, wearing bendy Hawkins fell boots, Troll waist belt and Viking kernmantle ropes.

No epic whatsoever, because our teacher and guide, a wonderful man called Roy Fisher, was a highly experienced climber who new the terrain like the back of his hand, and made the whole thing a wonderfully enjoyable experience, which was the start of a lifetime of climbing for me.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:
What poor judgement? He seemed to me to do what he should for his skills and that of his partner after making a reasonable choice. If you mean just chosing the route in the first place in winter you are being ridiculous. Compare this ascent with Gordon and his brother on Fiva.

Climbing is a series of games that intrinsically involve choice of risk. His choice was nothing like exceptional. The dreariness of an unexpected damp and anxious descent that could have been bypassed is a common shared early theme. Sure less experienced and unfamiliar climbers make mistakes yet the YOSAR accident stats show experienced skilled climbers also all too often make silly avoidable mistakes that sadly lead to serious accidents and death. Some risks in climbing are huge: ascents on big Himalayan peaks have faced mortality rates current at the time of worse than 1 in 10 yet skilled climbers were still driven to attempt them. At what pont exactly do we start applying your cotton wool?

In reply to NigeR:

You need to take some empathy pills. I recommend guides when breaking into new forms of the game for the very reasons you express but some people prefer a different approach to their climbing. It doesn't make them 100% wrong.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not saying he is 100% wrong, but his post does seem to smack of a 'victim' mentality.

And I reiterate my earlier point, that when you take a relative novice out, you have the responsibility to ensure you have all the bases covered. In this case, the OP plainly didn't.

As for empathy, I have far more for his novice partner, who was shaken up by it, than the fact it took the shine off 'his' day.

In reply to NigeR:
Sorry to be a bore, but can we please try and spell descent correctly? After all, this is a UK (i.e. British) climbing website, and what most UKCers do in their spare time is ascend and descend bits of rock or mountains. We should at least know how to spell our activity in our own language.

P.S. This post is also about more than its ostensible subject matter ... (I hope rather obviously.)

In reply to NigeR:

It is never possible to cover all bases in climbing. Thats part of the point of it.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Thank you for pointing out my poor spelling. If you have any other observations regarding syntax and grammatical structure, please don't hesitate to inform me.

In reply to NigeR:

No, I'm certainly not part of the grammar police, because these forums are chatrooms and not places of 'good writing'.

In reply to Offwidth:

>
I agree with you on the disliking issue, at least in this case.

But I suspect the irritation of dislikers is caused by the implication in the OP that rock climbing shouldn't involve awkward descents, and maybe even that they should be bypassed by fixed gear etc. Browsing jack's logbook nearly all his climbs are are on single pitch areas (or Tremadoc) One suspects therefore that he maybe he hadn't really grasped that mountain rock climbs might also require some mountaineering skills (which he does appear to have) and that this is an integral part of the game.

That attitude is red rag to a bull for the old school or the young fogeys. Having said that, I agree with you that it is part of the learning experience.

In reply to Offwidth:


There are often unforseen circumstances in climbing, however the descent from the top of the Idwal Slabs when you are guiding a novice climber, should not be one of them.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Oh I don't know Gordon, in my relatively short time on here, I've seen some gems

In reply to Offwidth:


Put it this way. I wouldn't take a novice up Hope in the middle of February. I like to plan and prepare properly for such climbs and put a lot of careful thought into the choice of route, taking account of prevailing conditions, weather forecasts, hours of daylight, drainage, polish/wear and nature of descent as well as my respective climbing partners' ability, experience and confidence level. I have taken a lot of novices up a lot of big mountain multi pitches (including Hope) and have never had a single epic. I'm sure those novices were all grateful for me being ridiculous.

In reply to Postmanpat:

It would be interesting to see who this old school are. The genuine older climbers I knew (in their 60s and climbing since young) took much bigger risks and climbed in generally worse conditions. I think its younger folk or the safety obsessed and pompous who never made a mistake. The OP isn't a big UKC regular and was sharing a genuine experience which is hardly uncommon. I think the response in dislikes and some posts was completely disproportionate ( and seems to make all sorts of unfair assumptions and associations).

In reply to Offwidth:


Well I think some of your old school are thinking "we did that sort of stuff all the time, what's his problem?"

Agree about the dislikes.

In reply to Jackspratt:

nah, I love the descent. Adds to the enjoyment in my opinion.

In reply to edunn:


Yes, I remember it being all part of the 'package' and made for a satisfying 'round trip'. A bit like the descent on the Grochan, which was similar, but a lot longer and harder ...