UKC

How much did you notice your climbing improved when you lost some weight?

How much weight do you need to budge before it makes a difference?
1/2 stone? 1/4 stone or much much more?

Or are you weaker?!

Just curious. I'm trying to lose a stone (i'm size 12 so not massive anyway) and i'm hoping it will make life easier on the rock and biking uphill.

your thoughts & experiences?

In reply to Adders:

Try wearing a 1kg (yes one) weight belt & see how much harder things feel.

In reply to Adders:

I'd like to think it makes a difference. If I think of it as bags of sugar, then having an extra three or four bags of sugar to lug up a route with me seems quite a lot.

...she says, thinking mournfully of the three or four kilos she could do to shed...

In reply to Adders:

I recently lost half a stone and i have noticed a big difference. Don't feel any weaker. If you can do it sensibly then you will see some good gains i am sure.

In reply to Adders: I read somewhere a full sport grade for 10% of BW lost, it would be interesting to get a quote on a percentage improvement in performance for this figure but it seems a fair bit of effort. 'Early' dehydration, on the other hand, is said can offset performance by 20%!?

In reply to maxpie: yesh that would be interesting to find out.
I have some of those fancy digital scales and the body fat %, muscular %, water etc are all pretty depressing!

clare: yeah thinking of it like that its a no brainer. I was just wondering if by losing weight it would also reduce my muscles/strength?

adam: nice one! that's encouraging Are you now at your optimum climbing weight?

In reply to Adders:
Hi Adders... long time no see.

I've lost 3/4 stone this year and have noticed a massive difference in performance when climbing, running and cycling. We bought some posh scales at home that measure BF% and BMI which was a real help to understanding how much to lose and how quickly. I'd like to drop another 1/4 to get to 11 1/2 stone which would be about 10% body fat. But I'm sat here typing having just munched a fresh bread roll smothered with butter and home made jam

In reply to Adders: When I lost a stone recently I didn't really have a chance to go climbing to find out if it made a difference.

Now I have been fag free for about a month, put nearly all the stone back on :-S, but wondering if being fag free might at least drag me slightly out of the black hole of punterdom.

Now just got to sort out getting fit and hopefully loosing that stone again.

In reply to Bob kate bob: well done on the lack of fags. It's really tough isn't it.
mail me.
I can't wait to see you next weekend! Def got my climbing mojo back again ( last month )

Ben: Hi Well done on the weight loss.

In reply to Adders:

I have recently lost almost a stone and a half
(5ft 6 and weighed 10st13 now weight 9st 7)

I have found a huge improvemnt in my climbing; I was only really sport climbing 5+ and working the odd F6a but have managed to do a 6b+ since the weight loss.

I really am findig it easier to pull on smaller holds and also have the strength to hold on for longer when i would previously have slipped off.

Boudldering also has improved and again can use smaller holds and being able to hang on those extra seconds gives me the time to work out the next move when in the past I would have given up / fell off!

In reply to Adders: I lost just over 2 stone in about a year. It comes and goes now, but overall it's still on a very slow downward trend.

It made more than a grade difference on trad, even after over a year of not climbing. The main thing was being able to hang around on my arms having a think or placing gear instead of thinking "Argghh! Get to that ledge pronto!"

Walk ins got quicker too.

In reply to Adders: Think you need to establish what your realistic optimal climbing weight range is - i.e. it's not just about 'getting lighter = getting better'. Factors like body type also influence natural weight. I'm 5ft 6, fairly muscular and have varied from 7 stones to 10 1/2 stones, and would say my optimal climbing weight (based on overall performance - strength, stamina, agility) is in a range of 9 to 9 1/4 stones. When I was very light, I had little stamina and was prone to injury. You probably 'know' how much you need to lose & whether you're a bit out of condition - maybe if you stand in front of a mirror and take an honest look at yourself But don't go crazy and start starving yourself; that would be counter-productive.

In reply to prawn & alex: well done! That's really impressive. You must feel so much happier in general with those extra pounds shifted.

So the hanging around element seems to be the biggest obvious improvement. I could def use some extra stamina! I tend to climb quite fast & dynamically. slowing down and thinking more would be a good thing.

marc c - hmmm I have no idea what the optimum weight is, i'm 3/4 heavier now than I was when I started climbing but my grade is the same. (plateau'ed for years at 6a to 6b max) so I pass!
Logic says you must be better if lighter though surely? Maybe I should be way lighter than I ever have been before climbing to really see a difference. arrghhh

In reply to Adders:

Not just logic - Dave MacLeod says it too...

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/assets/getactive/mcofs%20coachwise1%20by%20dmacleod...

In reply to Adders: Like I said 'weight loss automatically translates into better climbing performance' is very elementary logic! If you are climbing no worse than when you did when you were 3/4 stone lighter then either you are climbing better technically now or the type of climbing you do is not particularly dependent upon power-weight ratio (e.g. bouldering on smeary slab problems). However, unless you were under-weight at 3/4 stones lighter, I would suspect that you would notice an improvement in performance on strength-based problems or stamina-sequences if you lost some weight. I'm aiming to lose about 101bs (to get to 9 1/4 stones) by starting running again, but no way do I want to get under 8 stones again!

In reply to Swig: No, DAve Mac DOESN'T say being lighter will necessarily mean better climbing performance - he says 'losing excess body fat and reaching your optimal climbing weight' will translate into better climbing performance. Dave's not anorexically thin.

In reply to Marc C:

True, he just says that it'd benefit most people.

Also it'll be impossible to know whether it'll be the weight loss or the extra exercise done to achieve it that'll provide the benefit.

In reply to Swig: Great article link thanks. Perfect lunch time reading

marc - fell running? You look the type
re me - according to to my height im average but i could easily loose another stone & half and still be 'healthy' it's just that I haven't been that light since being a kid. To put it into context - im currently 9 3/4, I want to be 9, i can't imagine being less but at 5'3 im more than capable.
Man I feel fat now.

In reply to maxpie:

Had this discussion on an earlier thread and I would say the above number might be in the right ball park if by full grade you mean 7c to 8a. (Rather than 7c to 7c+).

For me i think every 3 kilos lost is a 'half grade' sport climbing RP improvement. Obviously this is massively rough estimate as so much else changes at the same time as your weight but its nice to quantify why you are trying to lose the weight - and have an expectation from it.

In reply to Adders:

I lost nearly 3 stone last year. The eventual result was that climbing improvements were coming a lot quicker and more easily than before... However...

I did not diet in the healthiest way and lost much of that weight too quickly (2st in 2 weeks!). When I reflected afterwards I realised that I was very tired for much of the time and I definitely wasn't seeing improvment at that point. When I started to pick up the calories to a more sensible level I started to see the improvements I was looking for.

Overall, I went down from 12 3/4 stone to just under 10 stone. I've maintained that weight quite easily by eating sensibly over the last year and a half. Due to this and the sheer amount of climbing training and general fitness work I've been doing my climbing has improved massively and I feel in better condition now (nearly 30) than I did when I was 21!!

In reply to Adders: Yes, fell running on the moors around Tod, actually! Oh no, you've put me off that cheese on crumpet I was going to have for lunch now

In reply to Adders:

Well I've lost almost a stone in the last 4 months. I'm too much of a punter to climb anything remotely steep outside so it's made virtually no difference to my climbing grade (outdoor trad or sport).

Indoors, I am bouldering a little better. I rarely climb indoor routes but I expect I might be a little better there too.

However, I do feel a bit less heavy and clumsy and this has helped motivation a bit....

Weightloss is no magic bullet.

In reply to Adders: weightloss is of course hugely beneficial to climbing. Climbing strength is power to weight ratio. Reduce the weight and you'll effectively be stronger. In fact it is probably easier than improving power.

The only exception is where you are already waaaay to thin and to lose weight you malnourish your body and lose muscle. i reckon you'd need to be mega thin to reach that stage in which case you're probably more interested in modelling than climbing so none of this would really apply.

In conclusion i reckon it one of the very best things you can do to improve your climbing.

In reply to Adders: to make you feel better i'm 5 4 and ten stone 6. More weight equals faster downhill on the bike

In reply to ebygomm:


Or does it? If you are bigger you will have more wind resistance

In reply to M0nkey: So if losing weight improves your power to weight ratio and effectively makes you stronger (ie improves your finger strength amongst other body parts) why don't you see a more drastic improvement in bouldering ability rather than sport/trad/stamina as is being touted on this thread??

I find it very encouraging to see all these weight/climb and power to weight ratio improvements - so well done to all of you!

I'm 6 foot 2 and 17 stone and would make Don Whillans look puny. However, instead of letting my weight get me down I'm kinda happy climbing at my level (HS, maybe VS on a good day with the wind at my back) and concentrate on how I can attain a height of 9 foot 8, thus achieving the ideal weight for my height...

I'll let you know how I get on

In reply to Adders:

i've lost 2 1/2 st in 11 weeks and noticed a huge improvement, havent been climbing much but at the start i was really struggling up severes and after losing nearly 2 lead vs4c without any problems. Looking forward to seeing what impact 2 1/2 (or perhaps just a bit more) will have made when i get to the lakes in a coouple of weeks.

Aside from climbing the walks in are much easier too! on the downside i need to buy some new clothes now!

In reply to prawn:

I'd anticipate most significant gains in finger strength and stamina. Increased likelihood of remaining injury-free might also be worth considering. 1-2 lbs weekly is generally considered a good rate of weight loss.

After getting something that might have been swine flu I'd lost a stone in about a week, going from 14 to 13 stone (I'm 6'4"). Even though I'd obviously lost some muscle I found climbing much easier.

I don't recommend this method of weight loss though. It's not very pleasant.

Hi,

I'm not an expert, but I would not demonise the weight issue if you fit normal and healthy range for your height.

Certainly, a lighter person usually has better body mass to finger strength ratio, however low weight is not the most important factor that helps in climbing and it does not guarantee you'll jump quickly on 8c's

As a little proof, I would like to mention, very respectfully, John Dunne - a great climber who opened hard routes (i.e. Parthian Shot E9 6c) and who is not a small fly with huge forearms and arms: http://www.johndunneclimbing.com/ I've read on Web (AFAIU, it was 8a.nu forums) that John's normal weight is 85kg.

Second, IMHO it's hard to judge which factor influenced your progress at most: regular climbing/training that improved finger/arms/core strength, endurance and technique or the fact that you've lost a few kilograms (assuming you climb regularly but not only do aerobic work out focused on weight loss).

I'm a stocky guy, (genetically) well built with big bones, but I'm not fat, though I've no idea what is my weight now, have no scale
And if I'd get focused on losing weight only, I could easily lose motivation that is driving me to regular climbing every second day. I just try to not to think about weight, but I'm focused on my technique, strength and endurance and general fitness by implementation of some basic very training program during every climbing session.

My own recent experience assures me that regular and conscious climbing can help in losing weight just "by the way" or at least it helps in keeping your weight constant, what can be a benefit too if you don't care about diet.

A word about diet, I agree it's very important to aware of how food influences your fitness. IMHO, junk food should be forbidden regardless if one is trying to lose weight or not. These few seconds of "taste" only benefits are just not worth it.

-- Mat

In reply to mloskot:


I disagree with this somewhat. For some people it can very easily be the most important factor in climbing. There reaches a point where you've got the technique, you've got the mental head etc and the only aspect to improve is your power/weight ratio. Tackling weight and any excess here just makes working this so much easier. As Moon puts it so eloquently in Hard Grit - "you go on all you like about the subtleties of climbing on this rock or that but for me to do the next hard problem, it just comes down to a question of how hard i can pull" - or something like that.


Yep, but he did his hardest sport climbs (Hara Kiri and Total Eclipse - 1995) before he got fat and the above route when he was 21(1987?). When he was climbing at his Peak I wouldn't have classified him as fat.

As a little proof on the other side i would like to mention Adam Ondra who is damn thin with minimal unneeded muscle build up let alone excess fat.

> A word about diet, I agree it's very important to aware of how food influences your fitness. IMHO, junk food should be forbidden regardless if one is trying to lose weight or not. These few seconds of "taste" only benefits are just not worth it.

For sure!

In reply to Jeff25:

Yes, I agree with that too. I suggested that body weight may not be the very first
element one should focus on before reaching fairly good level in the basics.
Of course, I'm talking about situation when one fits healthy range of BMI
Overweighted persons may need to focus on body weight first and also
because of potential injuries while pulling hard near their limits.

The BMI range is quite wide, I know.
However, my point is that statistics reflected in BMI suggest
that Adam Ondra with his 180cm/58kg in his 20s (from 8a.nu) hooks
lower range of healthy weight what of course gives him very good
conditions to climb hard routes, but the same statistics suggest
John Gill with his 189cm/82kg in his 20s (on ~1950 as stated in Wikipedia [1])
hitting upper range of BMI was in healthy conditions too.
And, he was able to pull hard as we all know.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gill_(climber)

IMHO, if one's weight fits 80-85kg and at the same time he is overweighted,
it doesn't mean he has lost his battle about climbing hard routes.
It is possible that at some advanced point of his climbing works
(like Moon says) he will discover that he needs to lose weight.
Although, I'm trying to not take it as a fixed truth that must happen,
as everybody is different with different potentials.

In reply to mloskot:

Grr, I made a very bad mistake. I wanted to write this:

"if one's weight fits 80-85kg and at the same time he is NOT overweighted"

In reply to mloskot: another 1 pound lost this week for me. This week i'm going to stop drinking booze and see how much that helps.

well done everyone who posted since my last reply. There's alot of good weight loss about on ukc Keep at it.

I'm sure another 10 pounds down, i'll notice my biking uphills getting easier & climbing 'hanging about on holds time' increase.
Fingers crossed.

In reply to Adders:

I was speaking to Baz Durston a few weeks ago at the wall. He was saying that every stone of excess weight you drop increases your sport grade by 1.5 grades.

In reply to Will Goldsmith: I imagine, 1 stone is >6 kg so it is a significant loss of weight.

Hmm, this is very interesting and quite compelling. I wonder if it could be confirmed by more climbers or perhaps it's already a well known ratio.

In reply to Will Goldsmith:

Clearly a massive over-simplification.

Weightloss as grade-gain will probably only be worthwhile if you really are over-weight in the first place. If you're in the 'normal' range, it will probably only equate to diminishing returns. Muscle mass is more expensive for the body to maintain. If you starve yourself by trying to lose weight quick, your body will likely shed muscle before fat = no increase in grade.

It all comes back to the boring, but sensible - change your life style to eat well, train hard, and find the 'optimum' weight for your body. I'd wager that after a rapid, forced weight loss through crazy diet, you'd climb worse, rather than better. Lose weight gradually over a year, not over weeks.

In reply to Adders:

thank you, I feel much healthier and enjoy running again as its not so tough on my joints and climbing is just becoming more and more enjoyable as I am ticking off problems I couldn't touch a few months ago!

In reply to Will Goldsmith:


Baz has generally been a little on the chunky side (and has the muscles to go with it); as Stefan says, not a universally applicable law, especially not to slim teenagers.

In reply to flaneur:

Yeah, im deffenitly not thinking of losing any weight!

In reply to mloskot:

Ah... i didnt see this in your post (about it not being the first element to focus on)... If you did say this then i agree. The technique learning curve presents so much room for improvement over the first year(s) that you can happily climb the grade table and remain a bifta.


Didnt know that Ondra had hit his 20's yet
But seriously I think its hard to argue that carrying anything other than minimal fat is benefical when trying the harder sport climbs out there. - As John Dunne says on the scarpa profile website - hes now too fat for Competitions!

In reply to Jeff25:

Yes, I probably assumed that implicitly and forgotten to write it down.

Ondra hasn't yet, obviously, he is 16 or so. I just simplified calculations using 20 for both, Gill and Ondra.

Of course, minimal fat is beneficial for climbing, no objections.

In reply to Adders:
I lost about half a s tone over atrip to the alps in summer 05. This was from about 11 and 3/4 to 11 1/4 stone, Im 5ft11 so not overweight eitehr way. I did very little rock climbing over than trip (about 2 15m spor routes in 3 weeks). When I got back I had shot up most of a grade (from solid VS with the odd failure trying an HVS and (rarer) a success on an HVS)to comfortable on most HVSs). I am convinced this was solely due to the weight loss. The confidence and techique that climbign the harder grades gave me allowed me to maintain this grade (and improve further) even though I gradually put the weight back on over the next year or so.

In reply to Si dH:
PS it's obviosu really. Climbign is all aout 3 things: techique, your head, and strength-to-weight ratio. Weight will do more for the latter than strength, as youll be improving the ratio of your finger strength-to-weight, arm-strength-to-weight, etc, all at the same time. Anyoen who denies it is important obviously can't be bothered. (and I havent read any of this thread so Im not pickign people out)

In reply to Si dH: Weight will do more for the latter than strength,

"And when I lost the weight I felt like I was floating. My power, dedication and stamina went up. But it took a lot out of my system […] Dieting is a short-term gain, believe me it doesn’t do you any favors in the long run"

http://www.climbandmore.com/climbing,22,0,1,training.html

It doesn't mean I personally don't agree, but I quite doubt the loss of 2-3 kg helps to make a milestone and fly over a couple of grades. If you look into any book about physiology, you can find that it's normal to observe body weight variation of 3-4kg during a day!

In reply to Adders:
One of the main benefits of loosing excess weight is the improvement in joint agility and general body flexibility. If you can rest or move in a more composed way you invariably put less demand on your finger strength. This 'improvement' of strength can easily translate into upping your grade.
Like all training, a dedicated approach to all the issues will see the best long term gains, but, as a quick fix, sure, loose some weight and you'll improve... for now

In reply to mloskot:

given 180cm and 58kg for Ondra he would register in the underweight category of the BMI ranges (17.9).. Not particularly healthy in itself but great for climbing!

I would advise against straight up weight loss for climbing improvement, i have experimented with this a little from ranges between 13 1/2 stone to 11 1/2 stone.

I found 13 st+ too much for me and negatively effected climbing performance.
I found that 11 1/2 stone I looked great but became ill very easily which didn't help climbing!
When i focused on a lot of strength training and bouldering my weight hovered at a consistent 12 st 10lbs (what i liked to call my fighting weight) I did some of my most consistently hard bouldering at this stage/weight without getting injured or ill.

Right now i'm about 12 stone and climbing similar grades as at 10lbs above, so seem to have kept the strength.. but still have plenty of other areas for improvement, so i would advise that weight is not the be all and end all to improve grades but is definitely the quickest..

(Healthy BMI ranges are roughly 19-25 if i remember correctly. I am usually near the top end if not slightly overweight at times)

John at 5'11

In reply to J.Wayland:

I don't think you can apply BMI to athletes.

In reply to mloskot:
Your quote is about dieting. I never said anythign about dieting. When I was in the alps I ate more than my usual food intake, probably by quite a way. I lost the weight by doing lots of exercise.
I woukld agree weight loss is no good if you lose muscle in the process, too.

In reply to J.Wayland:

Yes, I've noticed that too. Just simplified the "calculation" for
discussion, assuming he hits the lower range of BMI.


I think it's a very good comment. I have never read a book about training or watched interview with very good climber where it is not advised "think, make notes (Sonnie Trotter (tm)), observe, listen to your body" etc.

It seems there is no such thing as a golden rule that works for everybody, unfortunately


I think I hit that too

In reply to Swig:

Yes, you are right and I'm afraid I've oversimplified with examples based on BMI what probably lead to some sort of misunderstanding than was helpful.

BMI for athletes usually gives confusing results.

However, I think, if somebody has just started climbing or wants to move to more advanced level - in other words, is not a professional athlete - then I think BMI still may be helpful to answer basic question: should I jump on campus now or when I drop 5kg...

In reply to Si dH:

My understanding is that Malcolm explains a diet as a way to lose weight, but the weight is the subject.


Right.


Yes, but it's not uncommon that climbers lose muscles of lower body (ie. tigh).

Anyway, I'd still stick to my original doubt that loss of 2-3 kg gives observable gain of power. I suppose you may have gained some benefit from the rest of climbing and intensive aerobic/cardio exercises that also improved general ability of fast recovery that helps to not to pump out.

In reply to Adders:

My most noticeable improvement through weight loss was when climbing one Christmas at Hueco Tanks. A drunken Christmas Eve ended with a drinking game and shortly after my mexican christmas meal was ejected into a bin liner through my nostrils. I was still chucking up on Christmas morning and couldn't eat. In the afternoon I went climbing and was surprised that despite a hangover my empty stomach and dehydrated state gave me a noticeable improvement in finger strength.

Overall loosing some body fat is a great way to improve one's fitness/strength and power to weight ratio. But do it slowly so you don't lose to much muscle mass which you'll need, particularly on steeper stuff.

In reply to Adders:

Some relevant points here (as well as some odd ones):

http://www.8a.nu/?IncPage=http%3A//www.8a.nu/articles/ShowArticle.aspx%3FAr...

Pedant alert: English is not his first language

In reply to Simon Lee:

Thanks for the very good reference! I think that the only thing I can do now is to take back the parts emphasising BMI in my posts

In reply to Simon Lee: great link thanks

In reply to Adders:Well I noticed a massive difference in my climbing ability last year when I decided to go on a health kick and loose 4 1/2 stone in a year. I shot up the rock so to speak, and Approaches were a lot easier too! I started to notice the majority of difference after about a stone and a half to answer your question. The secret is to do exercise and diet because if don't carry on exercising your body burns muscle to make the defecit up.... I think. Well it worked for me anyways lol

In reply to Adders:
Lots. Assuming that other variables (cardio fitness, regular climbing etc) are constant, i climbed 1 grade better at a lighter weight..... 133 lbs ish when I was going well (i'm 5'6) and currently 155 + & not so good. I also find I can pump iron way better when I'm heavier, but what benefit there is from that i am not sure. I can run way quicker too when I'm lighter... BUT my wife says I look better with a bit more weight on?????

In reply to Adders:

Nah, you don't want to turn into one of those scrawny sparrow climbing chicks. besides, no-one can assign an arbitrary number in terms of how much weight loss makes a difference to your grade. Just figure out what feels like your optimum weight.

In reply to Adders: If you dont have much body fat and you loose a stone you will be loosing muscle, this will make you weaker. I put on half a stone of what was probably muscle and could climb harder. So your answer is dont go nuts thinking that loosing weight no matter what will make you climb better as this isnt always true.

In reply to Adders:

I recently lost 5kg, but replaced the weight with a belt when training (ie kept total weight constant). Then, when I went out without the belt I was definitely stronger.
Then I got an injury and got fat again.

In reply to pdufus:

I've heard stories about controlled weight loss by losing mass of lower body muscles. I suppose it may be beneficial, but it I'm quite sure it is difficult to achieve, requires some decent knowledge of that matter, etc.