UKC

I am a moderator for a few crags, but its really annoying that you cant change the grade on some routes. Mostly ones that have a rockfax guide if i am correct?

it defeats the object of being a moderator really, as take for example Yew Cogar. The grades are famous for bring wrong there yet when i edit climb and change grade it doesnt change it?

why is this?

I think it's because the app is running off the database, so changes to the logbooks would create conflict or changes in the app.

It does create an issue. Normally the information going into the guides has been kept up to date in part by the community. This puts the brakes on that somewhat.

Second that.

Not just grades, I've also noticed things that are simply errors, routes synced up to the wrong route and suchlike.

So this comes down to Rockfax then. Do they want to do half a job or a proper job?

Are you suggesting that a grade should be changed simply because you disagree with it or because the consensus on the UKC voting page suggests that it is wrong?  I wouldn't have a huge problem with the latter but even so UKC is not the sole arbiter of grading nor the only representative of the climbing community. I suspect that the traditional guide book writers, BMC, CC, F&R go to some lengths to reach a consensus. Whether this is a more robust method than climbers simply ticking a box on a Web page is possibly debatable.

Al

I think you're missing the point slightly.

If any of the traditional guidebook sources you mention were to change a grade, based on whatever lengths they have gone to to gather consensus, the moderator still couldn't make the relevant change, because Rockfax has it locked down. The good thing about the voluntary moderation system is that the grades can be changed and changed back - if a moderator goes rogue, they will be called out.

And neither is Rockfax.

Is it Three Pebble Slab?

Perhaps but I wasn't arguing the point I was asking for a little more clarity so that I could avoid missing the point. Hope that makes sense.

Al

That's fair enough. I don't think moderators changing grades erroneously is a cause for concern though, because like I say, if one appears to be changing things based on their opinion only, or going against consensus, they can be called out, and if necessary removed.

It's a real strength of UKC's database that everything is editable, so mistakes can always be corrected.

Well tell us, then we can correct them. You can use the red 'Report Major Discrepancy' button for that as well.

Alan

I am suggesting that if something is a)wrong in the first place or b)something has come off and is now a different grade. 

In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Alan, i have already done this and wondered if anything would happen?

2)I only took over Yew cogar yesterday to sort it out, and first thing was major grade changes. 

We may have a problem with the form which is why I have removed my post above.

Thanks

Alan

Yes but that's not what I asked.  My question was a little deeper than that.

"Are you suggesting that a grade should be changed simply because you disagree with it or because the consensus on the UKC voting page suggests that it is wrong?"

i.e. who decides it's wrong?

Al

Al, nothing to do with me, just there are certain routes at Yew Cogar for example, where they got given the grade as there was no other of that grade at the crag, and this has carried over historically. I am trying to sort that, and no, its not just that i disagree, its common knowledge. 

Yes, I noticed that. I can certainly change that since it is a bit daft.

Alan

I'm obviously not expressing myself clearly enough.   I'm not interested in the specifics, I don't even know where Yew Cogar is.  I was more interested in the principle. But no matter I'll butt out as this is obviously between you and UKC/Rockfax and I don't want to widen the debate into a controversy.

Al

I have - I can think of one I reported weeks ago that I see is still there. Understandable if folk have other things on their plates, it's not hugely important, but it does seem to make the system less efficient and offload some of the moderators' work onto your staff!

Al, you make good points. 

Grades shouldn't be changed too often and this does tend to happen where moderators have a free reign. People play tennis with grades to suit their ascents. They become a moderator to change something they had a hard time on.

Grades should change when someone puts time in and applies it across a whole guidebook based on recorded ascents, their own experience if possible, and votes. This gets done every time we produce a new Rockfax to an area and we change grades to pretty much follow the voting consensus. If we then allow Johnny/Jane soft-grader to come in and upgrade all his/her fav ticks then why bother doing the assessment in the first place. The voting system is there to equalize peoples' opinions. It is flawed because it is visible before you vote, but that is necessary since vote information is helpful to people before their ascents, however it is still incredibly useful.

We set them in stone in a book and at the same time set them in stone on UKC Logbooks. If something happens like a broken hold, or a route that we got wrong, then we have ‘report discrepancy’ which we can use to change the Rockfax base grade but we must keep that under the control of the super moderators who are the ones who are looking at the information across a whole area.

Alan

PS. This thread has highlighted that there could be a problem with the 'Report Discrepancy' system so we are looking at that now and will also add some features to it to make it more user-friendly.

As someone who's put a fair bit of time into moderating, and trying to do it well, I'm mildly offended by this. I don't doubt it happens occasionally, but the majority of moderators don't do that. If they did, the grades in the database would be all over the place, and by and large they aren't.

I'm sure Rockfax is very conscientious about decisions to keep or change grades, but is there any reason a volunteer can't be equally so?

Didn't mean to offend. There are some amazing moderators and we are extremely grateful for all their hard work. This obviously includes you since you have been around and active for years on UKC.

I am sure we could rely on yourself to moderate with the required level of circumspection however we can't rely on everyone to do that and we don't really want to assess people. There might be scope for people to earn enhanced moderator status which would give them more rights so I'll chuck it into the mix, but it will require work (and hence time).

Alan

No worries. I wasn't angling for any kind of special status, and I hadn't really considered the issue of rogue moderating from your side.

I think you have designed an outstanding resource in the crag database, which is why I've been happy to put time into it. I guess because you have invited voluntary contribution it feels like there is a bit of community ownership there, even though of course it's actually owned by you.

I think just using the Rockfax grading is the best way to for the reason Alan says above. People can have their say in the comments and voting. If the guidebook grading is out then why get hung up about it as a moderator? I don't think my opinion as a moderator counts for any more than another climber at a given crag. I certainly wouldn't bother to change a guidebook grade as a moderator unless something had fallen off since the last guidebook. Better that a consensus comes from a proper team of guidebook writers I think than me. I think what is more annoying is when there is a deviation from the guidebook grade in the logbooks for no other clear reason than the moderator having presumably had a hard or soft time on the route.

I think this belies just how wrong some of the grades are (much more so on bouldering that's been developed in the past 10 or 15 years or so), and how much the "guidebook grade" on the UKC database influences the grade votes (and lots of people happy to do their first 7A or first 7B or whatever rather than another 6B).

Fortunately this isn't actually a massive problem since most of these problems aren't in the app, so the grades can be changed easily. But I can imagine it being frustrating to need to make changes and not just be able to do it easily.

Ok, we have overhauled the system a bit. It turns out that changes made a few weeks ago had stopped the report emails being properly formatted and sent.

The 'Report Discrepancy' button is functioning again.

Apologies for the problems here.

Alan

PS. I changed Ten Year Itch (8a+) to 8a+

This sounds like the system working correctly though. Before proper documenting in a print or digital publication, the grade can be changed. Once an author has assessed it and committed it to a publication, then it should be closer to reality and bolting it down then becomes sensible.

There will be discrepancies though which is why the report system is worth having.

Alan

For what it's worth, since the app is running off the database I can absolutely see why things are set up as they are. And it won't cause a problem for 99% of the time. But I can understand Adam's frustration at having a barrier between him and making updates. 

Thanks Alan but that didnt sort the other two routes out mentioned. Its up to rockfax what stance they take but the new wired guide will have a few changes, some being 2 grades different.

For anyone that doesnt know yew cogar, its a funny crag and doesnt get many people going. Its well known the grades were given as no other route at that grade at that crag existed. Add that to the fact there was a cock up with one of the gradings of another route and you have some major discrepancies... its up to you guys of you fix this or not? Ill step aside an moderator as id rather not be associated with the mistakes.

its available now if anyone wants it

Ive tried removing myself and it stills says i am moderator so if you could remove me Alan. Hopefully you’ll get someone who tows the line and doesnt try sort the crag out with correct details.

Hi Adam

Have you reported these other two routes? As mentioned, the system wasn’t working until yesterday and I can’t tell which two routes you are referring to based on the comments or votes.

You are no longer moderator now - I suspect that you were just looking at a cached page. This means that you won’t be able to report them using the new system any more of course. You could type them in here - use the boxes above the reply box so that I can one-click to go straight to them in the system.

I am a little unsure what it is about the system you still object to now we have made it work properly and explained our reasoning.
 

Alan

One is probably Wonderwall (8b+), not sure about the other.

Ok fair enough. I guess i can see it from your point of view that you don't want mass changes of grades. BTW, i assume this only happens on routes that are in a Rockfax guide? 

I am moderator of crags in Spain and i am sure they allowed me to change grades. Not because i thought the grades were wrong but the fact holds had come off and stayed off, and grade has since gone up. (Or down)

Cheers

Yes. It is for routes covered in our books and on the app. There is a linking process from the app which flags the route and from then on only admin-moderators can change the grade.

BTW I changed Wonderwall (8b+) to 8b+ but it sounds like it might be 8c. I still don’t know which other routes you are referring to though since nothing else jumps out from the voting and comments.

Alan

Ill add them again when i get chance. 

Funny story behind Wonderwall. Rob Haigh who was working it at the time broke a hold off high up. So being the good citizen that he is took it with him and planned to return and glue it back. In the mean time his house got broken into and the hold was inadvertently taken in the robbery. So now remains a Vickers 8b, who never gave it 8b in the first place, and is also missing a crucial hold thats now lost. 

So yes, probably now 8c Alan.

You say inadvertently taken, but there's a roaring trade in black market holds for people's boards at the moment. The crimp on Demon Wall Roof? The X hold from Hunter's Stones. The gaston from Grape Nut? All available stolen to order.

Only the other night a shady bloke knocked at my door and showed me his wares. The Wonderwall hold now has pride of place in my garage.

How much did it cost?