UKC

On the recent climbing ethics discussion someone said:

I've had this, or something similar, happen to me a couple of times in the Alps. On each occasion the newly arrived climber unclipped one of our krabs, clipped his own to the bolt, and then reattached our krab to his. As a Brit I found this disconcerting (and my belayer was a bit freaked out), but on reflection it was probably not really all that unsafe - our belayer was still attached to the other bolt, which should be sufficient, and this took only a few seconds until we we again back on both bolts. When we came to move on, our belayer simply had to remove their krab from the other party's krab, so there was no additional faff and it was just like cleaning a belay directly attached to the bolts.

To the other climbers this practice seemed to be routine and unremarkable, which caused me to wonder whether this is the recognised method for clipping in to a bolted belay which is already occupied. Amongst the proliferation of online written and video advice on the topic of bolted anchors I can't find anything addressing this particular question.

Any thoughts?

In reply to Howard J:

The protocol, in my book anyway, is to ask ( nicely)  before doing anything to another parties gear.

A simple OK? and pointing can get over language difficulties.

If I was belayer in place , I would like to think I had the wherewithall to suggest what was appropriate to the arriving leader as they got to the stance.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Me too. But maybe that's a British attitude, and perhaps usually climbing on trad gear may affect our attitude to someone tampering with our belay. If this practice is seen as normal and expected perhaps it's not thought necessary to ask for permission.

In reply to Howard J: you should always ask before messing around with belays.  Id guess they were putting you 'on top' as you're leaving first, but still ... communication 

In reply to Howard J:

Best of luck with this one...

In reply to wbo2:

 

last week I returned to the Alps for the first time in two decades.  I asked to share the belay bolts with someone who turned out to be a guide.  He expressed both surprise and gratitude that I had asked.  
 

On the same route, later on, another guide looked at my belay (non locking carabiners… just because… on the belay bolts clove hitched to the rope)  He appeared to curl his lip and continued past me simul-climbing with a client who appeared to be struggling. Then again, I might have imagined the lip curl. 

In reply to Howard J:

I think the question of asking permission is a cultural one. Most Brits appear to think it is necessary, but other nationalities seem to differ. Is that rudeness? (but what is considered rude differs between cultures). Or is that sharing the anchor is so normal and expected that there is no need to ask?

I quite like the technique itself, having had time to think about it.  It's quick and slick, and not unsafe - the person already at the belay remains on one bolt, and that is probably connected to the other either by a chain or a sling.  It keeps things simple for the first party when they are ready to move on and avoids any faff at that point.  It is quite common for parties on popular routes to share stances, and in the Alps where these are bolted that means sharing the anchors as well. My question is whether this is in fact the usual and expected way to do it?  I cannot find any advice or guidance on this topic, which is a little surprising when the internet is littered with self-appointed experts.

In reply to Howard J:

I think it massively depends on the situation and configuration of the belay, e.g. valley multipitch sport route or serious alpine route; good ledge or hanging belay; chain-linked quality bolts or dodgy peg and a rusty home-made bolt? If you're likely to share a belay, I generally think it's good etiquette to leave space for the other team to clip in without having to remove anything of yours. But, I also have met two very inconsiderate guides in the last month whose only consideration was their own team's progress, as well as one very friendly and helpful and many indifferent guides. Either way, I think British rules don't really apply when you're clipping someone else's expensively installed 27kn bolts rather than placing your own directional nuts and cams.

In reply to Howard J:

It has been really interesting seeing the different ethics on overtaking and belay sharing depending on nationality.

On my first trip to El Potrero Chico in Mexico (an area replete with Americans and Canadians) my buddy and I decided to simul climb a multipitch route. I think it was about 10 pitches, and well within our onsight ability. We were on a bit of a tight schedule since he had to start work later that afternoon, hence the choice for a rapid simul ascent.

Anyway, there was an American couple already on it, about half way up. We climbed six pitches in the time it took them to climb one. They were at a massive belay ledge. The anchors were brand new, massive bolts, connected with a chain and ring. We just assumed it would be fine to pass, giving the cursory "mind if I nip past you here, won't be a minute". It did not go down well. They were extremely upset and outright refused to let us go anywhere near their belay ledge, let alone pass. They said that we should have woken up earlier, and that we were ruining their day. We decided not to escalate further and we rapped off once they had cleared the stance.

I'm now in Squamish and it seems to be a similar story. The team that is first on the route effectively "own" the route. You need to ask permission to go past someone, and there is a good chance they will say no. I do wonder what their reactions would be if they tried climbing in the alps! I've had French and Italian guides literally climb over me at belay stances before.

In reply to Howard J:

Similar approach (or used to be) to sharing a swim lane in a training pool. In the UK, it seems the whole lane can get filled up (often with bearded men who swim like bricks in the fast lane). I noticed in Canada, the first person in the lane ‘owns’ it and is under no obligation to share it. To be fair, I last swam (not very…) competitively about 20 years ago, so this might have changed by now. 

In reply to Howard J:

Similar approach (or used to be) to sharing a swim lane in a training pool. In the UK, it seems the whole lane can get filled up (often with bearded men who swim like bricks in the fast lane). I noticed in Canada, the first person in the lane ‘owns’ it and is under no obligation to share it. To be fair, I last swam (not very…) competitively about 20 years ago, so this might have changed by now. 

In reply to Strife:

Hmmm, yes, I've encountered that in the States - but I've also encountered the exact opposite. We scrambled down the descent into the Black Canyon of the Gunnison and noticed a team of two a few pitches up Scenic Cruise. I think they probably finished the pitch they were on by the time we caught them up. They instantly told us to go past them. I arrived at the next belay and assumed that they would start climbing again as soon as my second had left 'their' stance. They didn't move. Nor did they move when I started the next pitch. It was only when I'd finished that pitch and my second left her belay and was well on her way that they started climbing again. A bit over-generous, I thought especially as we topped out minutes before a huge thunderstorm broke. 

In reply to Strife:

Yes, we've been shouted at by Americans who didn't want to share a stance/get overtaken. I remember one apoplectic guide yelling at us "Don't touch my suff!!!"

Wonker.

In reply to Howard J:

The very former head of the safety commission of DAV's Safety Commission once recounted an episode where a team climbed over them and over their belay stance quite unsafely. A single butterfly knot in their rope quickly clipped into a solid carabiner served the others as a nice reminder not to ever do that again

In reply to Strife:

I used to live in US, and I think a lot of this comes from the concern of stuff dropping on the climbing party. In El Potrero that's not entirely unreasonable; Squamish less so. There are also some more deep-seated cultural differences between Europe and USA around community vs self. 

My experience - pretty much regardless of geographic location or nationality of the people involved - is that 2 competent and respectful parties tend to get on just fine (can even add to the fun of the day). Where guided or less comfortable parties are involved there is all the potential for emotive crap show

In reply to Howard J:

http://www.bluebison.net/yosar/alive.htm

This article will be familiar to many and contains excellent advice and insight.  It also has some comments on the issues of passing and attendant risks.  US perspective 

In reply to Howard J:

This and your other replies are to my mind the sensible  response to this . It’s the norm in France , Italy , Spain and probably elsewhere .  to expect otherwise is silly , If there are two linked bolts it’s perfectly safe . it’s a Completely different situation to somebody tinkering with your trad belay without discussion . Expecting others to behave differently in thier own country , or differently to the local norm is  such a Brit  thing it’s laughable .  

In reply to Howard J:

Politeness aside I'm curious about the physical options here. In your scenario, the second team put one locker between one of yours and the bolt and then belayed directly from that, backed up (but obviously not equalised) by your belay configuration which is attached to the other bolt. Is that right? When you leave, they presumably add something to back up to the other bolt.

I guess in the absence of hangers (or rings) big enough to accomodate several karabiners there isn't away for them to construct a completely separate equalised/redundant belay anchor.

Seems like a pretty smooth little system if the communication/stress factor can be negotiated well in the moment.