UKC

Kafoozalem (E4 6a)

Raven Wall (E3 5c)

Hello UKC and specifically to anyone who has climbed both Kafoozalem and Raven Wall at Bosigran.

I did both of these this weekend and really do not understand the grading of these routes at all.

I am definitely in the "shorter climber" category so maybe that is a factor but for me, Raven Wall is significantly harder to lead. 

As soon as you set off from the niche on Raven Wall, its full on and a fight the whole way to the top, with one rest pre crux away from the gear on decent holds but poor feet. I had to fight for all gear placements from the niche onwards, all placed under duress, and some pieces were not exactly in the bomber category.

By contrast, Kafoozalem has big positive holds the whole way up, apart from the top of the crack where there are a couple of crimps but again these are super positive. For big holds, read absolute incut rails you can get your whole hand behind with at least one good foot at all times, even on the crack there is an absolute sinker of a 3 finger pocket two thirds the way up to shake out on and place gear. Every bit of gear was in the bomber category and placed from a stable, usually comfortable position, and there are so many gear options!

I am not saying the grading is wrong per se or even arguing about the numbers (e3/4,5c/6a) but would genuinely like to hear from the person who can tell me that I am wrong and Kafoozalem is definitely harder and why!

Both are absolutely mega by the way, with Raven Wall providing me with my best battle on lead since Fay a couple of years ago and Kafoozalem just oozing quality.

In reply to emitto:

Totally agree about raven wall. I found it really awkward to climb, and place gear with a lot of tenuous positions. Right up to the crux which I lobbed off first go when my foot popped off a smear. It’s one of those routes that you fall upwards. The top layback is tough too. 
But you’ve totally inspired me to get Kafoozalem done as I’ve been saving too long.

In reply to emitto:

My logbook says Raven Wall was harder - I did it the day after Kafoozalem. 

In reply to emitto:

I don't remember the gear placements being tricky on Raven Wall, but the crux definitely is! Very physical, and if you start to give up, you've had it! I wonder if being small could even be helpful? Saddle Tramp seemed a similar standard. I need to get back for Kafoozalem. The place has got to be one of the best E3-ish walls around.

While we're on topic, what's going on with the grades of Grendel and Patience? The latter is surely the easier route. I thought solid E3 for Grendel, maybe high E2 for Patience. Both brilliant.

In reply to emitto:

Ok, it was nearly 50 years ago, but I failed to lead Kafoozalem, and found it hard to second, but a couple of days later led Raven Wall without any fuss. PoD even photographed the event, published with the caption "Climber on Raven Wall" when it appeared in the comic - my one chance for fame and fortune gone in anonymity...

In reply to emitto: this might not be the most objective comparison, but I remember once being spanked on Kafoozalem, then watching a very good climber having an even harder time on Raven Wall.

In reply to emitto:

Like Pete, my memory of these routes is probably too long ago to be of much value. It is also worth remembering that Raven Wall was E2 until the mid-90s, and Kafoozalem and, more bizarrely, Evil Eye (E5 6b) were E3.

I did Raven Wall as about my 5th ever 'E2'. It was my hardest route at the time, but there is no way on earth that I would have been capable of getting up an E4 in those days. I did Kafoozalem and Evil Eye on the same day in the mid-90s and the former is definitely a lowish E4; Evil Eye must have been one of the great sandbags in the SW at E3 since it is solid E5.

So my thoughts would be that the routes are correctly graded at present, and this is pretty much reflected by the UKC grade voting. Whether that is just old dudes voting on how it felt in their day is a moot point!

Alan

In reply to mike barnard:

Having only done patience in that area I would say that it is is Bosigran E2 (E3 elsewhere) and really straddles the border of the grade imho.

In reply to the OP I think all the routes down that end have been upgraded recently but you should probably remember that one(ish) grade isn't a lot of difference. If kafoozalem is a soft E4 AND is your style it's definitely going to feel easier than a hard E3 this isn't your style as grades are a continuum not just neat little boxes. In relative terms a hard E3 and soft E4 aren't going to be much different, throw in a healthy dose of personal strengths and weaknesses the grades can easily seem flipped. 

I think it was caff who said something like (paraphrased) "don't worry if you find routes one or two grades below your hardest desperate if they aren't in your style" and this stands true for me a lot of the time. 

In reply to Dan Dyson:

Awkward and tenuous are exactly the right words!

As for Kafoozalem, get it done mate, absolute banger, so much gear, amazing holds. Love it!

In reply to petemeads:

No mate, it makes for a cracking anecdote.

But the fact you found Raven wall straight forward is impressive.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Perhaps I worded it badly, so not so much as a grade debate, it's more that one feels really hard and the other straight forward.

Do you have any recollection of having to fight on Kafoozalem, for gear or the actual moves?

In reply to emitto:

I had a proper battle on Kafoozalem but it was about 30°C in the full sun at the time. I seconded Raven Wall when it was still E2 (or we had an old guide) and don't actually remember anything about it!

Draw from that what you will.

In reply to DaveHK:

Sounds like a contender for what I was looking for then, someone who genuinely found Kafoozalem harder...

Unless the lack of memory is you erasing the trauma of Raven Wall!

In reply to emitto:

Conditions can easily make something feel harder or easier though. Raven Wall was on a different trip and much cooler.

In reply to emitto:

Actually, just ignore me. I went and checked guides and it was Grendel I seconded, not Raven Wall. Doh!

In reply to emitto:

Your logs imply you onsighted the one that felt hard on lead and had previously climbed the one that didn't. I wonder if what's happened here is you've invented redpointing.....?

In reply to emitto:

I did kafoozalem today, felt pretty steady, but then someone had tickmarked every foothold.

I seconded raven wall clean and fell off kafoozalem on the same day last year. Probably not much between them I don't think, kafoozalem a bit more 'conventional', raven wall pretty thrutchy.

In reply to DaveHK:

I was down there a few years ago and mega psyched for Kafoozalem after finding the Ghost relatively staightforward, but ran away with my tail between between my legs after watching a freind of a friend realy struggle on it who I knew was much better than me and had several grades in hand. He later commented that he didn't think the debate should be hard E3/soft E4  more like soft E5 hard E4. It was however blisteringly hot and greasy so I expect conditions played a major role.

In reply to ebdon:

I don't think there's much of a case for it being E5 but I'm happy to agree with it not being E3 or even particularly soft E4. It was still E3 when I did it and I felt a little short changed by that. I did loads of SW E3s on the same trip as I did Kafoozalem and it felt a good bit harder than all of them. I also did Fay that trip and found it easier than Kafoozalem although I was very fit by that point and stamina based routes can feel straightforward when you climb yourself into that sort of form.

In reply to emitto:

Difficult to say but probably not. I think I was going quite well at the time and it was Evil Eye that was more memorable since I did that straight after. The one that I fought hardest on was certainly Raven Wall but that was 12 years earlier!

In reply to emitto:

I did Interogation, at Hay Tor, and Kafoozalem, at around the same time and thought them similarly hard. I thought them both hard E3s but not harder than E3. When I did Raven Wall thought it quite reasonable for the grade.

In reply to petemeads:

Hi Pete,

Rest assured, your fame won't be forgotten, at least not by me!

That was 1977 wasn’t it, you, me and John Kirk..?

I'm not sure who took the shot of you on Raven Wall (either John or me) but if it was me I apologise profusely for the unnamed caption in Crags.

Good trip…you terrifying us driving your Escort RS 2000 at racing speeds on the (then) quiet Cornish lanes and Thin Lizzy songs blasting out from the stereo.

Pete.

In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

Pete's RS was fast (I remember Bowie's Panic in Detroit being an apposite track) but the scariest passenger experience in the Bowline was probably Phil Davies' Simca van - lets just say it was propelled along roads at velocities outside its performance envelope 😱😱😱

I've still got no idea how Phil managed Black Rocks to Huncote village in 45 minutes - cars were narrower then so the ability to treat roads as if they always had a middle third lane must have had something to do with it!

And getting back to the grade debate, both routes were way too hard for me but I note that the CC West Cornwall guide from 2000 has them at E3 6a and E3 5c.

In reply to petemeads:

Hi Pete,

This is you on Raven Wall. You were right; it was in Crags No.15 and the credit reads: Climber on Raven Wall at Bosigran. Photo: Pete O’Donovan. 

I’m moving house, and I’m having a clear-out - only came across it after reading the thread. 

Hope you are good

Greg

In reply to Greg Lucas:

Cheers Greg, saves my wading through boxes of old mags, and cheers to Pete and Michael for the memories! I suspect I was wearing my brown crimplene trousers, the height of climbing fashion, which helped me blend in with the granite...

In reply to dinodinosaur:

As I put in the reply above, it's not so much the grades, more the direct comparison between two essential routes that are practically next to each other on an iconic crag.

I walked away feeling that one was way harder than the other and that seems counter intuitive.

I get the 'my style' thing and maybe that's it, but my style nowadays is steep limestone, more akin to Raven...

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Ah well this is another small can of worms. I debated how to log this...

There was a group of 3 working Kafoozalem throughout the day and we started with 4 routes on Lower Raven Wall. I couldn't help but see bits of their ascent and beta, so even though Kaf was not specifically on the list for this trip, I felt ethically that I couldn't claim an onsight anyway.

So I do battle with Raven Wall and then we bask in the sun and watch the guys on Kaf. While I was on Raven Wall, one of the guys successfully lead Kaf but they were struggling to get the route cleaned so I volunteered to second it.

Tied in and climbed the route and stripped the gear with very little fuss.

Considering I was tired and had to strip out gear, I felt it was way easier than I expected and way easier than Raven.

Because of this I decided I would come back and lead it in the morning.

I have never really headpointed a route before, being a trad climber of 30+ years but a sport climber for the last 3. Always tried to go onsight or ground up with trad.

Decided to embrace the idea of headpointing so checked the gear on the ab on the way in. Tied in and lead the route with no problem.

Even though it's a head point I still feel that it would have been much easier to onsight than Raven Wall, as I said, the key differences are the quality of the gear and stances in which you can place gear are so comfortable on Kafoozalem, with big rests in six places on the route, I had one rest spot on Raven Wall which was average at best.

So far not many takers saying outright that Kafoozalem is definitely the harder of the routes, but a handful of ascensionists seem to agree that Raven Wall is hard/nails!

And to reiterate, I am not really questioning the grading as such, more just interested in people's experience and opinions on these routes.

In reply to emitto:

A few thoughts.

On Raven Wall, going onto the arete for a rest above the crux appears to be 'in' (it's in the description!) and does help if you're pumped.

Sport climbing fitness may help on a lot of routes, but the crux of Raven Wall is always going to feel like a brutal struggle!

As others have identified, you aren't comparing like with like. If nothing else, previously seconding a route clean will remove uncertainty and therefore give you the confidence you might not otherwise have had on an onsight attempt.

In reply to fammer:

Maybe it's a simple at that, conventional vs thrutchy.

I guess I'm better at conventional?!