UKC

The fear of falling thread inspired me to start my own thread.

I don't know why, but the more i climb the worse i get. I got up to leading HVS over the summer and yesterday i had to take a rest as second on a severe, whats all that about?

I must admit most of the time i cannot 'feel' the moves or the flow of the route and tbh climbing does not come naturally to me at all.

I have been climbing all winter multiple times a week indoors, and can climb 6B fairly regularly, depending on which wall i am at.

But i enjoy the whole scene, having something to train for rather than going to the gym and getting out in the wild, especially multi-pitch.

I can boulder up to V7 indoors and get to the last moves on a few V8's, but i think that is more through brute strength than technique, the plan was to start rock climbing to get into mountaineering, i may train specifically for that from now on.

Anyone else been in a similar situation?

Can't say I've been in the same situation, but the big thing is that you're enjoying it. 

Sounds like you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself. Maybe you should just head out and have some fun easy days? Tick a load of low grade classics and have fun. 

The more people climb, the more experienced they become. So, to be brutally honest, you're probably just over-estimating your abilities to begin with. Climbing one route of a grade doesn't mean that's the grade you climb at. And, in my humble, most gyms are far out in their grading - way too soft.

So, maybe do what I do, which is to accept I'm just not that good yet, and then climb things I enjoy and feel comfortable with, extending my comfort zone bit by bit, becoming competent, learning what there is to learn in different disciplines, on different types of rock and in different settings. Also, although grades are the obvious way to compare different bits of rock and to measure our progress, try to avoid overly focusing on them, because they don't speak of the infinite variety of climbing - from cracks to compact slabs, grit to slate, sea cliffs to mountain routes to quarries.

Finally, maybe you need to build your stamina. V7/8 must mean you're pretty strong, but that's not the same as being able to keep going for 20 mins + on a tricky 30 or 40m trad lead.

Enjoy the new season

 V7 is no mean feat indoors or out. But it sounds like you’re just getting good at what you do a lot of. I can empathise.

Decide what you want to do first and then ask advice at working at that.

I wish I could. That's pretty impressive if you can't even climb like you say. When you climb routes are you relaxed and focused on climbing? Training is more about fingerboarding and campusing. Training can be technical and mental. That recent Neil Gresham article on here is spot on. Read it if you haven't already.

Just lead climbing in general at the minute i suppose, i know i am physically capable, but the fear and negative self talk starts mid lead - really frustrating

I agree with the other posters.  You've only been climbing a year, so you've still loads to learn about movement, protection, micro-navigation, confidence etc. etc.

Get out there and tick off loads of severes and VSs.  You'll know when it's time to move up to HVS because the easier climbs will start to become a doddle.  If you progress too quickly in trad, you'll just end up scaring yourself, or getting hurt.  That'll send you backwards. backwards.

Climbing walls are usually very different to trad climbing, so don't think that indoor 6b means that you can lead E1 or E2. It does for me but I've been climbing for thirty years.  For that to be true for you, you'll need the other trad skills to be at '6b' level as well.  Except that you can't really practice them indoors... So get yourself outdoors several times a week and it'll soon start slotting into place

Many people have. Your indoor V7 will be soft (but still impressive), some HVS climbs regularly stop quite experienced Extreme leaders and a weird Severe can also trip up many. Just get more lead mileage on routes and work you technical weaknesses and post the routes you fail on here and people will usually confirm they are brutes or sandbags.

Hey mate,

I see in your profile that you've been climbing for not long?  V7 indoors is a stonking achieviement if that's the case, congrats!

Also it puts you into a great place - being able to do  hard individual moves.

You are gathering experience climbing on a rope, which is a science of its own - climbing with as little effort as possible, milking every rest, clipping position, not being afraid of falling - these things take time for everyone. 

At this stage also endurance is probably an issue, however I would just suggest climbing on a rope and getting pumped rather than any specific training.

Also, falling on a severe is not a marker that you're not improving. You've just come across a move that was unusual for you, maybe because of a new crag or a just a new type of route.  I redpoint about 7bish  and normally onsight 6c/7a but I am sure that there are some routes of grades of 6b/6b+/6c  that I would either really struggle to flash or fall of on the flash because of rock types, unusual moves, maybe large runouts or something like that.  Be happy when you come across these routes, they push your comfort zone further and iron out weaknesses. 

I only seconded two routes as i was bouldering with a friend all morning over in the plantation, the routes in question were Balcony buttress which i thought was stiff for severe and Amazon crack which i bailed out of leading and had to take a rest near the top! The first move off the deck was fine, a jug fest really, but the massive slopey holds on the last couple of moves baffled me! I didn't think grit got polished!!

Is Stanage grit any different that Roaches and windgather grit? i had a great day out there not long ago.

Agreed the V7's i have done indoors took a bit of work and did feel soft tbh, V7 outdoors? No chance!!

After mostly climbing indoors over the winter, many people find that it takes a while to shift your brain back into "real rock" mode (especially if you're doing trad and also reminding yourself how to place gear, etc.). That's not unusual.

If it's that, then just drop your grade expectations to begin with, don't stress, and build it back up again; it'll probably come back faster than you think.

I had a few months off because of illness and then being away from access to actual rocks, and now I'm flailing embarrassingly on outdoor V0s that I used to warm up on (while still being fairly strong indoors).

The only reason I'm not freaking out about it is that I've been through this cycle plenty of of times before, and I know that after a day or two more outside, something in the back of my brain will go "... oh hey yeah that's that weird outdoor rock stuff! I remember that!" and it'll all come flooding back.

Why my brain decides to mothball all my outdoor knowledge after a matter of weeks off, I have no idea, but at least by now I know that it does come back ...

You have to understand that indoor climbing is not the same as outdoor climbing. The footholds tend to be bigger and more positive, the holds are generally in about the right place you don't get numb hands - unless you're at Ratho of course. Gritstone is about as far away from most indoor walls as you can get, although I admit I've not been to any walls in the Peak so they might just be different I suppose.

Sounds like you need to climb outdoors a lot more and when you're indoors do a lot of falling off when leading. Dave McLeod recommended falling off five times a night on the lead to get any fear out of your head.

Below E2 I reckon indoor strength isn’t worth all that much, and people who do a lot of indoor climbing as beginners often have a very limited range of techniques on outdoor rock. Neil Greshams article explains why pretty well.

 The awkward features you encounter at the VS/HVS level just aren’t replicated indoors, however the technical moves off crap holds you start getting in the E2-E4 bracket are often slightly more similar to indoor problems.

Personally I’d be very surprised if you’re actually going backwards in standard. Sometimes people just have bad days or even more prolonged bad spells, but provided you stick at it then you’ll start seeing improvement again.

Being able to do a V7 indoors is pretty good going, that’s brutally strong anyway. It’ll likely just take some time to put it into practice on real stuff outdoors!

Sounds like you're strong but with little experience of different techniques and styles.  Your strength might even be hindering your progress as you learn to thug your way over problems that someone with less strength would have to do a bit more cleverly.

My internet prescription is that you need to ditch any thoughts of getting stronger, and concentrate on footwork, technique and flexibility.  Is that fair?  I dunno.

Oh grit.....you should have said earlier.  Possible to fail on anything on the stuff in my experience..don't worry about it! 

Totally agree. Early on in the year, I want lots and lots and lots of mileage, just to get the feel of being back on real rock again. How hard I can (or can't!) crimp/hang slopers has got absolutely nothing to do with it.

Obviously most (all?) of us go through times when, for whatever reason - surprisingly often, non-climbing related - we just don't climb well. (And having last year's high point as your baseline is one mighty strategic error!)  Usually best to drop down to a grade with which one is happy, enjoy it and work back up in your own time. There are fantastic routes to do at all grades.

But yes, the more times you go through these cycles, the more you smile wryly and think, "Here we go again..."  Thankfully it always seems to come back - and more.

Mick

I just don't buy that. Pure strength won't get you up a V7 (even indoor soft graded) and clever climbing wont help much on stuff you have never encountered before outdoors. The key has to be technical experience outdoors.

I've done both of those many times, most recently last autumn. Both are classic severes that really need some grit balance climbing experience. Balcony Buttress in particular is very delicate moves at the grade on polish and some rounded holds (as you say there is similar short sequence at the end of the hard climbing of Amazon Crack) that may as well be HVS if you have done little of this. Windgather is very unusual for grit having mostly postive holds (except a few scary lines on the south facing facets). Get yourself some practice on grit or font balance problems with experinced pals and these concerns will evaporate.

Replying to everyone, thanks for your help!

Ive read the Neil Gresham article, and watched his masterclass, brilliant stuff.

The indoor V7's are particularly soft ones tbh, i cant get up every V7 but most V6's.

Off to Spain on Saturday, im hoping a solid week of climbing and perseverance will steer me in the right direction....show me them 4's!

I never managed V7 indoors but did ok ish on rock so good going on the indoor bouldering so far.

Taking a rest outdoors on something easy could be anything: opportunity, feeling cold, being under the weather, getting it all wrong... it happens and it probably wouldn't have happened if you were facing a 5m jump onto your last runner vs figuring the problem out so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I'd suggest getting good at rock climbing requires both physical capability (yours should be easily convertible) and experience climbing on rock. Go do a lot of climbing, easier routes you won't get bogged down on, aim for 10 or 12 in the day rather that 4, just get used to how the rock forms and how to make best use of it.

If you're scared of falling this mileage at grades you're fairly comfortable on gives you opportunity to speed up your gear placements, work on their quality and importantly your assessment of it. It's also fun. If it's not fun find a branch of climbing that is.

jk

And try some unusual  rocktypes where strength is less important than footwork, slate and grit slabs are IMO especially useful.

Yeah, I want to second this point.

Part of my current flailing is just reminding my brain what a "foothold" means on grit, and what I can stand on with pure friction.

Stop worrying about grades - they mean not a lot when you transfer from inside to outside, as many have found, because it's different.  Mostly, the moves and holds inside are plain to see whereas outside they are not.  If you take something from your inside climbing, it should be confidence in your ability to do a move once it is known.  You therefore need to work on understanding how rock (as opposed to plastic) 'works' and work on retaining your presence of mind so that you can work things out, place gear etc without fretting too much.  Inside, practice climbing down, not as a stamina thing, but as a technique thing.  Very useful, to be able to climb up and down when you're trying to work something out.

Indeed.

I know I moan about this a lot on UKC but the crux on Balcony Buttress might correspond to a middle to tougher Depot blue problem which they say is around V2 and I would give as a V0- 4a/ f3 (consitent with BMC & YMC grit guide grades) and would be given font 2Bish in Font. Lower grade grades just don't translate properly at all, even if you are experienced; so goodness knows what it feels like if you are not.

Climbing down is a tip I've used that has helped many indoor climbers, including for better transistion to outdoors... not only does it build skill sets, it can get you out of trouble. Other tricks include climbing with hands kept below shoulder height (or even below waist height if bridging or slab balance is possible.

Climbing down seems to be a bit of a lost art, these days, almost the preserve of the ancient trad climber. I climbed down about ten feet (on a sport route) to a really good rest, several times yesterday, before eventually committing. I often reverse to a good rest on walls, yet never see anybody else do it indoors. So redolent of days of yore, placing the best wires you could get, retreating to the best rest you could find, gathering yourself, before going back up and giving it everything you sodding well had.  

Mick

Circuit boards with fig 8 loops

Have you worked on the inner game (e.g. meditation) to see if it will help you outer one?

When I started lead climbing I shot up to HVS very quickly because I had done a lot of seconding with a good partner and then I flopped about under that grade for ages. I have been spat off severes when I was regularly leading HVS and there are some VS climbs I always found a nightmare when I could climb grades far higher. That's climbing for you, some low grade climbs can feel like E2 if you are not practiced in their particular technique, or the weather is wrong or your head isn't into it that day. I have had times when I have been utterly crap interspersed with times when I've soloed E2 without blinking. The main thing is enjoyment and learning to read the rock. Indoor climbing is great for strength and stamina but is very different from climbing on rock. Summers coming if you can get out there and practice on rock. Even outdoor bouldering is better than indoor leading when it comes to learning to read rock. Also climb on as many different types of rock as you can they all have different ways to be tackled.

All of that and also when I started bouldering there were no mats... just spotters (reliable but with an occasionally cruel sense of humour)... so the skill of down-climbing outdoor problems you couldn't top out was a good idea. My first mat was a small Moon mat with a target graphics... I still use it but it looks like a postage stamp these days.

But surely you (very quickly) know what you're doing?  Also it's already set, so you're following a pattern. A rather different cognitive exercise surely from thinking, 'I'll reverse to a better rest.' Back in the day, you'd see very good trad climbers thinking nothing of reversing 10, maybe even 15 feet or more.

I guess different skills go in and out of fashion. Sprags and Harrison's moves seem rare, these days. Conversely every woman and her dog can heel-hook a million times better than me!

Mick

When we were doing Peak Rock, Phil Kelly came up with a rather lovely definition of old skool highball bouldering: "When you couldn't see your beer mat any more."

Mick

It's perfectly normal. When you've been climbing for somewhat longer you'll find that you'll have periods of highs and lows. My mentor once said to me that the difference between a professional and an amateur is that the latter may sometimes climb harder, but the professional has to be consistent. It also strikes me you are going at it too hard. Try getting out again and go walking on the hills and enjoy bad conditions as well as good. 

But it is a prime example of a Harrison's move. (And one of the best climbs of its standard at Harrisons)

So to qualify as a Harrison's move for purists, you need one hand mantling, one side-pulling (and the high foot)?

(Excuse the interrogation; I'm always keen to improve my repertoire of techniques, and wanted to make sure I've got the definition correct on this one!)

I'm old enough to well practised in down climbing, sometimes on failed solo attempts. You do see a lot of people reversing auto belay routes for stamina training, but more often than not due to the route setting this is slumping onto jugs, not quite like blindly feeling down for that elusive crucial foothold of sanctuary

Well that's always been my understanding (but I would defer to Gordon, who's a Harrison's aficionado). I'm not interested in purism but rather in what works. And, courtesy of a Harrison's move, I know that I can often go from both hands in a break to both feet in a break in seconds. Worth knowing.

Unlike Egyptians and guppies, where I had to be shown, it always seems to have been instinctive with me. In the mid-70s, in the fabled Bloat House, in the Mournes, there was an 'ancient' photo of several people on a ledge, clearly zoned out, the bow of a wind-blown rope (sans runners) and a very lonely figure on the end of it... executing a Harrisons move. Apparently there had been much speculation as to the miscreant - until someone climbed with me in the Pass and saw the same person do the same move.

Mick

It might be a Harrison's move for aficionados of that outcrop but it is a perfectly standard move in my repertoire, preferably with a sharp flake to pull on and I'm not a particularly good rock climber. Perhaps I learnt it inadvertently at Harrison's but I can't see what's special about it. 

It might be a Harrison's move for aficionados of that outcrop but it is a perfectly standard move in my repertoire, preferably with a sharp flake to pull on and I'm not a particularly good rock climber. Perhaps I learnt it inadvertently at Harrison's but I can't see what's special about it. I can show you a relatively easy Bleau problem that exemplifies it perfectly.,

Hi John, it may not necessarily be special  - but it doesn't seem to be in the standard repertoire of many people, these days. I remember, a couple of years ago, a young lad doing a F7c on an early excursion outdoors. He was warming down on another route and just couldn't link the top moves. If you did them via a Harrison's move, they were far less strenuous (and far less fluffable). He wanted some beta so I told him exactly what to do - and that they were comprised a Harrison's move - which he'd clearly never heard of. He just couldn't get his head round the notion and eventually just crimped his way to glory.

I guess I learned it (self-taught) in the Mournes, on rounded, flared horizontal breaks and vertical cracks.

Early on, I climbed with a guy called Clive Wray, who came from London and had climbed a lot at Harrisons. He had superb technical ability, probably in excess of any Irish climber at that time. (I'm afraid he regarded me as a particularly hopeless case - sorry, Clive!)  But I've since realised that people can hone superb technical ability on southern sandstone. If they handle the transition to other areas/rock types, they often become superb climbers.

Of course that won't stop us outsiders being sniffy about southern sandstone - secretly we're just jealous!

Mick  

So perhaps it is more unusual than I thought. I rember a Canadian with whom I climbed in my old age once remarking that move seemed to be a JCW speciality. 

In reply to haystack:

Turing test failed.

In reply to haystack:

That’s rich

On my third day climbing I led an E4 6a on limestone.  After 40 years I'm still trying to get back to that level!

I think your problem is wasting too much time on the wall )

What's a Harrison's move? 

Mick

Ah! You need to sample the delights of Southern Sandstone to fully appreciate the grace and technique of this wonderful manoeuvre.