UKC

winging elbows

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 gravy 26 Nov 2020

You see this a lot in comps when people get tired and I notice it at my limit but can someone explain why elbows fly out?

Presumably when less tired the move can move comfortably made with elbows in so what (mechanical) advantage does the flying elbow produce?

In reply to gravy:

I'm not sure there is any mechanical advantage,  ie with fresh muscles you would hold a conventional position on the wall. It's a consequence of the muscles failing with fatigue and transferring load elsewhere resulting in the winging position. (My unqualified guess!!! )

 Bulls Crack 26 Nov 2020
In reply to gravy:

Lift

 nniff 26 Nov 2020
In reply to gravy:

Chicken-winging is an accepted technique in steep ice-climbing.

Chicken-whingeing, on the other hand, is my normal condition.

 Ned 26 Nov 2020
In reply to gravy:

Your finger flexors are able to exert more force when they are longer. Normally we contract our extensors as well as our flexors when we're climbing, to keep the wrist stable and our flexors lengthened. When those extensors get tired we start raising our elbows as this forces our wrists into a bent back position which lengthens our flexors without using our extensors.

Whilst I've been writing this I've been playing with bending my wrist right back / raising my elbows as high as possible and my fingers naturally bend into an open hand grip shape. I can then pull down on the edge of my table pretty hard without feeling any muscle contraction at all. It also feels like it's doing something gross to my wrists / extensors which is probably why no one uses it when they're fresh.

 Michael Gordon 26 Nov 2020
In reply to nniff:

> Chicken-winging is an accepted technique in steep ice-climbing.> 

I thought it was an offwidth technique?

OP gravy 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Ned:

Now that is an explanation I can understand - thanks!

I've been struggling to identify what part of me would give way if I wasn't winging and why / how it works.  My confusion was that it is clearly the fingers that cave in but the winging seems to be utilising big muscles in the shoulder/back and I wondered if the was a postural advantage going on but your explanation of supporting tired fingers fits the bill perfectly.

So as a training pointer, what you need to train more if you need to wing is finger strength, if you wing when fatigued then endurance, if you wing to get a particular move done when not tired probably max strength?

 nniff 26 Nov 2020
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I thought it was an offwidth technique?

That too, but you'll never find me near one of those unless something has gone very wrong.

Ice - chicken wing behind an icicle that is level with/just behind you and take the strain off your forearms. 

 Ned 26 Nov 2020
In reply to gravy:

If it happens to you a lot you should train your wrist extensors. Hold a light dumbbell in your hand with the back of your hand facing up and move your wrist up and down. I remember reading something by Eric Horst about it, that might be worth googling

 john arran 26 Nov 2020
In reply to gravy:

It occurred to me some time ago that it might be a good idea to train myself to climb with elbows high, as it would appear that it's more efficient that way - on the grounds that you're still able to climb that way even when the more conventional style gives out.

But then I realised that it was much more likely the case that the elbows-out technique was using smaller and less efficient muscles, probably only able to pull for relatively few moves, but that they'd remained relatively unfatigued while climbing 'normally', so could still be relied upon to squeeze out a few moves even when the more effective muscles were wasted.


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