UKC

Anyone have any experience of zone 2 training? Trying to figure out if it would be more effective to follow a rate of perceived effort protocol or follow a heart rate monitor(not sure i want to prick myself to find my lactate level)

Have a few things in mind this year and would like to build the aerobic base back up but being a time starved father/bloody work dont want to waste my time doing junk miles, and the more i read into it the more confused i get.

In reply to Ffati1:

The peril of using perceived effort is you'll go to fast.  The peril of using HR is that you don't know really what level 2 or 3 or whtever HR's are.  

Do you know your resting pulse, max (measured not estimated) and pulse at the end of a 5k and 1/2 mar.  What exactly do you want to do?

In reply to Ffati1:

Perhaps you need to perform a threshold test and then use the relevant formula to set the zones. The one I have used is here https://support.myprocoach.net/hc/en-us/articles/360019086492

Running too fast in 'zone 2' and too slow in 'zone 4/5' resulting in so called junk miles is difficult to avoid when time pressed.

In reply to Ffati1:

Cheap and cheerful trick for regulating your effort is to run with a friend and stay on the edge of conversational pace. If you can't chat, you're likely pushing it a bit, and if you can quote war and peace you might want to pick it up a little. 

This does initially require a friend (or a healthy disregard for the opinions of strangers if you choose to talk to yourself) but after not many runs you should have a much better feel for your pace.

In reply to Ffati1:

I got a lactate test to accurately identify my zones and it really helped; my own zones are quite far off the strava / garmin pre set ones. If you have a plan and goal in mind then I'd recommend it

In reply to Ffati1:

No such thing as junk miles, you just run the risk of overtraining and ending up exhausted if you spend too many hours a week above Z2. Becomes a bit more complicated when you start to introduce HIIT ad you want to be recovered enough to hit those workouts flat out, which will be a struggle if you are fatigued.

How many hours a week are you running?

Zones aren’t real either it’s continuum.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Junk miles may be a slight misnomer but there are definitely less efficient intensities to train at. If you train just above Aerobic threshold (Z2) you will gain very little extra but significantly increase fatigue. Training is most efficient when it targets a specific energy system. Being sat on the line between the two is not an effective way of training either system.  There's a reason elite athletes ensure they are training at the correct intensity to maximise adaptions.

Zones are real in the sense that your aerobic threshold which corresponds to the top of zone 2 and your anearobic threshold which is the top of zone 4 are both very real. Training either side of the threshold will generate different adaptions and levels of fatigue

In reply to Ffati1:

You don’t need to make it complicated.  Just keep your rate of breathing similar to at rest.  One way I assess Z2 is to recite the alphabet when sat on the sofa.  Then when exercising in Z2 recite alphabet and ensure I can get within 4 letters (of at rest) before needing a breath.

In reply to Brass Nipples:

Are sure 4 is right? I believe there are trainers who insist that 6 is good enough whereas other say that your Z2 training will all be futile if can't manage 2. Training is pointless if it's not properly optimised by a suitably certified professional trainer.

In reply to Marek:

I was reading in ‘training for the uphill athlete’ Steve House suggested for consistent runners, a good way of keeping below your aerobic threshold the upper limit of Zone 2, a good way of making sure you are not overcooking is to try running breathing only through your nose. If you can maintain a steady pace without having to breathe through your mouth you should be within zone 2 as your oxygen demand would be lower at that intensity 

In reply to Bog ninja:

I used to use a "half-paces per breath" metric. 6+ was easy, 5 (2 in 3 out) was long intervals pace, 4 or less was pushing it. Totally uncertified amateur technique. But fine for me. Also found it useful in that it encouraged you to breathe properly (deeply) rather than shallow panting when under stress.

In reply to Ffati1:

I generally use RPE rather than heart rate. For the limited amount of road running I do, I also use pace. HR I find most useful for calibrating effort occasionally (if it feels easier or harder than I expect) and for post-run analysis to monitor progress. Getting familiar with RPE will help a lot with pacing races (especially ultras if that’s your plan).

For RPE, as others have said you should be able to comfortably hold a conversation if running easy (HR zone 1 & 2 in a 5-zone model). Another way of calibrating is to try eating - especially helpful if training for ultras - if you’re struggling to chew/nearly choking on an easy run, you probably need to slow down.

For setting HR zones, I use lactate (anaerobic) threshold HR, which is roughly between 10k and HM pace for most. And if using HR, make sure you’re measuring it reliably (so not wrist OHR for most people, either chest strap or - what I use and recommend - an optical arm band like the Polar Verity Sense).

Be wary of YouTubers etc claiming to offer magic bullet training or demonising particular efforts/zones. You need to maximise consistent volume, which means a lot of easier running. And ideally your quality sessions will be focused on the demands of your planned distance/race - in terms of effort, climbing, terrain etc. Depending on your planned distance this may mean a fair bit of time in zone 3!

In reply to Marek:

You’re overthinking it, go out find what works for you. You’re talking a range and not a narrow one.  

In reply to Brass Nipples:

I wasn't being serious. Really.

In reply to MarkKP:

Hi Mark, just a quick question on HR monitor. I have a chest strap but it barely lasts a year before going a bit bananas...I clean it as per instructions and have tried new batteries, ECG gel and all sorts but to no avail. It is heavily used (c40 miles per week) but I'd expect it to last longer than 14 months. This has happened 3 times with 3 different chest straps.

I'm currently using my wrist HR monitor but it is all over the place despite a snug fit so also unreliable.

Have you found the polar optical arm one to be the most reliable and how long has your Polar lasted so far?

Thanks

In reply to Ffati1:

Maybe give this a watch as an example of how much ‘effort’ it is.

https://youtu.be/1RqY5EYOM0k?si=YLAsmp3wFVgiPwU3

In reply to mountainbagger:

They wont last any longer than that, I have however found that ordering one off amazon and getting the additional 2 year warranty will mean when it finally does conk out you can get it replaced realtively easily  

In reply to Garethza:

oh so it's not just me...chest straps (or arm ones) don't typically last much more than 12-18 months anyway?

In reply to mountainbagger:

Not for me atleast! I have tried the expensive garmin ones but they last the least amount of time. The Wahoo Tickr is my go to now as its a simple design, fairly cheap and seems to last the longest.  

In reply to mountainbagger:

The strap or the electronic part. 

My polar h10 is good after probably 6 years of so, but I'm on the 3rd elastic. That's only £12 a shot though. 

The Garmin one I had didn't last and suunto ones would break easily. 

Wahoo had an odd elastic strap, which I never found a replacement for

In reply to Dave B:

H10.... works well fir me

I think my batteries last better if I detach the module from the strap when I'm not using it.

In reply to Dave B:

Wahoo, Garmin and Polar all use the same stud spacing. I bought 2 generic straps from Amazon for my Wahoo Tickr V1. the electronics pod is still going strong after 4 years use nearly every day.

I can confirm the batteries last months longer if you unclip one of the studs from  from the strap after use. 

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Theoretically the wahoo does, but the one I had never seemed to work with a polar strap properly.. it unclipped itself. Unclipping one side or completely is the key to good battery life I agree.

In reply to Marek:

If that was true none of the thousands of runners who don't use professionals trainers would ever see any improvement.

You do not have to throw money at everything.

In reply to Marek:

I just count.

When I'm in zone 2 my steps are the dominant thing that gets counted, as I move into Z3 and breathing naturally becomes more of a focus I subconsciously switch to counting my breaths.

If I find myself counting telephone poles I know that I'm riding in a car

In reply to timjones:

Sign. I was obvious trying to be too subtle with my attempt at parody/humour.