UKC

The race has been running for nearly 40 years, and has now had to be cancelled because of access issues in the Pentlands, due to a new landmanager association (PLMA) that was created during the pandemic. 

http://carnethy.com/pentland-skyline-race-2023-why-we-have-cancelled/

So in typical fashion...If anyone is free on the 8th of October, and would like to 'exercise their rights' as an individual hill runner - please feel free to join in on a lap of this lovely route! 

This is a brilliant hard race over all the peaks of the Pentlands. These hills are on the doorstep of large center's of population, and have been used for outdoor activities for years.

That a group of privileged rich land owners can cause this race (and the Carnethy 5) to be cancelled is appalling. 

I have run this race and walked in the Pentlands. The damage is minimal and confined to very small areas.

Please support the fight against these rich, greedy privileged bastards.

Whilst disappointed about the decision and what lies behind it, that Carnethy posts points us to this being addressed through pursuit of clarity on governing law and codes rather than any colourful expression of outrage.

I do like the idea of making this an example of the Streisand effect though.  I usually run the route every couple of months and next time might fall on that day.

I know that one running club which usually has a Sunday morning run is planning an awayday to the Pentlands on October 8. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't other clubs planning something similar.

It looks like there are normally 200-300 runners in this race. It would be rather amusing if thousands of people just turned up for a run round those particular hills on that day.

There have been several orienteering events over the years around there too, I'm sure as work spreads there will be a few out for a little training run on the 8th. 

The orienteering takes place on the northern slopes, overlooking Edinburgh. Much of the land there is owned by the MoD who are not in the group trying to gouge £5 a runner off of Carnethy so there is room for optimism that orienteering may not be affected.

Actually, the MOD are just as bad. There's a trail half marathon through the Pentlands ( The 7 Reservoirs ) which crosses MOD land and the MOD are now demanding a fee which equates to £7 per runner. They are just one of the landowners.

The whole ethos of the 7 Resevoirs race was to give as much money as possible to local charities, this year if the race can go ahead, there'll be bugger all left for the charities unless the race entry fees shoot up.

There are a few areas lost to orienteering because of these fees - a notorious example is a JK venue that never got used again because multiple landowners wanting a fee, and one having a "ransom strip" small area down the middle of the forest.

I think the problem is some commercial events are for profit (and set their entry fees accordingly) but there is clearly no distinction between that and a smaller club run event that is not trying to make a profit ie. the skyline or this 7 reservoirs race.

Very sad news.

If I weren't at work then I'd be showing up for the run; I hope there is an unofficial, unorganised record turnout.

The Americans call this a Fat Ass run - an unofficial race with no markings, entry fees, official finish times, etc.  I hope it's suitably well attended.  The club could do it as a virtual race with private individuals recording their times, just for good measure.

Sigh, everything has to be monetised doesn’t it. One of the reasons I love fell racing is the low key setup, a reminder of simpler times. No disrespect to race organisers and the hoops they jump through but there’s nothing better than deciding on the day to race, throw a few quid into a plastic container and fill in a brief form in a village hall or crappy car park. 

An ultra I’m involved in politely told the forestry we’d be passing through (several hours in, widely spread out). They still wanted a fee per runner, for using the land we collectively own. I’m not sure we replied 😁
 

Yes, we need more wild areas owned by the public over which you can only organise not for profit events?

The battles that Orienteering has had over the years with The Forestry.  I used to hate having to pay an access fee, something I would never do otherwise.  

The contrast between these sports with their affordable entry fees and things like the road marathons and adventure races is stark - unfortunately the expensive  sports are applying inflationary pressure.   The similarities between this and the hostels thread are there.

I think that’s exactly what’s happened, commercial events in the same space have created a revenue expectation. parkrun must have better powers of persuasion 

Many private estates, utility companies are now easier to deal with than the forestry commission/NT, councils etc..., it's not like there's anything related to liability insurance, it's just money grabbing on land that's already open for public access. 

Parkrun have had their battles of course, what was the event near Bristol that they ended because the Parish Council? wanted a fee? I guess things like parkrun can still bring in revenue through filling car parks at times that would ordinarily be quite quiet. UU are a big land owner around us and we need their permission for a few fell races we organise and they are generally really good.

The Scottish access legislation under the Land Reform Act allows for events, including commerical ones, to take place therefore they are as of right. It is beyond argument that access rights apply over the Pentlands so landowners, either private or public, cannot give or deny permission to run, nor can they charge for runners (or walkers or cyclists or horseriders for that matter) for exercising their rights and crossing land that they own. They can charge for things like car parking, vehicular access and any infrastructure on their land that is outwith the pure action of taking access (feed stations, medical facilities, gazebos, start/ finish lines etc. etc.) 

Scotland's National Access Forum has good guidance on how to manage an event and good relations with landowners is key, as is plenty of forward planning to mitigate any issues relating to land management, conservation or impact on others. The problem is that even when a club like Carnethy does all this and provides information and plans to reduce impacts, landowners think they can just turn round and say no. They can't - but rely on organisations backing down when threatened. 

I really hope that more runners than the 200 cap Carnethy were proposing turn up on the 8th October. I'm tempted to myself.

Aye,

Davie

Please post on here as to how the day goes etc. I'm not a runner but think it's great what you are doing! 

Given the direction of travel in Scotland regarding access currently we’d be right to be concerned. However a quick look at the Pentlandite website reveals this:

”

The Green Cleugh path is part of a network of around 100km of core paths through the hills, which City of Edinburgh council, as managers of the Pentland Hills Regional Park (PHRP), established and pledged to maintain when the Regional Park was created in the 1980s. Unfortunately funding for the Park is only a fraction of what it was when it was established and visitor numbers have increased rapidly. The funding available is not enough to keep abreast of repairs and the network of core paths continues to degrade.

The PLMA is now asking competitors in organised events in the Pentlands to donate a modest amount per head to the PLMA to help us to repair and maintain paths that are affected by high footfall such as the example above. 

As farmers and land managers we are in a position to be able to act quickly as we often have the right tools and materials to hand and we are not bound by the protracted procurement rules in the public sector. The PLMA pledge that funds from events shall be ring-fenced for work conducted towards either biodiversity or infrastructure projects within the PLMA members’ land area as and where the need arises. Our membership comprises landowners and land managers who represent over 80% of the Pentland Hills Regional Park. As such, we are uniquely positioned to promise and deliver this.

Not especially combative language. It could of course be composed of horse manure but it might be helpful to hear more about the negotiations that failed before engaging in escalatory gestures. In the wreckage of our current public sector finances the chances of local or central government support for path maintenance is pretty dismal and supporting an initiative along the lines of the “it’s up to us” campaign by MS might be more positive? My disclaimer is that I have no local knowledge of either side of the issue.

Statements from both parties in September issue of Currie & Balerno News (page 17): https://candbnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/CB-News-489-Sep-23-Web.pdf

Both quite conciliatory in tone, doesn't really explain why negotiations broke down. 

Bumping this so it doesn’t get archived before the day of the event 

good idea!

but on the other hand Carnethy say " However a donation that is not voluntary, where it has been made very clear that if we were not to pay it then permission would be denied, well that is a demand for payment for access, no matter what the money might be used for."

Hi all, I'm Joel, the Skyline Race event organiser and have been in the middle of all the challenges the race has been presented with over the past year for more. I won't go over all the reasons again, I tried to do that in the open letter published on the Carnethy website, linked to at the top of the topic. But to address a couple of the comments made above.

The PLMA have been perfectly civil through all the discussions around the event trying to get permission from the PLMA. The article in the Currie and Balerno News reflects this. However, it is easy to be civil when the outcome has no impact on you and you are in a position of self appointed authority. The discussions for the 2023 race started before last years race. The 2022 race was only given permission by the PLMA six days before the race, despite being informed of the 2022 date a year earlier, and all the paper work submitted in April 2022. We pulled the plug back in July this year to avoid being placed in the same position, and we were heading straight for it. Permission was being denied, and the demands by the PLMA mounting.

To be honest, making donations to the upkeep of the Pentlands has never been a problem, and Carnethy Hill Running Club has made substantial donations to the park authorities (PHRP), the charity Friends of the Pentlands, Tweed Valley MRT and more for many years. And yes, last year we 'donated' £1230 to the PLMA. That last donation was a payment for access for the Skyline race. We had to agree to make it before permission was granted, and the PLMA invoiced us for it. We have no proof of where that money went, and when pressed the PLMA are extremely vague about how it is used, and who gets to decide how it is used. When we have donated to the PHRP and FotP, we have seen the gates, paths and bridges that have been repaired. The PLMA when pressed could not say where our money had been used, or when. 

The MoD have also demanded payment, but gave permission to cross their land in less than a week. Whether that permission is necessary is another matter.

The final straw back in July, as I explained in the open letter, was a meeting with the PLMA, PHRP and Scottish Athletics which was also very civil. The PLMA expressed a desire to get it all sorted out so everybody could move on. They did move fast, that evening I received an email saying that if we agreed to all their demands they would 'advise their members that permission should be granted'. They added more demands to their previous list, which included not being allowed on two hills and a ridiculous diversion across a third hill. Even if we had agreed to it, more demands could, and from previous evidence, would have been made later. Permission was not being granted, only advised. 

This speaks to the comments about negotiations made in the thread. There have been no negotiations. I spent almost a year offering compromises and ways to meet their concerns. I suggested ways we could work together to educate and inform the running community. I prepared risk assessments and environmental impact assessments and revisions to meet their demands. At no point did the PLMA compromise on a single issue. None. Actually, that's not quite true, I thought they had compromised on the route over South Black Hill, but then they withdrew permission to go over South Black at all. So in the end, they made no compromises and kept adding to the demands until the end.

Oh, and the photo supplied by the PLMA for that C&B news article, showing a muddy path through bog - that route was one enforced on the race by the land manager in earlier years. The only time that route is taken is during the Skyline race, it is pretty undesirable at any other time. It has to be marked out again for each race because it has entirely disappeared by the following year. A truly sustainable route. 

This whole permissions and payment for access issue is now at a much higher level, and I hope we can get some clarity over the coming months on just what authority land managers have to deny events permission, or if permission is even required, for low key events that cause zero unsustainable environmental impact.

I'm hoping that I get to discuss this with lots of people on the 8th October. If everybody turns up who says that they will then The Steading is going to be very busy indeed. If you do exercise your right to walk/run/cycle in the Pentland Hills before hand, especially on the sensitive areas around South Black, Hare Hill and Black Hill, then please do so responsibly. Go out, enjoy exercising your rights as individuals and clubs under the wonderful Outdoor Access laws we have here in Scotland, and see me in the pub afterwards.

Some links to articles. The two articles on The Ferret (also in The National) have looked at the wider problem.

https://theferret.scot/public-bodies-urged-ditch-access-fee-running-events/

https://theferret.scot/access-fees-and-rules-pentland-event-cancellations/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/landowners-group-forces-scottish-running...

Thanks for bringing clarity to this very important issue. I'm not a Carnethy member nor even really a hill runner but I intend to be out with you on the 8th.

Did this happen... just curious as I thought it was a great idea

Euge

The day coincided with severe weather warnings across much of Scotland. 

It's ironic it probably would have been cancelled anyway. I wonder what will happen in the future - is there any information about that? 

Yes, I was there! Number I heard was about 175 people running. Weather was actually fairly good too.

Glad to hear everyone got out and had a nice run.  The behaviour of the landowners in this is terrible.  Hopefully things can be sorted it.  It would be sad to loose another club race.