UKC

Hello all,

I am off to do the haute route in a few weeks and i would like to pick your collective brains on a few things.

normal ski touring kit

my first wonder is clothing: i am of the 'leave everything behind that is not needed' train of thought. So not taking shoes, using boot inner in the huts. thinking of not taking trousers, just a thin pair of shorts to wear over my thermals (for others sake). Not taking a down jacket (presume the huts are warm). Will buy a t shirt at the end to wear back home.

I have read on here peope talking of carrying extra wax to stop the snow balling up. Can any one explain this to me, is the snow balling up inbetween the ski and skin (thus the new wax on the ski base aids in the stickyness of the skin) or something completely different.

Any other pearls of advise, lessons learnt from previous ski tours etc.... this is my first tour of this size so am interested in any way in which i can make my life easier.

Thank you in advance

Dave

In reply to Dnwsmith:

Can't comment on all, as haven't done the HR...

For wax, it's for the bottom of the skin... Often called such stuff as Glog Stopper (Black Diamond sells that).

I'd also take some troos and downjacket with me. The nights can be cold, and the weather might not co-operate... What happens if you get stuck with just thermals and shorts?

In reply to Dnwsmith:

You ski the whole route in skins? Surely there are stretches where you'd be better with wax and/or klister? And if you used wax, you'll need different types for different snows to stop balling.

In reply to Kinley: Have you ski toured in the Alps ? on routes such as the Haute Route its normal to use skins for all the climbing & flats, especailly as most skiers are on AT gear & have no idea of how to use kick waxes.

To Dnwsmith, I'd think about two types of wax, one to stop your skins balling up (snow sticking to the underneath so your skis become very heavy & don't glide in either direction), the other to increase glide/stop your skis balling up in damp heavy snow when skiing downhill (Colltex 'speedwax' is quite good but there are others). You shoudn't need much and a tube between the party should be sufficient.

As for clothes, I'd take the minimum. For the last couple of years I've mostly skied in a pair of powerstretch tights which are OK without needing shorts & only wearing gortex over salopettes when really needed.

In reply to Doug:

I've only toured in the Black Forest and Norway, but it must be knackering doing the whole route in skins! I have spent a few days hill climbing in skins, and the trek in and out was murder.

In reply to Kinley: The Haute Route, and the Alpes in general, is very different terrain to the Black Forest or most of Norway. Its very much up or down for the most part & much of the up is too steep for climbing on waxes (even if alpine skiers knew what they were). Guidebooks often don't even bother to give the distance of a tour, just the vertical interval to climbed, which for a typical day on the Haute Route is likely to be 1 000m plus

In reply to Kinley:

I've done ski touring in Scandinavia and Alps. Both are totally different worlds and require different approach. There's no point to take AT gear for classic ski tours in Sweden or Norway like there's no point to take "traditional" ski touring gear for classic ski tours of the Alps.

In reply to Juki:

Why not? I have Atomic 'fjellskis', and happily put skins on when the ground is steep. This means when the going is flat or downhill I can take them off, wax up and glide or telemark.

In reply to Kinley:

That last post sounds a bit arsey. I don't know how steep the climbs/ descents on the Haut Route are, so I can't argue either way. But I have used my skis for some pretty steep hills in Norway.

In reply to Dnwsmith: It was on holiday last week, they gave good advice, for a television programme.

In reply to Kinley: You could do the Haute Route on those skis, but you'd have to be a pretty good skier to cope with the downhills in anything other than ideal snow conditions.

(I have skied the Haute Route on telemark skis but wider than yours & single cambered, I did take some kick wax thinking it might be useful on long flats but never used it. I've also toured in Norway in places such as Jotunheim & Dovrefjell on your style of skis, its not the same terrain)

In reply to Dnwsmith:
Ditch the shorts. It's normal to strut around in leggings! Keep the down jacket, you'll prob be glad of it in the evenings, but i should imagine you'll have some very early starts & it could be very cold. Plus, you'd certainly be glad of it if you had an accident and were immobile for any length of time.

A friend had an accident recently on a sunny day, and he didn't get off the mountain until 11pm after a complicated rescue - without the loan of his (better-prepared) partner's down jacket he'd have been in a very bad way.

Ignore the previous arguments about waxing skis - some people are talking about a diff type of touring which, as Juki rightly says, you don't need to worry about for the Alps.

I haven't personally needed to wax my skins during a tour. But my touring partner had real problems once, and we hadn't come prepared with wax. We nicked a candle from one of the huts and a vigorous rub on the skins every morning sorted it all out!

Have fun, it's a great tour.

In reply to Dnwsmith:
Huts seem to be always cold during night and early morning so recommend merino wool base layer, top and long johns.
Also recommend decent salopettes e.g. Mountain Equipment G2 pants, wear in huts. Hat + set of gloves with inners to use alone if hot.
I use Rab Vapor Rise jacket and possibly a light waterproof, e.g. Rab Latok Alpine as VR isn't waterproof if you are walking out in drizzle as I did last season. That's about it + spare underwear.
Oh and wet wipes are good as well as wax ear plugs.
Never needed skin wax but have taken Nikwax 'ski skin proof' in case.
HTH Mike

In reply to Mikek:

Did it 2 years ago. take down jacket. no shoes (huts have slippers). wet wipes excellent as is vaseline. Lightest gear possible (eg. axe, crampons, waterprofs). got away with schoeller trs (shell useful if weather awful but i would say not esential). windproof gloves and a waterproof shell/mitts. Lightweight shorts potentially useful. rab vapour rise for comfort in all but worst weather and merino top/leggings excellent to allay the smell factor. Spare pair of socks. rest of gear split between group e.g. GPS, maps, toothpaste, talc, 1x skinny 60m rope (col du chardonnet possible in lond abseil on doubled 60m rope). Any other questions email me direct.

James

In reply to Dnwsmith: Here's an article about it http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=176

Your leg wear needs to be warmer than that - you'll get caught in shitty weather a tsome stage for sure.

Only other pearl of wisdom is get fit beforehand, and know the route like the back of your hand from a map.

Any other questions, email me.

In reply to Dnwsmith: Also, there's a photo of the neckiest non-skiing bit on my profile, the traverse to Plateau du Couloir. how good a skier are you? I was then and still am now very village - I struggle to get dwon black runs but still got on ok. My one bone about it is that it's not a skiing trip, it's a mountaineering trip in the alps in winter that you happen to do a large proportion of on skis. Make sure you everyone in your team can lok after themselves in the alps in winter. Good luck.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

thanks everyone for replies:

the shorts i think have confused people, these are purely for wearing in the huts, during day i have my patagonia mix masters to ski in.

wax wise again a little confusion: i have salomon pocket rockets with fritschi freerides, these bad boys will have skins firmly strapped to the bottoms for the ups!

Thank you for the advise of the down jacket, noted and it has been added to my bag.

Doug: i will investigate into the wax, the only problems i have ever had with skins was when they got wet and everything stuck to them, scrapped it all off/down with a credit card, is this were the wax comes onto play? would it have kinda reproofed them?

Ski wise not a problem, 5 seasons, and been skiing since i was 3. Steeper the better! I am trying to promote a new style of skiing..... ETO .......... (essential turns only) a new stlye that has seen many long rag dolls down numerous steep coloiurs in and around Chamonix.

What about ice brakes for the skies ( forgot there proper name) do people who have done this route think these are worht taking? presume if it gets to icy, one would just throw skies on back and wear crampons?

thanks again all.

In reply to Dnwsmith: The trouble comes with skins that get wet at some point, maybe as the snow is very humid & then you have to skin over colder snow & they just ball up. It seems to effect some makes of skins worse than others & be worse with old skins. A candle rubbed over the skin can often cure the problem.

As for clothing, I think I had powerstretch tights & an Odlo fleecy shirt, together with & thinnish fleece jacket and lightweight goretex salopettes & jacket, plus gloves, fleecy hat, etc. I had a lightweight duvet (Rab smock style) but the only time I wore it was goinfg out to the toilets at the Vignettes but it weighs little & would have been useful if we'd got stuck somewhere. We had both extremes of weather, skiing in shirtsleeves & sweating profusely at the start and -20° C & windy going over the Pointe d'Arolla

In reply to Dnwsmith:

I'd definately get couteaux/harshein/ice brakes/ski crampons. Make a massive difference and will mean you'll move a lot quicker than talking your skis off and hiking up. Pretty vital imo.

As to the skin wax, worth it if your skins are old, stops them balling up. I've had a few problems when it's been really sunny and the snow is wet, you ski into the shade and the cold snow frezzes all the damp snow on your skins. Easy to get off (use the other ski) but a right pain.

In reply to Doug:

boughtnew skins last season, so are pretty new: btu will take some wax with me jsut in case, thank you very much for the info. mucho appreciated.

In reply to galpinos:

think you are right, will take mine along with me.

again, mucho appreciated for the advise.

getting excited now!

In reply to Dnwsmith: Glopstopper wax came in useful when we were slogging up the Otemma glacier in blazing sunshine. Don't forget to take some very good sun block and to put it on your forearms if you roll up your sleeves! Book your huts early, we didn't and had to use the Bouquetin hut which is very nice but we hadn't brought food for this scenario.

In reply to Guy:

strong sun block..... tick.

thank you

In reply to Dnwsmith:

I used skins. As has been said it is very up and down. You need to be a very good skier to cope with turns in deep snow whilst carrying a heavy pack (which tends to want to keep going straight on!) We found that we were doing a lot of long traverses with kick turns at each return when wearing the packs.

I agree with the comment about the huts being cold, although we were the first party of the season and found a couple heavily snowed up, even with snow having blown in requiring digging out. Locating and then digging out a path to the latrines was another problem on arrival.

Enjoy!

In reply to Trangia: I've been the first party to use a hut after the winter & they can be very cold, but my experience of huts on the Haute Route during the 'high season' (late March/April) is that the huts tend to be quite full & thus reasonably warm, at least in the communal part.

Not clothes as such, but would recommend a silk sleeping bag liner - weighs a few grams & makes sleeping with itchy hut blankets much more pleasant

In reply to Dnwsmith:
You probably know this already but just to make sure. Buy one of there:
http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr/gp/asp/f_scateg.asp?codctg=933

Silk liner is much lighter, takes less space and feels nice. And is more expensive

In reply to Dnwsmith:
This is the cheap and easy option:
http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr/gp/asp/produit.asp?codprd=102144

More expensive and a bit more difficult to use:
http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr/gp/asp/produit.asp?codprd=102141

These two products are used to prevent snow balling up on the skin. Not between skins and ski but under the skin. Mohair skins are more prone to this problem than nylon skins.

Don't get confused with these:
http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr/gp/asp/produit.asp?codprd=102129

This is "emergency glue" for skins.

In reply to Doug:

Doug,

Silk sleeping bag liner...... Tick.

good shout.

cheers

In reply to Dnwsmith:

Also a cap/sunhat. I burnt my head skinning in the sun, aparently my hair is thinning but i looks fine to me , and ended up having to keep a hat on depite being down to a thermal with sleeves rolled up. This lead to a lot of sweating my tits off and a lot of suncream dripping into my eyes.

In reply to galpinos:

anotehr good idea.

i thank you and will include one.

In reply to galpinos: I find a cotton baseball type cap good for skinning as it helps with the glare too & also useful for us spectacle wearers if the weather turns snowy/rainy.

If you are really sensitive to the sun, add a white hanky for the 'Laurence of Arabia' look

In reply to Doug:

Yep. I've bought a crappy cap that I can role up and stuff in the bottom of a sack. I'll egt my monies worth out of it soon when I'm a full paid up baldie.

In general:

Someone said you need to be good skiing with a heavy sack on. I don't agree. If you've got a heavy sack you've got too much stuff. (30/35L is fine)

In reply to galpinos: Yeah fine, a heavy sack=too much stuff, but with winter clothing/crampons/odds and sodds/harness/gear/axe/hill food for 3 or 4 days/water/rope etc it's still going to weigh in the region of 10kg. Which is 10 kg more than you carry on a day piste bashing, the *relative difference* of 10kg does make a reasonable difference to skiing: there is quite a difference in centre of gravity even with 10kg. All IMHO....

In reply to nickinscottishmountains: My shoulders ache just at the thought of the 20 kg or thereabouts sac I carried in Canada on an 8 day trip in the Rockies - huts with stoves but had to carry fuel & food & all water was from melted snow. Add gear for glaciers, plus ax & crampons & the sac gets heavy. By contrast European hut to hut skiing with meals in huts is lightweight even at 10 kg

In reply to Doug:

We tried very hard to get the weight down, but with clothes, food , sleeping bag liners, ice axes, crampons, rope, sac etc struggled to get much under 15 kg each. Then add the weight of skis....

Admittably this was quite a few years ago and modern equipment is lighter.

In reply to Dnwsmith:
Dont' bother with the down jacket, get a lightweight microfleece top for extra warmth.

No need to carry 3-4 days food, or any food at all. The huts are all guarded in the winter and provide hearty (if somewhat stodgy) food. You can buy Mars bars etc in the huts for the hill. You will have early starts and will be back in a hut by 2.30-3.00 most days.

French hut slippers are the pits. You can never find a pair in your own size. If you have a pair of lightweight felt mules or such, take them instead.

When you arrive at the huts, take your boot liners out and take them with you into your dorm. They have a nasty habit of going walkies (by mistake usually).

Sanitation at some of the huts is non-existent. (And I mean no water, just snowmelt if you're lucky) You may want to take a small plastic bottle of all-purpose soap or something.

Silk liner is a good idea, as is ear plugs. Head torch is essential!

Think light and you'll enjoy the tour a lot more.

In reply to Doug: Yes, I agree. O'Connor reckons in the preface to his book that you can get it down to 12 kg, I was definitely carrying more than that when we did HR. Although one of the three of us on that trip myseriously never seems to end up carrying the rope......

In reply to craigloon:
My point was not 3-4 days of breakfast and supper, but 3-4 days of hill snack food. Yes, there is the option of buying in the huts, but it's spenny and you can't get anything other than chocolate and I think it's wroth taking something different.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

It's certainly changed since I did it in March 1966. Some of the huts were unmanned then at that time of year or had only just opened. We arrived at the Cab de Vignettes at the same time as the Warden and had to help him dig it out. The blankets were damp in all of the huts which made sleeping very cold. We seemed to be the first party through and didn't meet any others doing the Route.

In reply to Dnwsmith: I would tak a spare pair of undies Mr Betty Swollocks. And non chocolate based snacks for lazarooni or she'll need several spare pairs of undies.

In reply to Trangia: 1966?? Did maps actually exist in those days? Were they inked on papyrus?