UKC

Hi,

Back from a trad course, I learned how to bottom and top rope set up and im happy with those. But the instructor also showed us how to set up an abseil. I only took the one image and having trouble remembering the set up.

It was find two bomber anchor points with nuts/hex (suited the location), I think a bite of rope, fig 8 into one anchor, then clip into second - this is where I get lost - I remember him saying it was very important to have FOUR strands of rope when doing the big figure 8 as shown in the pic  [he said some called it a European death knot? ]. Does anyone know of a video that shows this set up ? Everything I look for is something different was just hoping to see what I saw that day.

Sounds like some ideas are being confused here. Essentially this is just a top rope anchor with a clovehitch to rig the abseil line.

Bottom left corner is to probably a figure of 8 on a bite.

From there a loop back to the second anchor and all tied together in a bfk (big friendly/ing knot) with a the spare strand being used to rig the abseil line.

Some points to add.

This is a way of doing it, it's perfectly safe but not the most efficient/straightforward. There was a recent thread about different methods for creating a fixed abseil recently. 

European death knot is an overhand used to join two ropes together to abseil. Perfectly safe and common practice.

Hi! Hope you enjoyed your trad intro and that it sets the basis for a long and happy climbing career

So this set up is pretty niche- think abseiling into a sea cliff where you intend to do multiple climbs and abseils over the course of a day. Looks like your instructor used a static/ semi static rope and a rope protector- both good ideas in this context.

1. Tie the top end of the rope into the first (furthest away) piece of gear.

2. Clip the rope into the second (closer) piece of gear.

3. Grab the rope between the two pieces of gear, as well as the rope on the other side of the second piece of gear. Pull these (feeding rope through as necessary) in the direction that you intend to abseil. Stop once the angles are good and you have accounted for the extra length of rope needed for the figure of 8.

4. Tie the figure of 8 using the 4 strands. You will have 2 strands from the section of rope between the two placements, plus a third strand from the other side of the second gear placement. To make the 4th strand, double the third strand up by folding it back on itself.

5. You have now created an equalised anchor. Clip a screwgate through the two loops of the fig 8 bight.

6. Now you still have a lot of rope left, so you can use it to serve two purposes. The first is to connect and equalise your gear placements (done already), and the second is as the abseil rope. To do this, take the 4th strand from the fig 8 (which is very long, slack, and not connected to any gear), leave a short length (arm length?) of slack and then tie it to the screwgate with a clove hitch.

7. Protect the edge of the abseil with a rope protector if necessary and remember to tie a knot in the end of the rope before you throw it.

I am assuming you got a comprehensive instruction on assessment of gear placements, risks involved with abseiling etc. Abseiling is one of the most risky bits of climbing- don't take it lightly and if you want to get into climbing seriously I recommend seeking further instruction and studying Andy Kirkpatrick's book "Down".

It looks complicated because you are using the same rope for both abseil and anchor.  Imagine just the single short rope (say 4m) for the anchor with a loose end after the big figure eight.  Then you get your differently coloured other rope and attach to the screw gate.  Ta daaa.  I would probably use a figure eight if it's a different rope though.  All he's done is use the spare end of anchor rope as an ab rope a it's probably 50m long, which means there's a curve of rope that's not really part of the set-up going from the anchor to the clove hitch (photo right and off image).

Two bomber placements on a real sea cliff.  Nah ... A skinny crack and a wobbly block more like 😅

I'm not sure the nickname "European death knot" deserves repeating tbh as it just seems to create unnecessary confusion in a situation where you really don't want it. 

I read once that joining ropes with a fig 8 on a bight was also once given this nickname which might have made more sense as that is a more dangerous and less stable choice. Whichever is/was right, it's just unnecessary confusion at this stage.

I wonder whether it originated as some childish retort to the "American Death Triangle", which as an anchor lacking any redundancy, is more deserving of a sinister name.

edit, The knot in your photo is not an EDK by either of the definitions I've heard before anyway, more confusion... It looks like what I and others have referred to as a BFK (a big fat knot) which is basically an overhand on a number of bights and can be bigger and fatter to incorporate as many anchors as you like. You are not limited to 2. 

Joining ropes with a figure of 8 on a bight is indeed a very bad idea. I recall an account of a climber in Zion NP who died when the abseil  ropes separated using this knot.

If you play around with this knot you can see how the knot rolls under load.

I think the general consensus is a single overhand with longish tails is the best knot for joining abseil ropes. Not prone to rolling and compact enough to resist jamming when pulling down.

The "European Death Knot" is the offset figure of eight used to join two abseil ropes. A cross-loaded Fo8 will roll over at about 2.5KN, not impossible to reach with a bit of bouncing while loaded with gear. Counter intuitively, the offset overhand is stable under cross-loading up to about 5KN. To be doubly sure one of the tails can be taken round and through a second time to create a Half-Gibbs knot (see Andy Kershaw's excellent book "Down" mentioned above). Much better than the old method of tying the two tails to make a stopper knot. 

I think you mean Andy Kirkpatrick.

Anyway a link to his thoughts about abbing and knots for joining two ropes here...

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/blog/view/rappel-knots-1

BTW it was the Americans who first named the OH knot,  the European Death Knot.

The EDK is an offset overhand bend not an offset figure eight bend.