UKC

i been getting some instructing from the indoor climbing wall instructor who told us when setting up a retreivable abseil its best to simply throw the rope over a bomber provided that the rope won't or shouldn't jam. he also advised packing mud or moss around the boulder to help the rope slip around the rock when retreiving the rope after. alternativly and more expensive way it to sacrific a sling or idealy and old piece of tat (rope). i've seen demos in books showing this but they never insisted on sacrificing a krab aswell. some guys at the indoor wall was helping me and giving some great advise but they said never do this without the krab in the sling cos you will damage the rope by friction generated heat when retreiving the rope. i have no problem sacrificing gear if it compromises safety. just would like to hear other folks option.

In reply to cole:
but they said never do this without the krab in the sling cos you will damage the rope by friction generated heat when retreiving the rope.

you will be down on the ground at that stage certainly not using the sling again so it would only potentially affect someone else following you and they should replace existing tat anyway.

In reply to cole: Whenever I have had to do an ab that required a sling, I have always used my own as my life is worth a least that much! I might usually link it with any other tat that might be there but my weight is on my sling. A no brainer really. Just look at all the abseiling accidents there have been. Once when topping out on Dow a chap was belaying his second and his belay, a sling over a big rounded boulder was about to slip off. I said nothing but reset the sling so it was safe. I have also seen this setup nearly fail on the Idwal Slabs but this time as the second hadn't started climbing I mentioned that he should check his belay. As a rule of thumb, if you wouldn't ab of some gear, then you should certainly not be belaying off it!

In reply to cole:
I can understand what has been said to you but it has to be in the right context. If for example you were abseiling onto a sea platform while sea cliff climbing, and you'd be using the same abb point several times in the day then yes, a crab MUST be used or you will weaken the sling.
A lot of abseils are in the mountains though and you leave the sling/tat behind. As already said, the time when the sling is exposed to damage by heat is when you are already down. After that, its not your concern. Yes you have littered up the mountains but climbers generally have an acceptance of this. If the sling you have left behind is damaged and it worries you, don't! Every climber decides for him/her self that they are exposing themselves to danger everytime they go out playing. Experienced climbers wishing to abb off the block that you built your abb from would inspect the sling you left behind, they would cut it off and use their own if they suspect the slightest damage. If they don't they are fools. This process goes on all year with tat being left and replaced shortly afterwards.
What I can't understand is why some folks get to an abb station and see 4 or 5 different bits of tat/rope and decide to back it all up with yet more tat! WTF?! Cut it all off and just leave your new stuff! I beleive this is an acceptable ethic- if possible, remove more tat than you leave.
When climbing a lot in the mountains it makes sense to carry some tat with you. 3m of 7 or 8mm static is useful for alsorts of tasks rather than just abbing off and its generally cheaper than using slings.
Some abb 'stations' like the one on top of Gimmer crag for example, are a semi-permanent fixture. The Gimmer one is a heavy duty chain.
I've not heard of moss and mud! Take care, abseiling is extremely dangerous if you don't get it right. I'm fairly sure that more climbers have been killed abseiling than actually climbing. Hope this helps.

In reply to cole:

That's a new one on me.


Depends on the situation. There's no problem going directly off a block if you're certain the rope will pull - often the thing to do is for the first person down to test this before the 2nd guy abs.

Using a sling with or without a krab - again its a judgement call. If its an obvious ab spot and you think others will use it, then carrying old krabs or maillons for such occasions can be worth it.

In reply to cole: There are not many situations where you will be able to pull the rope if it is passed round a boulder. With regard to passing the rope directly through a sling, this is not a problem. The heat damage will be to the sling which is not moving, the rope will be fine. Sometimes even this can be problematical from a rope recovery point of view and in these situations it is better to sacrifice a karabiner or maillion. Packing the boulder with moss and mud sounds like b*ll*cks.

Al

In reply to cole:


It's rare to be able to ab off a boulder or spike without jamming the rope (trees work well but take harm from regular use). I'd not bother with moss or mud, you'll just waste time, make a mess *then* jam your rope. Test the rope pulls properly once the ab is fully set up.


You won't melt or harm your rope pulling it through a sling or cord ab anchor. You will damage the anchor, usually the damage from each pull is insignificant if you pull the rope slowly and it runs freely but if it binds you can wear the sling/tat out. This isn't a problem if you're bailing and abandoning kit but it is a good reason to inspect fixed rope belays and not to steal in-situ krabs/maillions. If you really *need* to get down in a hurry then a krab is a good safeguard against a jammed rope, if not it's a wasted couple of quid.

jk

In reply to cole:

Just in case it's not totally obvious: I'm talking only about abseiling, NOT about lowering!

In reply to jkarran:

On another point of order, even if the rope can be freed if you ab off a rock spike, you need to watch out for sharp edges which can damage the core of your rope. Happened to me at Tremadog. Retrieved the rope to find a massive kink where it had rested over a 90 degree edge. Had to chuck it.

In reply to jonny2vests:

!!! Indeed ! --and crazy advice, IMO : where is this mud or moss coming from (i.e., tearing up the environment, violating the Leave No Trace maxim); where is it going (into your rope, not a Good Thing); and what could it possibly do, helpufully (if there's much resistance on the rope, I think you'll press through such packing anyway --you need to avoid resistance).


Sounds like an outdoor instructor is needed, for both of you.

*kN*

In reply to cole: Any one got a vid or photos showing how to do it at all please??

In reply to john_mx:

How to do what? A retrievable ab?

Simple in principle, attach midpoint of rope to anchor, ab down both strands, retrieve once finished. In practice, abseiling is a total minefield and you need to be really careful. I start with a good book, Libby Peters one or the Trad Climbing one perhaps.

In reply to cole: As others have said - packing your ab point with mud and moss sounds dodgey - ie both working grit into the core of your rope AND doing environmental damage.

If you are concerned about burning through tat, then buy a few maillons. Cheaper and more disposable than krabs and other folk can use them after you.

When I have planned abs, I usually carry some tat in my rucsac anyways and cut off the most suspect tat that is there previousl;y.

In reply to john_mx:

Hi John

I know you are Merseyside based and newish to climbing.

I get a lot of folk doing their SPA with me who want to gain experience instructing newbies - so if you would like some free ( or maybe buy them a pint) quality instruction get in touch.

Cheers

David

In reply to cole:

Does anyone else out there find it annoying when people start a thread and then just ignore it, never to comment again or give a basic 'thanks for bothering your arse boys and girls'?

Its just rude.

Maybe I'll start a thread about it. Ahem.

In reply to cole:

If you can, walk off the crag, abbing can go wrong very quickly. Check your gear, check your gear and another check.

In reply to Booey: cheers for that folks.

In reply to cole:

Ahhh, there you are, all is forgiven

In reply to cole: As others suggest, cheap rope for a sling and use a maillon, these are sold on ebay for £1.50for two inc postage, 6mm dia, which is plenty strong enough. They are sold as 'chain link' or chain repair. Unfortunately not allowed to give the ebay link.
Not much problem leaving one of those behind.
Again, as others say, get some suprvised practice first and check, check, check again. In some places an ab is much safer than other routes down, I have seen some real nasties on 'safe descent routes'.