UKC

hi,

looking for crampons that will fit on any flexible boot(strap on?- that are no toe-welts on my boots-i don't think so) and spikes appropriate for winter walking.

have looked at grivel & black diamond. i asked about in few shops and they categorised them into 3 grades. then when i looked online the distinctions appeared more to be in the teeth and bindings with no mention of whether it's c1-3

i'm thinking a c2 would be overkill for a begiiner like me on scottish mild inclines and would rather just get started without additional overlay on dedicated boots also.

are these the kind of thing i can be looking at and get away with:-

http://www.facewest.co.uk/Crampons-Winter-Walking.html

i tired on some b2-specifc rated boots in a shop and they felt really stiff to walk about in and a little overkill for me even though another shop suggested wisely you could go b2/c2 to save money(therefore not a bad idea) given the suggestion crampons and boots need to be specific(perhaps they don't like to give advice that might be seen as irresponsible). as i say i'm not anticipating having to climb climbing vertical walls just yet-fingers crossed..lol

In reply to mountainyogi: as i say i'm just looking at getting started.no huge outlay and winter walking in the scottish hills.

In reply to mountainyogi: i went winter walking up one of the scot hills in dec-jan a few years ago.. though i returned by a different route the other side of the ben which happened to be covered in ice because the sun never really saw that side. i only managed to make it down the other side of the mountain because some other wallker had left thigh-deep holes where the snow had been which had now turned to ice and i just retraced their footsteps. hence why i feel i need crampons. it was like an ice skating rink and i could have came a cropper.

In reply to mountainyogi: Crampons are not rearly compatible with all boots your current boots are likely b0 ( non compatible ) . I'd go straight for a pair of b2 boots with c2 crampons. Get something like the newmatic g12. Fitting poons to flexible boots will not only result in an insecure fit but will also be less effective as it's usefull and safer to have a stable and stiff platform when kick steps.

In reply to CurlyStevo: Avoid aluminium poons as they will wear out fast in the uk. Also you could get something like the g10 or monta rosa with a fully strap binding. The advantage is they will fit more bendy boots ( but still won't be 100% reliable fit on very bendy boots) the disadvantage is bendy boots and poons are not as effective and you won't be future proofing youself as these will be no good for climbing in. My mate has mantas and g12 newmatic great for winter walling and he has lead grade v ice in them too! You could hire some boots and poons initially to see if you like it

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Hi Curlystevo,

you've explained it all really clearly.so thanks for that. and i can see the advice for & against, more flexible perhaps with less spiky "teeth" versus a stiffer boot and more effective reliable foot-hold and what looks like more aggressive teeth.

as i say one guy in the first shop said b1/c1 (to see if 'the world of ice & snow is for you' were his words) and then another guy in another shop suggested going straight for c2/b2 given i kept on asking about general pricing of gear, i.e it would save you long-term.

i guess this is a decision i must come to myself on what i am judging my entrance point will be. and i am inclined to go for something like the grivel 10's fully strapped or monta rosa. if i get those and then give them a whirl and find shortcomings like an effective unrealiable step, then i can always sell them on and hike up to something more agressive and dependable.I'm guessing poons are just wee spikes on the bottom. I thinnk this is gonna be fun.

as i'm just getting started and expect mixed rock.ice & snow then b1's might be worth trying out. i feel like if i try b1 and it's not appropriate i've spent less initially to find this out.

i live in glasgow so it's 3 hrs car drive to glencoe or an hour at least to nearer places such a s the trossachs and loch lomond. also thehills should be empty in winter as i climb solo. i just bought a vango tempest tent and was thinking of sleeping bags and other stuff. i guess an ice-axe or prob. 2 as well to get started.

thanks for your very prompt guidance.

In reply to mountainyogi: i think i'll find out if b1's are not up for the job. i remeber in the shop the teeth did not look quite as aggressive but my motivation is just to get out on the hills with a minimum of outlay if it does'nt quite cut it, and there are limitations then i don't have to wait too much longer while i save up for investing in dedicated boots also.i'd rather i had something in the bag than nothing given the overall outlays involved in winter mountaineering.

as i say i am relative newbie so this should be interesting finding out what works and what maybe does'nt so well.

In reply to mountainyogi: I think there is a little bit of confusion where crampons are concerned,

If you just want some spikes to get you up footpaths in the winter months, then go ahead purchase something like the "Grivel Monte Rosas", they will strap onto your current boots (whether B1 or not) you may need to adjust them a little more throughout the day to maintain a good fit but they will work and improove security on steep ground vastly.

On the other hand, if you want to get into Winter "climbing"... Grade I/II routes where steeper ground will be encountered, then as stevo said, go out and invest in B2's/3's and a nice pair of G12's or similar C2 crampons, they'll last you years and will perform well, but will be overkill for tourists paths with little snow and ice on !

Hope I have been of help !

Pete.

In reply to mountainyogi:

Not much point in two axes with bendy boots and crampons because they just don't go with the same terrain. But you could try something like Kahtoola MICROspikes (ultra flexible, but not 'crampons') if you're not going to be tackling steep ground, or steel KTS (proper walking crampons, but still usable on the bendiest footwear) if you're looking for something a bit more conventional.

In reply to mountainyogi:

The real reason people buy and use B1 and B2 boots in winter is not the crampon compat'

Its cold and the the days tend to be longer in winter, the ground also tends to be harder as you find your self off the path or avoiding common slopes on a far more regular basis.

bendy summer boots can't deal with the change is terrain for long without falling to bits (some "winter" boots cant either) nor do they have the same level of protection for either the cold or the wet or the sharp talus. (try and return a ZG 65 after trashing it on talus - you get the "wrong boot for the job line"). so after a few hours or maybe a day in soft boots your feet are cold, sore and tired and your boots are almost dead.

no offence intended by the next statement but the theory that a summer boot will do for walking in winter is a very southern one.

buy a good pair of boots (an SL M3 if you will never climb would do) and you will find that the crampon question solves itself (G10 in this case).

In reply to seaofdreams:

On which note, Glenmore Lodge now also seem to be recommending B3s for winter walking because of their stiffness and edging capability, and (being comfortable walking in mine) I'd certainly concur with that.

In reply to petestack: I think folk who have done little walking in winter in te Scottish hills don't appreciate that winter hillwalking is often more akin to mountaineering than to summer rambling. Floppy boots just don't work a lot of the time, even when you don't need crampons (I've had a few bad experiences with XC ski boots in the past when they tended to be floppy leather rather than today's plastic boots)

In reply to Doug:

That's basically what I was thinking of re. edging etc. Might also clarify my two (apparently contradictory?) previous replies by adding that, while I'd wear B3s for walking/climbing or go running in hill shoes with Kahtoolas (not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm happy!), I'd rarely use anything between.

In reply to mountainyogi:

If you seriously never think you will get into winter climbing then a b1 boot like the Scapra SL M3 and a basic C1 crampon will be perfect. Though exactly the same could be said about buying a b2 and either c1 or c2 crampons. Furthermore you will only need 1 axe, some thing along the lines of a dmm cirque would be ideal. Finally, one thing to consider is the size of your feet... if you have big "clown" feet then I would say just go for b2 because b1s would flex more in bigger sizes.

Hope thats helpful, the decision doesn't need to be too complicated.

In reply to mountainyogi: we are Farr safer a safety business for walking in icy conditions. We have a attachment for the heel of your shoe so you will not slip when enjoying a walk in a icy winter. we have a website www.farrsafer.co.uk with information and you can contact me on my Email [email protected] for information or to purchase a cleat. They come in four different sizes and fit every type of shoe or trainer. we sell out product for £19.99 and is perfect for yourself or a present for a keen walker who wants to keep walking throughout the winter.

In reply to mountainyogi:
Seems to me that you've asked an honest question, and, unfortunately, been met with the obligatory ukc gear snobbery. If you are keen to walk/climb in winter, get out there and do it in a simple set of crampons- i personally recommend edelrid(12 point strap ons for 75 quid) ( great quality at cheapo prices), But unless you're intending on tackling an actual climb, general walking boots are MORE than sufficient for what you want. I personally have led grade 3 winter climbs in walking boots and strap on crampons. Unless you intend being a winter warrior, dont be fooled by peer pressure!!!

In reply to farrsafer:

Can see you're a school company (NB I teach in a Highland school myself), but you really think your heel-only spikes are a good recommendation for winter hillwalking?

In reply to crustypunkuk:

Not at all! Some have sensibly suggested stiff boots with crampons, others various lighter, more flexible alternatives and some (including myself) either according to conditions/circumstances.


It's not peer pressure. Stiff boots are better for edging or kicking steps (techniques frequently necessary outside of 'actual climbs'), but that doesn't stop bendy alternatives (even running shoes with strap-on spikes) being appropriate where conditions and judicious route choice combine to make them so.

In reply to crustypunkuk: I spent last winter walking around Scotland and Wales in a pair of Meindl Borneos (B0) and some G10s with the newmatic bindings. Had to adjust them one or twice in a day but other than that they worked. Having said that, kicking steps was far easier for mates in their B2 boots and at times I did envy them when it was my turn to break trail. Was going to buy some Nepal Extremes for this winter but with how work has been, it's not gonna happen as I don't have that sort of money spare. So, I'll be pottering around in some Asolo B0 rated boots or the Meindls.

Can't say I'd recommend this approach, that would be reckless of me but it's what I'll be doing. A good walk into the mountains and a wild camp will suffice, no ice climbing of course or Grade II/IIIs however.

Personally, I'd say G10s and going on a winter skills course, learning about avalanche conditions and winter nav would be a wiser spend if you've not done that already.

In reply to mrchewy:
Agreed. I think the most important thing is knowing what you're doing, not the equipment you're doing it in. I'm fairly certain that messrs bonnington, haston, weir, patey, brown, macinnes, et al, that managed their pioneering work in hobnail boots and similar basic equipment, wouldn't care if their gear was the latest or the greatest!!!
You dont have to spend a fortune, or go for a brand name to get the best equipment. As a general rule, unless you're climbing in them, strap on crampons will fit any boot out there, and will be more than adequate for what you want!

In reply to mountainyogi:
I'm sure this will be regarded as a contraversial reply, but I find I spend most days on the hill in winter with axe in hand, B2 boots on, but no crampons on. I do carry them, but rarely use them. So I often advise friends to get an axe first - far more important as a self arrest tool, and just back off if it gets too icey. I would say a pair of winter boots solve a lot of the slipping problem as you can kick the edges in.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Nothing controversial so far IMHO because you do carry them...


But I'd have to differ a bit here because 1. self-arrest is a last-resort technique that doesn't always work, 2. crampons may stop you needing to put that to the test and 3. you might find yourself committed before backing off or following a linear route (eg ridge traverse) where you're not returning the same way.

When I was a student in the 1980s there was an EUMC rule (might still be) that you carried an axe on meets from November to April. So I got an axe, but couldn't afford crampons at the time, quickly stopped going out in winter and still believe today that if you need one you need the other (NB carrying but not using counts).


Absolutely agreed, but still no substitute for crampons where necessary.

In reply to girlymonkey and pete: This is always an interesting debate but there are two great difficulties to giving general advice about carrying axes or crampons.

First, we all have slightly different concepts of an average 'day on the hill in winter' primarily in terms of our perceptions and experience but also in terms of the vast range of conditions that can be encountered.

- Is it walking up hills that just happen to have snow on them by fairly straightforward, objectively safe and well established routes ?
- Is it undertaking Mountain journeys making the most of the Winter conditions to give an interesting and varied experience?
- Is it all about battling the elements and having an adventure?
- Is it just a bit of a walk in the fresh air to work up an appetite?

Second is the fact that safety has everything to do with knowledge and attitude and precious little to do with equipment. Off the back of 20 years experience I'd have a quality day out, with or without any combination of axe or crampons. Unfortunately gaining the ability to plan, select routes and make decisions on the ground is not learnt overnight.

For all that prevarication I will get off the fence and say 'crampons first'.

The truly important issue is footwear.

If you don't have good footwear (i.e. B2/3 boots) then crampons are just imperative - far, far more important than an axe. With familiarity and a defensive mentality even basic strap-on crampons along will cope almost all situations. Combine crampons with a walking pole and I would not be too bothered whether I was still carrying an axe.

If you do have a pair of B3 boots then carrying just an axe is sufficient to cope with the full gambit of conditions (assuming of course your step cutting is up to scratch). However, even with good boots, carrying crampons is at least as effective as carrying an axe.

In reply to mountainyogi: scarpa chamoz. b2. good for winter walking, with a c2 crampon upto scottish grade 6 im told. ive only been upto grade 3

In reply to girlymonkey: Although in 6 years living in Scotland I never needed my axes walking but crampons have been completely essential numerous times. I'd prefer poons and walking sticks to no poons and an axe anyday.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

I disagree (with crampons first).

With an axe (or personally, I prefer 2, as on steep terrain it gives you a good stable support while you chop your next step), even with innappropriate footware you can descend/ascend fairly steep slopes in reasonable comfort/safety (although not very quickly). Also, you can just carry axes for the lead man and have everyone else just use the steps for hands and feet.

The only situation I'd take crampons over axes would be walking on undulating but overall flat ice/neve (i.e a glacier that was 100% crevasse free).

When I bring crampons, I generally put them on at the first sign of hard snow/ice, modern AB plates are brilliant. When I bring crampons, I always bring my axe(s), it's not always the case the other way around.

Surely any situation (that isn't completely flat ground) that you need crampons, poles are gonna be worse than useless?

In reply to Calum Nicoll: Admittedly it's a rather abstract discussion since in 90+% of cases the only sensible option is to carry both.

However I was in a situation (although contrived) this summer where I did have to make this sort of decision. A decision going completely against all your arguments .

We were going rock climbing on the South Face of the Midi and decided that we weren't going to abseil the route. Therefore we needed to go super lightweight since we would carry everything up the route with us.

I had a completely free choice of kit available for the descent down the well known and exposed snow arete from the cable car station. This included: mountaineering and technical axes, a pair of poles, G12 crampons plus both B3 & B0 boots.

The option I took was wearing the crampons with the B0 boots and carrying 2/3 of one of my poles for stability. It worked perfectly well despite a moderate and blustery wind. However I cannot imagine how scary it would be to try that descent without crampons, let alone in B0 boots regardless of whether I was carrying one axe or two.

There are certainly times I carry just an axe, however that will be in more marginal winter conditions and is based on the fact that an ice axe is generally a far QUICKER solution for the safe crossing of sections of snow or ice than crampons. I certainly don't confuse the EFFICIENCY of carrying an axe with the greater EFFECTIVENESS of stopping and putting on crampons.

if you'd have asked me last week, I'd have said axe and b2/b3 boots before crampons. After encountering a very thin layer of polished ice on Snowdon this weekend, where I had taken the concious decision to leave my crampons in the boot of the car and carry my axe whilst wearing B3's. I now have a different attitude. There are situations which will arise more on "normal" paths in the mountains than other routes where axes are useless and crapons will turn a high stress day with high risk of a fracture / slip off a cliff into an enjoyable "day on the hill".

If i were you I'd get some B2/B3's and C2's. This is because a strap toe and step in heel binding is the quickest and easiest to put on especially when your fingers are freezing. They are also a very effective binding. C1's are a little more fiddly and C3's are way overkill for you.
This combo will also work very well for winter ridge scrambles as you progress in your winter escapades.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

QED!

In reply to mountainyogi:

I would recommend looking realistically at what you are going to be doing.

the first winter outing i had was on a winter walking course with talisman guides for two days then a third day afterwards let loose on our own to practice skills.

i made the foolish decision of not hiring boots and went along in my summer boots. the borrowed crampons fit ok and the boots were fine to walk in on the soft surface snow. however whenever we got to a hard patch of snow i felt unstable as i couldn't kick steps or use the boot to create an edge in the snow to stand on. instead i had to wait till a few people had gone ahead of me and follow in their tracks quite literally!

after that trip i went out and bought some B2 boots and crampons to match. last winter i had an amazing time and went up all sorts of climbs without a problem and they are not uncomfortable to walk in - some days last winter were just walking for me due to conditions not being right for climbing, and some of the days climbing had long walk ins, the boots were fine!


so what im saying is dont over estimate what summer boots can do like i did - if you get a decent pair of boots for dedicated winter use then they will last if you just use them for winter and keep the summer boots for summer. als you'll enjoy yourself more with better footwear - think of it as another piece of essential gear - like your axe.

hope that helps