UKC

Hi,

My daughter started climbing at a local wall attached to a school, she was interested in trying it out and the timing was really convenient with rest of life (on the way to another activity and next door to a supermarket so I could fill out the shop while she climbed).  She enjoyed but, and at some point she started NICAS, and completed stage 1, and is now logging climbs to stage 2.

From being something to do to on the way to the second activity - which she also loves - she's now wanting to climb more and wanting to visit other places to climb.  I realise that is probably going to entail me learning enough to belay her in the new places and be accreddited, (I climbed a few times at uni where the wall presumably trusted me somehow and my wife climbed with others outdoors) 

Mostly though I was wanting to ask a bit more about taking young kids through NICAS, she's still only 7 and is enjoying doing it, but I'm wary of the syllabus beyond level 2 really, it seems quite a bit tailored to older kids, do people have much experience of progress at the young age - do they really engage with the later levels?    She struggles at the moment (with a lot of tantrums and stress) simply clipping in a rope when fake lead roping, her hands are small.

How comparable really are grades?  And do they really always make sense for a 4ft kid, will a 5+ at another wall be the same as a 5+ at her wall - obviously we'll find out, but I'd quite like to manage any expectations at the first time at a different wall if she won't be able to climb the same grades.

When NICAS 3 and 4 say "improve 1 grade", do they mean from 5 to 6 or from 5A to 5B, and what does it mean to be on a grade - climb one route at that or something else?

The wall doesn't do any competition stuff or anything like that, some of the descriptions of the competitions don't sound that enticing - 4 hours for a few routes - what sort of standard and how much fun are they really?

Sorry for all the questions, but I've read a lot, and nothing has really answered the above, if there's some resource I've missed, you can just point me there.  Cheers!

As long as she is enjoying it don't worry. 

The main problem with NICAS is it is an incredibly ponderous sausage factory with the emphasis in keeping the punters in to tick off the logs and gain the pointless ticks.  So long as the providers are good and use the course as motivation to climb and learn good stuff this doesn't matter but there can be a lot of tedious curriculum box ticking otherwise.  If this is the case try to find a non-nicas group. Ultimately the nicas scheme and "climbing qualifications" are totally pointless beyond motivation. 

This is quadruply so for those actually really into climbing because it simply holds them back (a decent climber can complete 1-4 in three months if allowed to but why would they or the wall bother?).

The BRYCS comps can be incredibly tedious and often really rather stressful and they can be incredibly dispiriting unless you are pretty good because the standards - especially past group D - are pretty high. However, there are many other comps which are much more fun.  It's just a matter of trying and seeing if they are fun - some kids really like them and some simply hate them. 

Where they do help is in developing a network of climbing friends for the really good climbers - typically they'll be just a few in each area and as time progresses they'll leave the rest behind so it is nice for them to have climbers of a similar age and ability to meet.

As for standards - I recall the national level for group E going to 7a and above for the final national level routes and roughly increasing a 1/2 -1 grade a year after that. Regional levels being roughly a grade below and, despite the idea that the standards are uniform, they do adapt the grades a bit to the local groups - after all its no fun if no one can get off the ground and rubbish if you end up with 5 kids topping every route. However, I've seen comps where some poor kids have failed to progress past the first clip on all routes and failed to get a single zone on all problems while at the same comp every route and problem has seen multiple tops requiring climb offs, count backs and timing to split the packs.

Bear in mind that individual development is highly non-linear - steady progression is not the norm and, so long as the child enjoys the activity, shouldn't be a measure of success, if they stick to it into teenage years this is especially true.

Finally, as a "sport", climbing is very cool. Not many sports really add up to a lifetime of joy and some are a route to nothing unless you find a place in the tight funnel to elite performance, but climbing is a skill and rewarding sport for life, especially if you start outside. Whatever the shortcomings of NICAS, comps and indoor gyms it has a lot going for it.

I honestly didn't even know it was possible to approach climbing like this! That's not to make any judgement, but the way it makes me feel is just slightly sad. Ah well.

With you so far, despite climbing for the last couple of decades I have no idea what NICAS is beyond a syllabus based approach to climbing.

Yep, OK understand that, seems like she is getting the bug, great!

Wait what? For some reason I had thought your daughter would be a bit older and this would be a post about 'How dangerous really is this climbing thing and now she wants to climb outside!'.  But she's only seven! 

Then follows some technical info focused on the fine print of NICAS which I can understand on a technical level but not an emotional one.

The best advice I can give you is if she is enjoying it then support her, and learn to belay her, yes you've got to learn to do this right but it's not difficult once you get the idea of not letting go of the dead rope.  Please don't let some arbitrary paper-based progression criteria hold you back or divert your focus from the magic of climbing - it's fun to use your body gymnastically in a vertical world!  If 'climbing a 6A' gives her satisfaction and motivation then great plough that motivation back in, but don't let you or her lose any sleep over it if she can't climb a certain grade!

Well done for engaging and supporting your daughter, if you expand your horizons, and your own skill-set, then a whole world of beautiful locations and wonderful experiences await you outside of this strange parallel universe fixated on grades, competitions and awards.  So speaks a man who took his own seven year old on a mini mountaineering adventure in Three Cliffs Bay last weekend.

* Disclaimer - I am sure that those who came up with the NICAS scheme worked bloody hard to bring it to fruition and that it does a great job.  I don't intend to disparage the scheme at all, nor all those who work so hard in the strange, to me, parallel world or plastic, grades and competitions.

Wall grades mean very little for a 7 year old, even when they are a bit older they don't mean much.   A small person can get blocked by a big reach even on an easy route.  Conversely, a route on holds which feel small to an adult can feel perfectly fine to someone with small hands and a great strength to weight ratio.  

Walls with youth squads often think more about how small people could climb their problems.

When kids get seriously into climbing they tend to forget about NICAS and start doing competitions.

As for learning to belay as a non climbing parent, a good wall should offer some course or lesson for that, or you could find a generous experienced climber to pass on their knowledge.

Or better still. Get yourself on a beginners course and give it a try. Lots of walls offer good things to entice new climbers. 

Grades are subjective in style, strength, height etc. My better half has to do much harder moves on some routes than me as her reach is shorter. Being 4ft will make grades pretty pointless in most cases. 

The thing I liked about climbed by was that it wasn't about competition; it was just me against the route. So, whilst I can understand that some people like competition, the growth in competitive climbing saddens me a little.

Some children will thrive on competition, some will not. You are best placed to know your daughter, and what might be best for her.

Well, I have to disagree with those people who are rubbishing NICAS. It's a good scheme and if you go through it to level 4 or 5, you will be a competent knowledgable indoor climber. A bit of background - I've been climbing for 40+ years, and my youngest son, now 18, for 10 or so. He went through the NICAS scheme as a member of the squad at our local wall (The Barn) and also competed in the YCS. He got a lot out of both. It's well worth being a member of a squad as this gives youngsters the chance to climb with and make friends with kids their own age. Competing in the YCS gave him the chance to meet others from further afield and as he improved, to climb with and compete against kids of a similar ability. That said, it can be very dispiriting if all the climbs or boulder problems in a comp are too hard. Hopefully the coaches at your local wall will be able to advise which comps if any are suitable.

My son had the advantage of a climbing father - I spent a lot of time belaying, but that also meant I got to climb much more than I would otherwise have done and now he can hold my ropes. If your daughter is keen, it would be well worth your while to learn how to belay, and as you're likely to be spending a lot of time at climbing walls, you might consider taking up the sport yourself.

Thanks everyone, I had I think, expected a lot of the answers and mystification from my reading (why indoor, why compete, why nicas) but I still very much appreciate people replying and rather than me wanting to do that route, my very questions were because I had a lot of questions.  

I have climbed a bit, and am old and set in my ways enough to make me pretty sure I won't find a new passion - I suspect my complete lack of strength and procioperception will make it too frustrating (procioperception may not even be required in climbing I don't know enough, but I imagine knowing where limbs are matter a lot)

I think it's quite likely that she won't be interested in competing, her main sport is almost definitively non-competitive against anyone but yourself and she does enjoy that aspect most currently, but I realised that the only way for it to ever work for the family is if she makes lots of climbing friends, as the chances of us getting away from our london living to interesting outdoors much is very slim.   

The more serious walls around us all talked about teams and squads though and were very much around competition, it looked like more serious indoor kids climbing was focussed on competition, like a lot of kids sports, if you want to just do rec versions you do it just with your friends or it's at a lower level, and whilst competition may not be her thing, she does thrive from being around other good peers rather than by herself or the being the best.

Thanks again everyone.

How can you possibly be "old and set in your ways" with a 7 year old daughter? if there is one thing you should change in you life to benefit the two of you it is this!

Thanks, she's 4ft, with a very high strength to weight ratio, so I did imagine it would be quite different to average.

hehe, that is a fair comment, however I have lots of things I know I enjoy, and a lot of things still to learn and achieve in my own passions.  Whilst outdoor climbing might suddenly grab me as a new thing, it's pretty unlikely.

I did the FUNdamentals course a couple of months ago and it really opened my eyes to how important physical development is in kids before they hit their growth spurt (basically the development up to this stage sets the physical ceiling for us as adults). If your kid is enthusiastic about ANY sporting activity then I'd be all-in. I can't think of many sports that develop the ABCs (agility, balance & coordination) as well as climbing. 

NIBAS/NICAS can also be used towards PE & DofE, though I don't know what ages kids do those things.  

A lot of walls are twigging on to the kids market and setting specific short-reach circuits and even areas in some cases. As a 6ft climber I often lank routes and miss the bad holds, so shorter people will naturally be forced into being stronger climbers than me.