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First trad reality check

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 raussmf 14 Jul 2020

Hey folks,

Ive got a bit of outdoor bouldering and sport experience behind me but to really get the benefits of all the best crags near me (NW) I know I need to get our on the grit (or non quarry limestone).

Ive started putting a rack together, read loads and practiced mock belays / the rope work required for single pitch trad.

I intend to just go and try some M or Diff routes as I know I can easily climb them. More for my own assurance this isn't totally daft is it? I know seconding someone or going with someone more experienced is great but we don't all know these people and to be honest I like the idea of just getting out and doing it as opposed to everything needing a course etc these days. 

Happy to be put right if so. 

Thanks

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 mrphilipoldham 14 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

That's how people did it in ages gone by, before the outdoors was an 'industry'. Start easy, learn, work your way up slowly. 

Try joining some of the local climbing groups on Facebook, or post on the partners forum here when you're free.. quite a lot of folk are happy to take out beginners so long as you can belay safely. 

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 brianjcooper 14 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

as mrphilipoldham says plus:

Look at the BMC website. Lots of useful information and clubs you could join to meet other climbers. Experienced and beginner.

Welcome. 

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In reply to raussmf:

Libby Peter's book has more than all the technical stuff you need to know... https://www.waterstones.com/book/rock-climbing/libby-peter/9780954151164 

Starting well within your technical abilities as you are planning is a sensible approach.

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 jezb1 14 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

Here’s a video I did about placing gear:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtlvY5Tf9UM&

Ive got loads of other videos on the channel too that may be of interest.

Have fun, starting trad is an awesome time!

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 tripehound 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf

Sensible approach. Take it slow.

The mistake I remember making as a beginner was not keeping the rope or sling between me and the belay tight. There was a hell of a jerk when my second fell off, putting excess strain on the belay and me. Keep it tight.

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 raussmf 15 Jul 2020
In reply to tripehound:

Thanks all - this has Turned apprehension to excitement and opened up a lot more to me / my partner.

Now just to finish off the rack before heading to the lakes next weekend.

I am in my late twenties and although somewhat understandable it is interesting how everyone i climb with thinks you need to climb indoors before sport, do sport before trad etc...so far being sensible and going for it has worked out. That said definitely more to think about with trad but not rocket science. 

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 gman2012 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

Sounds like you're in a similar position to me, I just did my first trad lead at the weekend. I was with guys I know from the climbing wall, first I placed the gear on top rope then went up and clipped it like a sport route and finally led a couple of routes.

I'd had a casual look at Libby Peter's book and jezb1's videos before but when I got back I had a better idea of what I needed from them (there were a couple of 'aha!' moments), and having experienced guys give advice on the way up and check the gear placements later was very handy.

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 raussmf 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

Ona side note any reccomended begginer crags in the lake district would be welcome

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 Jim Lancs 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

Basing yourself in Langdale is as good a plan as any. There are some single pitch crags plus quite beginner friendly multipitch.

Just one word of caution about Mods (and possibly some) Diffs - a few climbs at that grade can be a bit 'esoteric'. The Victorian first ascentionists liked the security of being jambed in some dank chimney or gully, but for us, the enjoyment of them can be a bit of an acquired taste.

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In reply to raussmf:

I’d say go for it on your present plan, but do be patient and if at all possible do try and climb with more experienced climbers if you get the chance. This is because you will benefit greatly from a) them evaluating your gear placements and telling you if they are pony and b) you getting to see their gear placements and thus getting a sense of what good placements look like. They can also teach you all kinds of tricks re making belays, rope management etc. 

I think this is worth emphasising as although you won’t fall off mods and diffs, you don’t want to progress up through the grades and one day find yourself on a sandbagged HVS (they abound) and, oh dear, you’re now taking the fall and it turns out nobody ever told you that your nuts need to go deeper in the cracks. (I use this example because it’s something a more experienced climber told me when I was starting out and that I wouldn’t have necessarily worked out for myself.)

In the long run though it’s complacency rather than inexperience that is likely to get you. I broke my leg not when I was wobbling up Hard Severes but when I was comfortably leading E2, having taken plenty of leader falls on gear, but switched my brain off on an “easy” route. Watch out for that. 

Post edited at 11:07
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 muppetfilter 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

One of the best ways to get the whole process underway of learning to lead is  while doing it on a top rope, you get the feel and concept of gear placement and towing a lead rope but with the hazards removed. Its also worth then having the second critically examining each and every placement and giving feedback.

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 tallsteve 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

Srsly join a club.  The younger generation are missing out.  Don't worry they're a bit short on folk yer own age.   Old fuddy duddies like me know "stuff".  Loads of techniques, good beginner routes, trad routes, climbing areas here and abroad, best pubs.  Ask a question they can advise from experience;  Training for the Alps - try this area;  Testing a new girl/boy friend for "keeper" value take them up this route; want to pop in on a crag on the way to grannies stop off here ...

Regular meets force you out after a tiring week and you'll be glad of it.

There's often a cheap hut too with reciprocal rights to other huts hither and yon.

Post edited at 12:07
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 MeMeMe 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

When a friend and I first learned we'd set up a belay at the top of a route together before we climbed a route. One person would setup the belay and the other would critique it to say 'What if this sling comes off', or 'what if the direction of pull comes from here', or 'what if this boulder moves'.

We'd then top rope the route (with one person at the top) without placing gear.

After we got experienced at this we'd do easy routes placing gear and when the second came up they'd take a good look at the placements and critique them (and the belay once they got to the top!). It's really important not to feel defensive about your gear placements and generally climbing safety and think of it as a learning opportunity and not a criticism of yourself.

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 Cobra_Head 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

You'll miss out on a lot of experience by not climbing with others, but I don't think you need to go on a course, try and find a local club.

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In reply to MeMeMe:

This point about not being defensive about your placements is really important. I know I've struggled with it a bit in the past - ego can really get in the way here - but learning to dispassionately accept constructive criticism is a huge must in trad, I find. (A constant work in progress in my case!)

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 GrahamD 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

No harm in starting to lead easy stuff.  If you get the chance, try to second stuff closer to your physical climbing limit.

Clubs, as suggested above are a great way to progress. 

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 mrphilipoldham 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

Nonsense. I climbed indoors on a few occasions when I was 16-18 at college. At 28ish I did low grade winter climbs in the Lakes before absolutely everything else. That was all soloing because I only knew me. Then a bit of summer scrambling and went indoors to (re)learn the rope work for more winter climbing.. that lasted about 6 weeks and then I got back to my mountaineering objectives including solos of Toubkal and Mt Blanc at 29. It was around the same time I did my first outdoor lead on rock which was Eight Metre Corner (D) at Wimberry in the February and then I was hooked and it’s been pretty much all rock since. The first lead was belayed by a new mate at the time who only had marginally more roped experience than me. Then met another chap who was leading HVS and I went from leading severe to my first and second VS in a single day and just 3 months after that Diff at Wimberry. Five years later and I’ve pretty much plateaued around E1 but I’m not chasing grades, just gradually scoping out E2s as and when I fancy it! All good fun and only a few moments of mild peril

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 cragtyke 15 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/

Loads of good advice on trad and sport  from the basics onwards on here.

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 henwardian 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Everything Paul said is really good advice. Especially the part about evaluating the quality of gear placements. And I think there is a lot to be said for getting a fair volume of easy routes done to get all your systems practised before you get on something hard enough to make you really focus on the climbing moves themselves.

Something I find healthy is to treat placing gear as a competition - if your second has to rest on the rope to get something out or arrives at the top swearing and bleeding then the leader won. The more you can win as a leader, the better your gear is likely to be

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In reply to henwardian:

But don't tell your second you're playing that game - it's well annoying having to sit on the rope to get gear out, so you don't want them competing back! 

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In reply to henwardian:

> Something I find healthy is to treat placing gear as a competition - if your second has to rest on the rope to get something out or arrives at the top swearing and bleeding then the leader won. The more you can win as a leader, the better your gear is likely to be

Not recommended! Taking gear out is tricky enough without trying to make it extra difficult for your second.  You may well need to abseil to retrieve stuck gear, so if you've not abseiled before, it's worth working out how to do it and practicing before you have to. Also if you've not already got one, a nut key will pay for itself many times over. I'd recommend one on a leash such as https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/wild-country-stainless-steel-pro-key-nut-removal-tool/?aid=d4226df4c731ace0f1a7b707880fd&pid=10004&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3ISW8rLP6gIV1GDmCh1w7QDWEAQYASABEgKdSPD_BwE&wt_mc=uk.pla.google_uk.1676771977.64825785483.325122157890 .

Post edited at 14:52
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In reply to Mark Kemball:

+1 for leashed nut key. When I'm seconding I find I just let mind dangle, then grab it by the leash when I need it.

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 Cobra_Head 15 Jul 2020
In reply to henwardian:

> Something I find healthy is to treat placing gear as a competition - if your second has to rest on the rope to get something out or arrives at the top swearing and bleeding then the leader won. The more you can win as a leader, the better your gear is likely to be

This just sounds daft to me, you should be looking for the best place for gear, not making it hard!

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 henwardian 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Cobra_Head:

The best bit of gear is almost always the bit that is hardest to get out. That is almost tautological isn't it? If it's hard for the second to get the gear out, then it's hard for the gear to fall out by itself while the lead is in progress or otherwise come out when fallen on.

An overcammed cam can't walk as much as a mid-cammed one can, a jammed nut can't wobble out of the placement like a less-jammed one, a piece of gear at the very back and bottom of a placement is more likely to stay in and where it is than a piece nearer the front or top of the placement.

My experience from climbing with dozens of partners is that the more experienced they are, the harder the gear is to extract. I would never suggest that someone learning to lead climb should be placing gear with anything in mind other than how safe it is going to be for their lead with the sole exception of traverses where the seconds safety is also an issue. Any more complex ideas like "we are on pitch 22 of 25 and I can see the thunderstorm approaching, just run it out and slap gear in any old way" or whatever else can wait till much later on in the learning process.

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 henwardian 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Mark Kemball:

> Not recommended! Taking gear out is tricky enough without trying to make it extra difficult for your second. 

I recommend it because it's a good way to get good at putting in good gear. I think that if someone is learning to climb, safety should always be emphasised rather than convenience.

> You may well need to abseil to retrieve stuck gear,

Yes, in which case you learn a valuable new skill, or no, in which case you pay a few quid to leave a piece of gear on the crag for the next person. You don't want to get into the habbit of leaving stuff but it's going happen sooner or later and in the big picture it's a pretty low cost to pay in comparison to your safety.

> so if you've not abseiled before, it's worth working out how to do it and practicing before you have to.

Yes. Definitely :D

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In reply to henwardian:

> I recommend it because it's a good way to get good at putting in good gear. I think that if someone is learning to climb, safety should always be emphasised rather than convenience.

I think it's a very bad habit to get into, so best not to start! I've seen folks yanking like crazy on what you can tell from a glance is a superb placement. This achieves nothing other than making life difficult for the poor second. A gentle tug to seat the nut is all that is needed (if that). 

A better practice is to mentally give each placement a mark out of 10. 10 would stop a train and 1 or less might just suffice to hang a coat off. Get your second to rate the placements in the same way and compare.

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 Cobra_Head 15 Jul 2020
In reply to henwardian:

> The best bit of gear is almost always the bit that is hardest to get out. That is almost tautological isn't it? If it's hard for the second to get the gear out, then it's hard for the gear to fall out by itself while the lead is in progress or otherwise come out when fallen on.

This is patently bollocks, there are plenty of place where you can simply lift out a nut, and where it's not going to fall out itself, either while climbing or taking afall.

> An overcammed cam can't walk as much as a mid-cammed one can, a jammed nut can't wobble out of the placement like a less-jammed one, a piece of gear at the very back and bottom of a placement is more likely to stay in and where it is than a piece nearer the front or top of the placement.

An over cammed cam is more likely to pull out during a fall.

> My experience from climbing with dozens of partners is that the more experienced they are, the harder the gear is to extract.

I'm glad I don't climb with you, getting gear out isn't what I'm about, I like climbing not having competitions with who can wedge the most gear in.

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 heleno 16 Jul 2020
In reply to tallsteve:

Absolutely agree about the benefits of clubs in the longer term, but worth pointing out that many clubs suspended their meets programmes at the beginning of lockdown and haven't restarted them yet, and also most club huts are still closed. So maybe hard to realise those benefits right now. 

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 Offwidth 16 Jul 2020
In reply to Cobra_Head:

I agree henwardian's advice is terrible. I don't understand how experinced climbers can think in such ways.

Adding to your points and Mark's, using overcammed placements goes against the advice of manufacturers and best practice safety advice and is also liable to get cams stuck and the rock damaged in trying to remove them. Similar issues occurs for stuck nuts that have been needlessly yanked into a position where they are hard to remove. The rock is a limited resource and bogus safety gains are not a justification for additional damage.

Post edited at 07:19
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 timparkin 16 Jul 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> I agree henwardian's advice is terrible. I don't understand how experinced climbers can think in such ways.

> Adding to your points and Mark's, using overcammed placements goes against the advice of manufacturers and best practice safety advice and is also liable to get cams stuck and the rock damaged in trying to remove them. Similar issues occurs for stuck nuts that have been needlessly yanked into a position where they are hard to remove. The rock is a limited resource and bogus safety gains are not a justification for additional damage.

Agreed - if he wants a competition, tell the second he can only use his little finger and only pull down and out on the nut (not up).

The climber wins if they can't get it out this was, the placement is Good or Bomber (in a range of Fell out, Poor, OK, Good, Bomber) AND they don't have to use a nut key to get it out.

The second wins if they need a nut key, two hands or has to hang on the rope ... That should keep both climbers happy and the lead climber learning proper technique. 

I'm only beginning but this would be my game if I was going to make one up... 

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 Jamie Wakeham 16 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

plus however many we've got to on this nonsense about the gear being hard to get out.  One of the marks of a good leader is that their gear is bomber, but easy to remove!

>it is interesting how everyone i climb with thinks you need to climb indoors before sport, do sport before trad etc...

This is quite a modern idea, really, based on the idea that sport 'feels' like indoor, and most people begin indoor climbing these days.  Nothing wrong with starting out with easy trad.

I had a client a while ago who was onsighting 6b indoors, who said that she didn't think she was ready to start climbing outdoor trad yet because they'd all be too hard for her... 

Post edited at 11:42
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 duchessofmalfi 16 Jul 2020
In reply to Cobra_Head:

"An over cammed cam is more likely to pull out during a fall."

How do you figure that out?

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 althesin 16 Jul 2020
In reply to Jim Lancs:

In the same vein, those same chimneys rarely have any gear and are sometimes impossible wearing a harness, rack and helmet. The ego takes an unwelcome beating failing to climb a "Diff".

I'm not selling them really, but you learn to enjoy them!

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 Offwidth 16 Jul 2020
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

The real problem is stuck cams can end up getting damaged when removing them. You don't want to end up a key cam down on a long route, be it stuck or damaged. If over-cammed at the limit they are also less likely to rotate slightly as they should when shock loaded in a fall (why you are supposed to place them aligned to the likely fall direction). It might relate to this that I've heard tell of old over-cammed devices being more likely to slip in very polished parallel cracks but I've never seen clear evidence of that.

Andy on this broader subject.

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/index.php/cragmanship/view/over_and_under_cam

Post edited at 13:45
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 henwardian 25 Jul 2020
In reply to Mark Kemball:

I think we just fundamentally disagree on how best to use leader placed pro. I understand what you are saying and I think you understand me so I don't think there is much more to add.

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 henwardian 25 Jul 2020
In reply to Cobra_Head:

> This is patently bollocks, there are plenty of place where you can simply lift out a nut, and where it's not going to fall out itself, either while climbing or taking afall.

If you keep climbing with this mindset then one day, if you unlucky, the line the rope takes up the crag will lift out a nut that you just laid in the placement without seating it properly while you are either struggling to get the next piece in/clipped or going up and down trying to work out a crux. It's a fundamentally flawed concept to consider that a nut that can move around in a placement is just as good as one that is wedged firmly in place.

> An over cammed cam is more likely to pull out during a fall.

This is not true and it is irresponsible to say so, particularly in the beginners forum where people may take your, more experienced, word on the matter.

> I'm glad I don't climb with you, getting gear out isn't what I'm about, I like climbing not having competitions with who can wedge the most gear in.

What I said was a slightly tongue-in-cheek idea designed to encourage safer leading. In reality my primary concern when leading is always putting in enough solid gear to keep me as safe as possible on the route. In my experience a lot of that gear, particularly where placements may be suboptimal or hard to find, will be very firmly seated and as far into the placement or overcammed as possible.

I'm not going to do you the disservice of rating any climbing experience I might have with you before I have it, who knows, maybe you are a bit less judgemental in real life :P

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 henwardian 25 Jul 2020
In reply to various others:

I think a lot of you took my original game idea a bit too seriously. I did give it a smilie face you know!

The aim is solid gear, not pissing off your second, it was just entertaining to couch it in those terms.

For people who seemed concerned about stuck gear and damaged gear the solutions are (do I really need to say this?) to regularly inspect gear and replace any damaged bits and to get better at removing gear. Over the years I've removed a LOT of "situ" gear that could have been taken out if the people who left it had had more skill/motivation and I can only remember personally getting a cam so badly stuck that I had to abandon it once and maybe 1 or 2 nuts like this (hazy on this last because leaving one behind is nothing like as financially painful!).

I don't agree that a new leader should be given the twin aims of "safe placement" and "easy to extract" as these are sometimes/often contradictory and the former is so much more important than the latter.

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 Cobra_Head 25 Jul 2020
In reply to henwardian:

>  It's a fundamentally flawed concept to consider that a nut that can move around in a placement is just as good as one that is wedged firmly in place.

No one said it should be able to move around, there a world of difference between a solidly placed nut and one which is part of a competition to remove

> This is not true and it is irresponsible to say so, particularly in the beginners forum where people may take your, more experienced, word on the matter.

You should read manufacturers documentation regarding cam placement.

> ...., will be very firmly seated and as far into the placement or overcammed as possible.

And I think you're wrong, nuts only need to be seated enough not to come out, any harder and it's pointless, perseverance tell most people where this point is. and again over camming a cam, does NOT make it a better / stronger / safer placement, it makes it less safe.

> I'm not going to do you the disservice of rating any climbing experience I might have with you before I have it, who knows, maybe you are a bit less judgemental in real life :P

Cool but you repeated a number of times, how hard it should be to remove gear. You now seem to be back-peddling on this, it wasn't just me who picked you up on this, and you've only now back tracked a little.

Not judgemental at all, my post was based on the evidence you've posted, and continue to post, on this thread.

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 Cobra_Head 25 Jul 2020
In reply to henwardian:

>  I can only remember personally getting a cam so badly stuck that I had to abandon it once and maybe 1 or 2 nuts like this (hazy on this last because leaving one behind is nothing like as financially painful!).

Just for the record, I've never left any crag tat behind, or left any of my partners, and have also "rescued" many in situ tat left by others.

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 Route Adjuster 26 Jul 2020
In reply to henwardian:

If you want to think of it as a game or competition them consider a 'win' as being the situation where the leader completes the climb,  sets up a belay and pulls in the rope and all of the gear they placed stays in place.  A 'lose' could be when some of your gear comes out,  either on  the lead or when pulling in.  

I can recall situations where I have placed gear to protect a move or two knowing full well that once above it, it will most likely come out.  But at the time it was better than nothing and  provided the psychological nudge necessary to continue with the lead. 

With regard to the  OP, the key to becoming proficient is to get the miles in,  do loads of easy routes of all kinds to gain experience.  Long routes,  short routes,  traverses,  cracks,  pockets etc.  Slowly move up through the grades,  experience is key. Watch others,  talk to other people at the crag and most importantly enjoy yourself. 

Post edited at 09:54
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 raussmf 27 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

Back on topic, I went to the lakes this weekend and lead Tiree (M) and Platt Gang Groove (D) with success. We got some nuts, cams, slings and decided to go for it based on a few hours of youtube videos. Was bloody brilliant, totally new dynamic and we are hooked. Partner commented on my gear (as best he could) and was pleased at using 25m of rope round a boulder to build one of the belays.

Would have done more but the lakes was soaked most of the weekend. Still climbed sport and boulder as St bees had 3 days of dry and some sun !

Superb weekend.

Is using chunky sport draws a bad idea on trad? Fear this is why a few nuts came out due to rope drag.

(All gear was retrieved with some needing a couple mins of nut key action and some falling out)

Post edited at 09:15
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 timparkin 27 Jul 2020
In reply to raussmf:

> Is using chunky sport draws a bad idea on trad? Fear this is why a few nuts came out due to rope drag.

> (All gear was retrieved with some needing a couple mins of nut key action and some falling out)

Not necessarily bad. There are a couple of issues with them though. 

1) The dogbone (connector) is very stiff so transmit movement from rope to gear

2) The dogbone is short so you can  end up with rope  drag. Using longer quickdraws allows the rope to run straighter (possibly straight enough to still be loose on the gear, hence not pulling gear out)

3) Solid gate have been known to suffer from gate flutter and the rope coming out. The solid nature has more momentum and hence if a carabiner hits the rock through movement, the gate could open for longer  than a well  sprung, lightweight  wire carabiner would. 

4) Don't use them to extend integrated slings. e.g. in carabiners/torque nuts. As the damage on the bolt end of the carabiner can start to fray the dyneema. I'm not sure how important this last point is but it's worth bearing in mind.

I wouldn't say don't use them but there use should probably only be for straight climbs, vertical  cracks etc. I bought  separate sport/trad draws to keep things simple

Most people seem to use a combination of medium and long normal quickdraws and alpine draws/slingdraws. 

an example might be

https://www.ellis-brigham.com/dmm-spectre-2-quickdraw-trad-5-pack-127606

plus three or four of these

https://www.ellis-brigham.com/dmm-spectre-2-quickdraw-set-25cm-127604

and a few slingdraws made up of these

https://www.ellis-brigham.com/dmm-8mm-x-60cm-dyneema-sling-130600

https://www.ellis-brigham.com/dmm-spectre-2-wiregate-carabiner-126601

The combination might be more biased towards slingdraws if you're doing traversing routes or toward shorter draws if you're using half ropes. The combination is down to types of climb etc. If you're doing very long climbs you might end up with 14+ quickdraws or if they're short and straight you  might only need 6 or so.

People often colour code these by carabiner/sling. I've got red/blt for 25cm, silver/blt for 18cm and purple/blt with purple 60cm slings for slingdraws. 

Post edited at 09:56
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 henwardian 01 Aug 2020
In reply to Cobra_Head:

> You should read manufacturers documentation regarding cam placement.

Maybe you could point me towards exactly what you are referring to? There are a lot of manufacturers of cams and the instructions sheets tend to be a pretty long-winded read.

I maybe should have said earlier on that all my cams are all the double-axel design so getting them genuinely stuck is very hard to do as the lobes can't over-rotate.

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 henwardian 01 Aug 2020
In reply to Route Adjuster:

> I can recall situations where I have placed gear to protect a move or two knowing full well that once above it, it will most likely come out.  But at the time it was better than nothing and  provided the psychological nudge necessary to continue with the lead. 

This is exactly why I don't want to play your game :D

I'd lose every time I put a sling over the tinniest crappy spike just so I could shake out while feeling more relaxed!

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 henwardian 01 Aug 2020
In reply to raussmf:

All sounds great.

If you needed to use a nut key that's a good thing in my book (though obviously a lot of other people feel differently in this thread), glad your first trad experience went well.

I'd agree with a lot of what timparkin just said above. On point 4), if you run your finger around the inside of your sport carabiners where they have been in contact with the bolts, you should be able to feel if there are any rough burrs on the metal - they will be ok to use to trad climb if they still seem smooth but it is better practice to keep a separate set of trad and sport draws.

When Tim mentions Sling draws, he means this type of arrangement:

https://outdoorgearlab-mvnab3pwrvp3t0.stackpathdns.com/photos/18/93/310869_31701_XXL.jpg

My trad rack generally has all draws as slingdraws as I love the versatility but I'm in a minority there as most people only have a few.

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