/ Gym exercises

L Cragbopper 20 Oct 2019

Hi there,

Having just started with mountaineering/hillwalking, I am having troubles with my muscular endurance, specifically in my calves and lower quads, which in the summer months cramp up a lot. My cardiovascular fitness is good as I’ve been training for about 4 days a week for 5 years, however this has been strength/bodybuilding weightlifting training which is not suitable at all! Whilst I don’t want to stop my current training for fear of losing my progress, I’d like to be able to improve the trouble areas. This issue here is time. I have added 10 mins of High intensity interval training (HIIT) on a watt bike, and 10 mins on the stair master as I only have 20 mins to spare on top of what I’m already doing (around 1.5 hours of intense weight training) I’m not certain this will be much use as the aerobic aspect is pretty much non existent to what I’ve been reading online. 
 

Has anyone here got any better suggestions on what I can do within the 20 minute time frame to really make a difference in the hills?

Thanks in advice for any suggestions!

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Becky E 20 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

The big clue is in your first sentence:

> Having just started with mountaineering/hillwalking, I am having troubles with my muscular endurance, specifically in my calves and lower quads, which in the summer months cramp up a lot.

If it's a summer-only problem, that suggests that you're possibly not drinking enough whilst exercising during warm weather.  So make sure that you're drinking enough throughout the day.

Stretches can also help.

Good summary here:  https://www.bupa.co.uk/health-information/exercise-fitness/exercise-muscle-cramps.

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L Cragbopper 20 Oct 2019
In reply to Becky E:

Thanks Becky, yeah most likely the cause behind the cramps, I do sweat a lot! But still have fatigue issues and a heavy burn when it’s colder, Any exercise suggestions for the gym? 

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Becky E 20 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

Well, they always say that the best training for climbing mountains is to climb mountains.

In the absence of a mountain in the gym, I imagine some time on a ramped treadmill could be useful.

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bouldery bits 20 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

Hydration sounds an issue. Remember salts are an important part of hydration. 

Bang yourself up some stairs with a heavy pack. Hotels are good. Take the lift back down to save your knees. 

Good luck!

Post edited at 20:16
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webbo 20 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

The usual cause of cramp is asking your muscles to do something that they are not trained to do. Hydration will play apart but  if all you are doing is 90 minutes weight training then  trying to walk 15 miles in the hills no wonder you get cramp. You need to gradually increase your endurance by doing longer and longer walks with maybe shorter walks at faster pace than normal.

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cap'nChino 20 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

Hey, 
It's a difficult one to answer with the limited information, but you might be better just doing 20 minutes of solid Stairmaster to hone in on the quads and calves to mimic the climbing movement. 

One thing to take into consideration, if you have been doing resistance training and you are now quite muscular, then your cardio endurance might not be as good as you require. Pumping the blood/oxygen around the body for prolonged periods of time at a steady rate will be something it is not used to.

Depending on your overall goals, it might be worth taking out a further 20 minutes of strength training for a total of 40 mins cardio. Maybe consider this the 5 weeks leading up to the 'summer walking season' so you aren't sacrificing gains elsewhere. 

As others have said, hydration is also important in the summer, remember to rehydrate, not just water but also electrolytes lost in your sweat - consider dissolving a couple of grains of Himalayan Pink salt into your water for these.

Good luck. 

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L Cragbopper 20 Oct 2019
In reply to cap'nChino:

I think your pretty much bang on, I’ll be trying just the stair master for 20 mins now and up the pace as much as I can, if I want to push it any further I’ll just have to re-consider my training priorities, but as I’m on the south coast I’ll probably only get to the mountains once every few months or so.

I’ll also be paying more attention to electrolytes in the future! 

Do you guys see much value in HIIT training for mountaineering at all? 

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PaulW 21 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

Mountaineering means a pace and effort you can sustain, all day or even for several days so you are still functioning physically and mentally at the end. Otherwise you are heading for a whole heap of trouble down the line..

HIIT would seem to be the opposite. By all means incorporate some into a training programme but it's a bit like training for a marathon by doing sprint intervals

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girlymonkey 21 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

I wouldn't think about it as "training" in the sense you train for weights etc. Forget the gym stuff, it doesn't help. Just go out mountaineering and walking and build up. 

Many people try to go too fast, this may be your issue along with dehydration. Walk at a pace that you can hold a conversation, the mountain isn't going anywhere fast! Don't think of it as a "sport" with times to beat, think of it as a nice day out with good views and hopefully good company. 

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summo 21 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

Find any gym with a stair master.

Rolling steps , for hill training it's impossible to beat, other than real hills. It's not flat/shallow like a tread mill and you can't just rock from side to side like many step machines. Ideally get your balance and go without hands as well. Ideally 1hr three times a week and you'll be cruising up hills in no time at all. But even 5 mins warm up, 10min killing it then 5mins cool down is better than nothing. 

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summo 21 Oct 2019
In reply to girlymonkey:

> Many people try to go too fast, this may be your issue along with dehydration. 

Sweat management. You should feel a little cold stood still in the car park waiting, if you are toasty warm before you set off you'll likely melt while ascending. Then have a layer to put on later once the work is done. Layers and pit zips work wonders. 

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webbo 21 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

> I think your pretty much bang on, I’ll be trying just the stair master for 20 mins now and up the pace as much as I can, if I want to push it any further I’ll just have to re-consider my training priorities, but as I’m on the south coast I’ll probably only get to the mountains once every few months or so.

> I’ll also be paying more attention to electrolytes in the future! 

> Do you guys see much value in HIIT training for mountaineering at all? 

Paying more attention to electrolytes will get you no where. The reason you get cramp is you are not fit enough to sustain the effort you are putting out.

As others have said more mountaineering and less time on the weights is the way forward.

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AJM79 21 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper

There's a reason why Mo Farrah doesn't look like Usain Bolt.

If you want to train for the hills you'll have to completely re-structure your training. It seems you're mainly building fast twitch muscle fibres and your aerobic system is geared towards high intensity short efforts while what you need is lots of slow twitch muscle fibres and an aerobic system which can cope with long efforts at a slower pace. I know high intensity workouts can be quite addictive but they are of little use in mountaineering, even high level technical mountaineering.

If I'm training for Scottish winter or Alpine routes most of that training will be long hours walking uphill with a pack on or long mountain bike routes on hilly terrain. Long runs at a slow pace will also be good (although due to injuries I can no longer run). Think a minimum of 2 hours of constant effort. If you're training for hill walks then you're probably strong enough already, by all means keep strength training but knock it down to once a week and work on endurance for the rest. If you're training for mountaineering and some bits are too hard then pick easier routes and work on your strength on single pitch.

Some one once asked on here if they could train for the Alps with kettle bells. The best reply was that they should put them in a rucksack and walk up a hill. I'm afraid either the gym will suffer for the hills or the hills will suffer for the gym, there's very little you can do in 20 mins.

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RX-78 21 Oct 2019
In reply to AJM79:

Reminds me of when I was hiking in the Sierra Nevada in Spain, we saw a couple walking down one path, the man was carrying a kettle bell in one hand. It did look a bit odd.

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Smythson 22 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

Have a look at the book 'Training for new alpinism.' There's a shift in thoughts on training for mountaineering and this leans towards the new style training. 

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HammondR 22 Oct 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

Another recommendation for Training for the New Alpinism here, and the complementary book Training for the Uphill Athlete. With your training history avoid HIIT like the plague.

Their website Uphill Athlete is a goldmine of free supporting information. You sound like a classic case of Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome. Try a heart rate drift test on a treadmill with a a monitor on. You will be amazed at how low your Aerobic Threshold is, but you have to start somewhere.

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HammondR 22 Oct 2019
L Cragbopper 25 Oct 2019
In reply to HammondR:

Some really useful pointers from everyone, I’ll be looking into that book and the uphill athlete link, and see how I can work longer walks into my weekly routines! 

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jpicksley 07 Nov 2019
In reply to Cragbopper:

I generally agree that the idea of long steady cardio training, particularly with gradient, is good but don't neglect core strength and flexibility work. 20 mins in the gym on, say, alternate days to steady cardio work where you concentrate on core and stretching will help, particularly as you get older. Helps recovery as well. It's a neglected area. The attitude of training for your sport by doing your sport is fair enough, but if that's all you do you'll miss out key conditioning that will help. Good core helps, for example, with balance and carry a rucsac. Also, whatever you do make sure it's something you enjoy. Otherwise you'll stop. Good luck.

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webbo 07 Nov 2019
In reply to jpicksley:

So now you need to develop core muscles in order to go for a walk carrying a rucksack.
Well you learn something everyday.

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jpicksley 07 Nov 2019
In reply to webbo:

Now, now, you know full well I didn't say that. We're all capable of making our own decisions. Do what you want. But core strength and good flexibility definitely help, particularly as you age. Just offering up some advice for someone who asked from someone who has experience.

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webbo 07 Nov 2019
In reply to jpicksley:

My usual activity regime consists of weight training, road cycling and bouldering often on 45 degree board. Which I believe might give me reasonable core strength.

However I’ve never felt it helped me walk any easier up hill.

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jpicksley 07 Nov 2019
In reply to webbo:

I dare say it does. And I've had a long term back problem and feel that it definitely helps me. My point being that we all have our own experiences and advice. And the OP will no doubt find their own way by trial and error as we all do. There's no need to be sarcastic though as you were clearly being in your first response when I'm just offering up some advice from my own experience.

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nufkin 07 Nov 2019
In reply to webbo:

>  However I’ve never felt it helped me walk any easier up hill.

If I may dip in an un-asked for oar here, the Training for the New Alpinism book mentioned above is quite emphatic on the usefulness of a strong core for all manner of active pursuits - that's core as in the 'central connecting and stabilising muscles' rather than 'wondrous six-pack' core.
Possibly your own core hasn't felt like it's helped you walk up hills because it's strong already and not struggling to cope with what's asked of it

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webbo 07 Nov 2019
In reply to nufkin:

But you still need to walk a lot to get better or fitter at it. Which goes for any activity.

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jpicksley 08 Nov 2019
In reply to webbo:

A statement which most of us on this thread clearly agree with, which is nice. A good way to start the weekend.

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nufkin 08 Nov 2019
In reply to webbo:

>  you still need to walk a lot to get better or fitter at it

True. And Steve House bangs on about that possibly most of all

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