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hi everyone,
i'm new on the forums and rock climbing, just wanting to know how much wieght i should think about when purchasing for my first official climb, i recently climb a 40ft wall with much joy, but borrowed equipment.
i wiegh 9st 10lbs, my partner i climb with is a handsome 14st. so i consider the use of a sling, although i did catch him when he slipped, he dragged me into the wall, and my feet dragged across the ground,but i held him!
karabiner i looked at is 70kn but i don't know what kn's are equivlent to- eg 1kg of flour = to the weight of a large jack russell dog...if you understand me.
thanks Dee
i'm new on the forums and rock climbing, just wanting to know how much wieght i should think about when purchasing for my first official climb, i recently climb a 40ft wall with much joy, but borrowed equipment.
i wiegh 9st 10lbs, my partner i climb with is a handsome 14st. so i consider the use of a sling, although i did catch him when he slipped, he dragged me into the wall, and my feet dragged across the ground,but i held him!
karabiner i looked at is 70kn but i don't know what kn's are equivlent to- eg 1kg of flour = to the weight of a large jack russell dog...if you understand me.
thanks Dee
In reply to deesspacelounge:
Welcome...
Is this for attaching to an anchor at the bottom of a route at a climbing wall?
We can get to the kn bit later...
Welcome...
Is this for attaching to an anchor at the bottom of a route at a climbing wall?
We can get to the kn bit later...
In reply to deesspacelounge:
1KN = 1000newtons
One newton is roughly equivalent to 100g I think.
James
1KN = 1000newtons
One newton is roughly equivalent to 100g I think.
James
In reply to deesspacelounge: 70kNs is over 7 tonnes..
In reply to james oswald:
kn is a unit of force, not just weight.
1kn = 100kg falling 1 metre.
2kn = 200kg falling 1 metre or 100kg falling 2 metres...
kn is a unit of force, not just weight.
1kn = 100kg falling 1 metre.
2kn = 200kg falling 1 metre or 100kg falling 2 metres...
In reply to deesspacelounge:
10kN is roughly the force exerted by 1 metric ton at rest. A 70kN krab could be used to tie up your pet T-Rex while you did the shopping
22kN - 24kN (just over 2 ton) is the norm for climbing gear. Tell the shop assistant (climbing shop, not sport shop or hardware store what you want it for, they'll help.
jk
10kN is roughly the force exerted by 1 metric ton at rest. A 70kN krab could be used to tie up your pet T-Rex while you did the shopping
22kN - 24kN (just over 2 ton) is the norm for climbing gear. Tell the shop assistant (climbing shop, not sport shop or hardware store what you want it for, they'll help.
jk
In reply to shingsowa:
You sure? I think maybe you're thinking in Joules
> 1kn = 100kg falling 1 metre.
You sure? I think maybe you're thinking in Joules
In reply to shingsowa:
No.
jkarran's description is much better.
> (In reply to james oswald)
> kn is a unit of force, not just weight.
weight is also a force> kn is a unit of force, not just weight.
>
> 1kn = 100kg falling 1 metre.
>
> 2kn = 200kg falling 1 metre or 100kg falling 2 metres...
> 1kn = 100kg falling 1 metre.
>
> 2kn = 200kg falling 1 metre or 100kg falling 2 metres...
No.
jkarran's description is much better.
In reply to jkarran:
You might think so, but mine escaped and ate all the shoppers! :-O
However, agreed it's way (weigh?) more than you need.
> A 70kN krab could be used to tie up your pet T-Rex while you did the shopping
You might think so, but mine escaped and ate all the shoppers! :-O
However, agreed it's way (weigh?) more than you need.
In reply to shingsowa:
sling attatched at base of wall, he's a handsome wieght!
really want to climb some more, could do with some advice on harnesses too!
thanks again!
sling attatched at base of wall, he's a handsome wieght!
really want to climb some more, could do with some advice on harnesses too!
thanks again!
In reply to deesspacelounge:
Hi Dee, Hi Dee, Hi...
I know that there will be plenty of answers about what you can loaded a krab with, so I won't answer that. What I can do is maybe offer some advice, especially as you say that you are new to climbing, and I'm not sure what instruction you may have had. So, when belaying stand close in to the wall. The advantage of this is that it will stop you being dragged into the wall, and possibly getting hurt and then letting go of the rope. It will also help when a heavier person falls. Also, the weight difference isn't that much of a problem, as much of the energy is absorbed by the rope stretch and the friction through the attachement point at the top of the wall. However, the use of a sling is always a good idea.
(have I just been had?)
> i wiegh 9st 10lbs, my partner i climb with is a handsome 14st. so i consider the use of a sling, although i did catch him when he slipped, he dragged me into the wall, and my feet dragged across the ground,but i held him!
Hi Dee, Hi Dee, Hi...
I know that there will be plenty of answers about what you can loaded a krab with, so I won't answer that. What I can do is maybe offer some advice, especially as you say that you are new to climbing, and I'm not sure what instruction you may have had. So, when belaying stand close in to the wall. The advantage of this is that it will stop you being dragged into the wall, and possibly getting hurt and then letting go of the rope. It will also help when a heavier person falls. Also, the weight difference isn't that much of a problem, as much of the energy is absorbed by the rope stretch and the friction through the attachement point at the top of the wall. However, the use of a sling is always a good idea.
(have I just been had?)
In reply to jkarran:
It is possible, ive been awake for a long time and i need my bed.
I am gonna regret typing that come sun-up when the physics pedants turn out, aren't i?
Off to bed, will promise to be more scientific in the morning...
It is possible, ive been awake for a long time and i need my bed.
I am gonna regret typing that come sun-up when the physics pedants turn out, aren't i?
Off to bed, will promise to be more scientific in the morning...
In reply to jkarran:
defo on kn not joules- that's measurement electricity i think?!
defo on kn not joules- that's measurement electricity i think?!
In reply to escalator: thanks that's helpful- you're advice is for a serious cause! i gotta climb, and my fella isn't the most dextrous- he's 6"2" and i'm 4"11". i'm a bit self conciuos of my hieght as i climb like a monkey up a tree, and he climbs like abear up a tree!
In reply to deesspacelounge: A newton is a measure of force. A 1kg mass exerts a downward force of 10newtons on a table top. The table top to equal the force of the mass must push up with 10 newtons of force.
1KN of force is equal to 100kg of mass or 225lbs. So a 10KN karabiner can withstand the stress of a force equal in magnitude to that of the force a 1 tonne (metric) mass would exert on it. Most karabiners that I know of are rated to over 20KN.
In layman's terms 1kn = 100kg. Your combined masses while top roping will not exert a force greater than the force the karabiner can withstand.
1KN of force is equal to 100kg of mass or 225lbs. So a 10KN karabiner can withstand the stress of a force equal in magnitude to that of the force a 1 tonne (metric) mass would exert on it. Most karabiners that I know of are rated to over 20KN.
In layman's terms 1kn = 100kg. Your combined masses while top roping will not exert a force greater than the force the karabiner can withstand.
In reply to londonrocks: Your best bet is to see if it says "not for climbing" on the side. If it does, best not use it. If in doubt find someone who would know and ask them.
In reply to deesspacelounge: who cares! Its a Krab so as long as its not old or knacked it will hold you or your partner! Enjoy the climbing and forget about the physics...
In reply to deesspacelounge: Joules are a measurement of work.
In reply to deesspacelounge: Also you say a Kilo of flour, which is odd. A kilo is a unit of mass. A kilo of bricks is equal to a kilo of feathers because they both have a 1 kg mass.
In reply to abr1966: thanks! really want to understand what climbing equipment... knowledge is power!
In reply to deesspacelounge: good for you....ive been at it for coming up to 30 years and never understood any of it!
In reply to shingsowa:
LOL... I shouldn't worry about it
jk
> It is possible, ive been awake for a long time and i need my bed.
> I am gonna regret typing that come sun-up when the physics pedants turn out, aren't i?
> I am gonna regret typing that come sun-up when the physics pedants turn out, aren't i?
LOL... I shouldn't worry about it
jk
In reply to londonrocks: i'm trying to use simple know how... i'd like to say its cause i'm female but you can forget that, i'm not using that as an excuse! i just don't have understanding that you guys have...belay, ropes, sling- i got some knowing!
1kg of flour is about a large jack russell!
1kg of flour is about a large jack russell!
In reply to deesspacelounge:
I think you probably mean 7.0 kn which is a fairly standard gate open rating for a karabiner.
70 kn would be an industrial rigging shackle which would make up the weight difference between you and your partner.
Stand close to the wall and tie yourself to a ground anchor or something heavy if you're a lot lighter than your climbing partner.
> karabiner i looked at is 70kn but i don't know what kn's are equivlent to-
I think you probably mean 7.0 kn which is a fairly standard gate open rating for a karabiner.
70 kn would be an industrial rigging shackle which would make up the weight difference between you and your partner.
Stand close to the wall and tie yourself to a ground anchor or something heavy if you're a lot lighter than your climbing partner.
In reply to deesspacelounge:
Oh, and I've got a Jack Russell. It weighs a whole lot more than a bag of flour but is slightly less intelligent!
Oh, and I've got a Jack Russell. It weighs a whole lot more than a bag of flour but is slightly less intelligent!
In reply to teflonpete: your dog eats well! i got kids they wiegh alot too!
In reply to teflonpete: the karb - some have lockgates on what should i pay?
In reply to deesspacelounge:
Should be able to pick up a screwgate Karabiner for £6 - £8.
Have you had some proper instruction on belay technique?
If not, you should.
Should be able to pick up a screwgate Karabiner for £6 - £8.
Have you had some proper instruction on belay technique?
If not, you should.
In reply to londonrocks:
Well that depends what planet you are climbing on. 1kg "weighs" a lot less on the moon than the earth (or it did when I did Physics O'level many centuries ago)
> (In reply to deesspacelounge) A newton is a measure of force. A 1kg mass exerts a downward force of 10newtons on a table top.
Well that depends what planet you are climbing on. 1kg "weighs" a lot less on the moon than the earth (or it did when I did Physics O'level many centuries ago)
In reply to deesspacelounge:
Did you not see this very interesting and reassuring article and video about making karabiners at DMM?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1336
Did you not see this very interesting and reassuring article and video about making karabiners at DMM?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1336
In reply to teflonpete: i've passed and qualified for climbing, but still lack knowledge on the equipment, i understand very basic stuff, and wanted to know more details... its like cooking for the first time, you know what a knife does but knowing how to maintain and look after it are different from using to chop with.
i can belay with understanding that a life depends it and its dangling way up high! i don't get crossed arms or rope and stand close to the wall- i've learnt quickly because my partner slipped and i was ready- its taught me alot about being there for him.
i can belay with understanding that a life depends it and its dangling way up high! i don't get crossed arms or rope and stand close to the wall- i've learnt quickly because my partner slipped and i was ready- its taught me alot about being there for him.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: cheers for that i watched it and found it interesting it was like being in my old school technology lessons! i like things like this it makes me appreciate what goes into making the equipment and it reassurence on my life!
In reply to deesspacelounge:
Don't worry about the numbers, just trust that the manufacturers make them strong enough (with lots to spare). Much more important is whether you can hold your partner, or whether being pulled by his extra weight might make you drop him (or he hits the ground as you go up). If so, then you need to tie on to something at ground level. That sounds a good idea at the wall. It's not so clear cut outdoors, as you tying on to the ground increases the force on the runners which should hold him, so you might need some instruction for that.
Don't worry about the numbers, just trust that the manufacturers make them strong enough (with lots to spare). Much more important is whether you can hold your partner, or whether being pulled by his extra weight might make you drop him (or he hits the ground as you go up). If so, then you need to tie on to something at ground level. That sounds a good idea at the wall. It's not so clear cut outdoors, as you tying on to the ground increases the force on the runners which should hold him, so you might need some instruction for that.
In reply to deesspacelounge:
A Newton is a unit of force. A force is something that acts on a body to cause movement i.e. to accelerate. In climbing terms the most relevant force is gravity.
One newton is defined as the force required to make a 1kg object accelerate at 1 metre per second per second (sometimes written as m/s/s or m.s-2). Gravity causes objects to accelarate at 9.8 metres per second per second, so gravity causes a force acting on a 1kg object of 9.8 Newtons (or roughly 10 newtons to make it easier). A typical 70 kg man will exert a force due to gravity of 700 Newtons, or 0.7 kN.
1 kN = 1000 Newtons. A karabiner rated at 7 kN will withstand a force of 7000 Newtons, so it would be safe to suspend 10 people from the karabiner wouldn't it? Well yes, but in an unusual way, five would be on each end of it, pulling in different directions - and this is impossible because we are only thinking of gravity!
Things become a bit more difficult now to imagine. To keep something still when there is a force acting on it (gravity) there has to be an equal and opposite force acting in the other direction. In the case of a falling climbing that opposite force is the mass of your partner, attracted by gravity. Imagine in your mind that your belayer is lifted off the ground, and the karabiner is acting as a pulley. The force through the rope and karabiner is twice the falling persons mass x gravity alone because it is balanced by the forces acting on the belayer. In other words every time a bit of kit holds you statically in a climbing situation it has at least two people hanging off it. So even the flimsiest bit of gear should be rated for at least 2 kN (as it is always going to hold 2 x 0.7 kN) - which is what you will find for 'progression only' aid gear like microcams/micronuts.
In a fall, things are a bit more complicated again as the forces may build up unequally, and peak forces may reach 4-6 kN on a karabiner. In the static situation, force may be spread over different bits of gear in the real world, and friction may dissipate some of the force as heat.
You can read more about all of this here
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1477
NB Weight is a description of mass acted on by gravity (and should strictly be measured in Newtons), where as mass is the amount (number of atoms) in something and is measured in kilograms. So if you go to the moon where gravity is less, you will weigh less, but your mass will be unchanged.
The bottom line is that you can safely dangle five people off an open gated Karabiner rated at 7kN if all the people weigh 70kg or less and are on Earth, and the Karabiner is firmly fixed to the rock. With the gate closed, and a general rating of 22kN, you could suspend 1100kg of mass, or 15 people. If you shock load the system you can exceed these forces and cause failure of the system.
A Newton is a unit of force. A force is something that acts on a body to cause movement i.e. to accelerate. In climbing terms the most relevant force is gravity.
One newton is defined as the force required to make a 1kg object accelerate at 1 metre per second per second (sometimes written as m/s/s or m.s-2). Gravity causes objects to accelarate at 9.8 metres per second per second, so gravity causes a force acting on a 1kg object of 9.8 Newtons (or roughly 10 newtons to make it easier). A typical 70 kg man will exert a force due to gravity of 700 Newtons, or 0.7 kN.
1 kN = 1000 Newtons. A karabiner rated at 7 kN will withstand a force of 7000 Newtons, so it would be safe to suspend 10 people from the karabiner wouldn't it? Well yes, but in an unusual way, five would be on each end of it, pulling in different directions - and this is impossible because we are only thinking of gravity!
Things become a bit more difficult now to imagine. To keep something still when there is a force acting on it (gravity) there has to be an equal and opposite force acting in the other direction. In the case of a falling climbing that opposite force is the mass of your partner, attracted by gravity. Imagine in your mind that your belayer is lifted off the ground, and the karabiner is acting as a pulley. The force through the rope and karabiner is twice the falling persons mass x gravity alone because it is balanced by the forces acting on the belayer. In other words every time a bit of kit holds you statically in a climbing situation it has at least two people hanging off it. So even the flimsiest bit of gear should be rated for at least 2 kN (as it is always going to hold 2 x 0.7 kN) - which is what you will find for 'progression only' aid gear like microcams/micronuts.
In a fall, things are a bit more complicated again as the forces may build up unequally, and peak forces may reach 4-6 kN on a karabiner. In the static situation, force may be spread over different bits of gear in the real world, and friction may dissipate some of the force as heat.
You can read more about all of this here
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1477
NB Weight is a description of mass acted on by gravity (and should strictly be measured in Newtons), where as mass is the amount (number of atoms) in something and is measured in kilograms. So if you go to the moon where gravity is less, you will weigh less, but your mass will be unchanged.
The bottom line is that you can safely dangle five people off an open gated Karabiner rated at 7kN if all the people weigh 70kg or less and are on Earth, and the Karabiner is firmly fixed to the rock. With the gate closed, and a general rating of 22kN, you could suspend 1100kg of mass, or 15 people. If you shock load the system you can exceed these forces and cause failure of the system.
In reply to londonrocks:
Strictly speaking a mass of 100kg exerts a force of 0.98kN when being measured under earth's gravity (9.8m/s/s) (this is a "lie for children" as the actual numbers vary and are more specific than the above).
To the OP: as long as your carabiner is designed for climbing you should be fine in the situation you describe.
> (In reply to deesspacelounge)
> 1KN of force is equal to 100kg of mass or 225lbs. So a 10KN karabiner can withstand the stress of a force equal in magnitude to that of the force a 1 tonne (metric) mass would exert on it. Most karabiners that I know of are rated to over 20KN.
>
> In layman's terms 1kn = 100kg. Your combined masses while top roping will not exert a force greater than the force the karabiner can withstand.
> 1KN of force is equal to 100kg of mass or 225lbs. So a 10KN karabiner can withstand the stress of a force equal in magnitude to that of the force a 1 tonne (metric) mass would exert on it. Most karabiners that I know of are rated to over 20KN.
>
> In layman's terms 1kn = 100kg. Your combined masses while top roping will not exert a force greater than the force the karabiner can withstand.
Strictly speaking a mass of 100kg exerts a force of 0.98kN when being measured under earth's gravity (9.8m/s/s) (this is a "lie for children" as the actual numbers vary and are more specific than the above).
To the OP: as long as your carabiner is designed for climbing you should be fine in the situation you describe.
In reply to soveda:
Not by enough for it to matter unless you're launching spacecraft or surveying
Bingo.
> Strictly speaking a mass of 100kg exerts a force of 0.98kN when being measured under earth's gravity (9.8m/s/s) (this is a "lie for children" as the actual numbers vary and are more specific than the above).
Not by enough for it to matter unless you're launching spacecraft or surveying
> To the OP: as long as your carabiner is designed for climbing you should be fine in the situation you describe.
Bingo.
In reply to soveda:
Absolutely bloody brilliant, this means i can now claim i am having a crap day due to extra high gravity. Is there a website that posts daily gravity like the surf forcast??
> (In reply to londonrocks)
> [...]
>
> Strictly speaking a mass of 100kg exerts a force of 0.98kN when being measured under earth's gravity (9.8m/s/s) (this is a "lie for children" as the actual numbers vary and are more specific than the above).
>
> [...]
>
> Strictly speaking a mass of 100kg exerts a force of 0.98kN when being measured under earth's gravity (9.8m/s/s) (this is a "lie for children" as the actual numbers vary and are more specific than the above).
>
Absolutely bloody brilliant, this means i can now claim i am having a crap day due to extra high gravity. Is there a website that posts daily gravity like the surf forcast??
In reply to soveda: Next time I'll remember to be as pedantic as possible. I know that the speed of light is 299,782,458 meters per second and not 300 million but its just easier to write, and explain.
Again I know that a mass of 100kg only exerts a .98KN force but only in the presence of the Earth's Gravity and not lets say the moon's because the weight of the Mass changes and thus the force exerted changes on the karabiner. But don't you think that how great a mass or weight that a karabiner can hold on the moon is some what irrelevant?
Again I know that a mass of 100kg only exerts a .98KN force but only in the presence of the Earth's Gravity and not lets say the moon's because the weight of the Mass changes and thus the force exerted changes on the karabiner. But don't you think that how great a mass or weight that a karabiner can hold on the moon is some what irrelevant?
In reply to deesspacelounge:
1kg of flour = large jack russell according to dee = 1kg of feathers = 1kg of cannon balls = 1kg of tea = 1kg of slings = 1kg of air = 1kg of mushrooms =1kg of me = 1kg of you!
> 1kg of flour is about a large jack russell!
1kg of flour = large jack russell according to dee = 1kg of feathers = 1kg of cannon balls = 1kg of tea = 1kg of slings = 1kg of air = 1kg of mushrooms =1kg of me = 1kg of you!
In reply to londonrocks:
Glad to hear it.
Quite, hence the more relevant part of my post.
Oh and gravity varies with where you are on the earth's surface too (poles vs. equator for example) just not enough for it to matter in day to day life.
;*)
> (In reply to soveda) Next time I'll remember to be as pedantic as possible. I know that the speed of light is 299,782,458 meters per second and not 300 million but its just easier to write, and explain.
>
>
Glad to hear it.
> Again I know that a mass of 100kg only exerts a .98KN force but only in the presence of the Earth's Gravity and not lets say the moon's because the weight of the Mass changes and thus the force exerted changes on the karabiner. But don't you think that how great a mass or weight that a karabiner can hold on the moon is some what irrelevant?
Quite, hence the more relevant part of my post.
Oh and gravity varies with where you are on the earth's surface too (poles vs. equator for example) just not enough for it to matter in day to day life.
;*)
In reply to Castleman: hehehe jack russell, a highland westies is a good weight about 2 stone, i chased the nieghbours dog and picked him up he's a heavy fella. then i returned him cause he actually escaped!
In reply to muppetfilter: so how much weight/ force/torque do you think a standard harness can take?
In reply to deesspacelounge:
so how much weight/ force/torque do you think a standard harness can take?
Much more than the human body can take.
so how much weight/ force/torque do you think a standard harness can take?
Much more than the human body can take.
In reply to edmitchell: i think i want to avoid falling that sounds crazy! can't believe how he fell, hospital details on his foot aren't to pretty either!
In reply to muppetfilter: any recommendations on what harness to get, the instrictor mentioned the difference between male and female harnesses only i can't tell the differences cause on the course everyone had the same one on?!
In reply to deesspacelounge: Female one look better with kitten heels and a handbag.
The best harness for you is one that is comfy to hang in. Try lots of different ones, adjustable leg loops are good for times when you climb outside and may want to be wearing more clothing layers.
The best harness for you is one that is comfy to hang in. Try lots of different ones, adjustable leg loops are good for times when you climb outside and may want to be wearing more clothing layers.
1n = 1 kg·m/s² so a newton is the force unit it equals the force needed to accelerate a 1kg weight at a rate of one meter per second as apposed to an actual weight (the actual weight being 1kg)
1 Kilonewton = 1000 Newtons
all weights are a measure of force i guess but most are based on stationary objects newtons are a messure of force calculted by accelertion & static weight over time..... i think dont quote me
1 Kilonewton = 1000 Newtons
all weights are a measure of force i guess but most are based on stationary objects newtons are a messure of force calculted by accelertion & static weight over time..... i think dont quote me
In reply to deesspacelounge:
African or European Swallow?
Sorry, wrong thread.
Good luck with the biner. If you need any further physics advice I think you're in the right place, the mass here is quite knowledgable.
African or European Swallow?
Sorry, wrong thread.
Good luck with the biner. If you need any further physics advice I think you're in the right place, the mass here is quite knowledgable.
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