UKC

At a local crag the top is pretty bare but they do have some belay stakes, they look rusted but don’t move and seem pretty solid. The only problem is they are far apart and there’s nothing else to add as a backup.

would you trust a belay stake on its own? Of course Iv inspected it and it seems solid but no idea if it’s trusted beneath.

For anyone that’s familiar I’m referring to the stakes on top of the Conwy slabs. I don’t currently have any trad gear and just wanted to rig up a top rope for some light climbing locally.

Thanks in advance for any wise words.

That's a very well used venue with outdoor groups. I appreciate they might have had less use over the past year but I would be very surprised if they've become unusable.

" . . . but don’t move and seem pretty solid . . ."

This in essence is all you can do. It's your assessment and your decision. Look at the thin wire on a mid size nut and then look / kick / wiggle the stake and ask yourself which looks the thicker / stronger / more secure ?

If depends on the situation, but to give you an example on Cleeve Hill I often rely on a single stake (for shunting). I give them a kick and if they don't move, don't look obviously corroded that's good enough for me. With the rope cutting into soft ground and over the edge the friction means the load on the stake is very low. On a sea cliff I might be a bit less blase and hunt around for a back up, but even in this situation I have abbed off single stakes in the past. As always it's a judgement call. 

I normally try really hard two use two stakes rather than just one, even if I need to use lots of rope... 

Anyway if you want some test data, pretty much the only decent research I am aware of has been done by Jim Titt. There's a summary on his website (scroll down the page a fair way) - http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

If you're worried, dig your heels in and clench your cheeks.

At one of my local crags the belay stakes were definitely  past their best.

I obtained some galvanised scaffold tube, about 900 mm long , and used my 14 lb sledge hammer to supplement the old stakes. Left in the old ones that did not pull out. Problem solved for twenty years.

The local bolt fund , climbers or instructors  might be interested in doing some stake placement.

If there is the posibility of gear placement at top of crag measure the crack and buy one nut.

Or if not, as long as the site isn't an sssi or similar, a length of scaffolding pole as mentioned above, cut the end to a spike with an angle grinder if the ground is hard or has smallish rocks.

Got to be worth spending 10 pounds for the peace of mind

I put things into the ground for a living.

Leave the end square cut, if the 14 lb hammer is not enough, trust me , its not going in unless you have a 50 mm mega drill.

Probably posted this story before but

Did a route at Hurlestone Point,  it finished with a horrible run out up what seemed vertical grass until I arrived at a lonely belay stake consisting of 1 inch OD steam/gas pipe which I threw a sling around with immense relief. Before bringing up my second; for some reason I thought "I wonder how corroded this is?" so I stuck my finger into it, Then when I tried to get my finger out "story of my life" I encountered the burr from it being driven in; for several moments I thought "this is going to be a very embarrassing rescue.

A sage piece of advice I was given by an old hand at work the first time I got involved with assembling steel structures applies here: "Remember lad, never put your finger where you wouldn't put your nob."

Short answer: no.

It might be fine, but you're risking your life if it's not. Find a way to back it up using another rope if necessary due to very spaced anchor options.

More generally, I've seen people climbing outside for the first time due to covid and wall closures, and I've already seen dangerous practices.

The other day, I was out and saw two young'uns as green as saplings with bright, shiny gear looking to set up a top rope. I was glad I pointed out a bomber thread, because when I saw their set up 20 minutes later, apart from the thread, they had a very poor cam placement that I wouldn't hang my washing off and a shallow sling just waiting to be blown off, and none of their anchors were equalised - the poor placements were just clipped onto the line separately and loosely. 

I've also seen at another crag a fabulously complex set up with about 10 slings involved, but only one rope so that the top-rope wasn't extended over the edge. A good way to pull a load of loose crap down on you as the rope plays along the bank at the top of the cliff or even to saw through your rope if you're very unlucky.

If you're not sure, then do question whether you know enough to judge what is and isn't safe. And, more experienced climbers - do keep an eye out and for people doing dangerous things, and do what you can to steer them gently toward safer practices.

Just in case it needs saying: do they look actually rusted in the way they could be rusted *through* (as *could* happen to e.g. a scaffolding pole that is a hollow tube of metal, like you might see with old car bodywork or something), or do they just look brown and corroded on the surface (like you might see on some old steel rebar the thickness of your finger that's sticking out of old reinforced concrete [best example I could think of...])?

In many cases a brown and corroded stake made of solid metal (best part of a cm thick of metal) *might* be entirely structurally sound. Needs judgement and experience, and thought about the level of risk you're willing to accept, but it would be rare to encounter any belay stake that was not brown.

How do you cut the end of a scaffold pole into a spike?

E

Read “How do you like your stake” from one of our local MCIs 

https://www.avon-mc.org.uk/2016/08/stake/

It’s what’s under the ground that really matters and some of the stakes are getting on a bit...

I like using scaffold tube offcuts for several reasons.

Can obtain them at zero cost. Actually quite cheap to buy anyway.

A lot of metal to corrode.

One can look down the tube to assess length and condition . May corrode more on outside ? Actually on joblist to pull some five year old placements and assess the condition. Its only a five mile cycle.

Its feasible to hammer a 40/45 mm solid bar down the inside of the tube to reinforce the original.

Angle grinder

How do you cut a scaffold tube into a spike?

My angle grinder pisses through thin air

To be honest, the stake we made was with some angle iron rather than a scaffold pole, but can't see why the grinder wouldn't work on both if you thought a pointy bit might aid penetration. I imagined it would, but sounds like you have a lot more experience in this field. 

Alternatively, as you said, don't bother with the spike and just whack the hell out of it with a sledgehammer. 

I think Enty's question was not so much what tool do you use to put a put a point on a scaffold pole but more, 'how do you put a point on a hollow tube?' You can't do it like you would for a solid pole,(like a pencil tip). If that was his question then it's just an angled cut rather than a cone. 

Ah, I'm with you (and Enty) now, sorry was being rather slow. (face/palm)

Indeed, thats what I was imagining.

You just buy a putlog from your friendly scaffolder, it's already flattened on the end and you could make it pointed easily enough. If it's really rocky which a lot of cliff-tops are you buy a buck-rake tine which are certified, solid and of good quality steel, buy the nut at the same time.

I'm not familiar with the specific site but my 2 cents:

1) You really want 2 stakes if they seem solid and 3 if they might be a little questionable.

2) If you can only find 1 stake, why not add another yourself? You can buy a suitable piece of angle iron for about £1 and bash it in just fine with a rock.

3) Make sure you anchor your rope at the base of the stake to minimise the leverage force.

When you do some experimenting, it turns out that stakes really don't have to be that far in to be solid enough to lower off, although it's fair to say that if you are going to be bouncing around on them while shunting or something, it will put more force through the system.

You shouldn't need to put a spike on the end of your stakes. If you are driving it into any kind of normal earth then just hit it with a bigger rock/hammer. A spike might help when driving it into gravel or rocks but I'd be pretty dubious about trusting any stake driven into gravel or rocks.

Since we’re talking about belay stakes I will mention Anchor Systems who do removable helical ground anchors.

(no connection - just a customer)

https://www.anchorsystems.co.uk/products/helical-anchors/#product-bottom

 they will sell direct on a pro forma (payment in advance)
These go in very easily without needing a big hammer and you can remove them easily afterwards leaving very little trace.

 Some caveats:

• they are galvanised so not really suitable to leave in permanently. (But the whole point is that they are easy to remove and inspect)
•  They are more expensive than off cuts of scaff pole but a lot cheaper than dedicated belay stakes. (HA1200 was £45 last year)
•  They handle roots very well but will not get past large rocks.
•  Don’t go smaller than the HA1200 (1.2m of 20mm rod) for safety reasons. We bent a smaller one putting it into rocky soil.
• Holding power depends on the soil (of course). In soft ground they would benefit from something placed across the direction of load at the surface (branch?) to protect against them cutting through the Soil under load.
• i would still back them up with something else!

 Another option if you want to bring your own stake with you but leave no trace.

The other point about delaying is that the belayer is part of the system.  Even untethered, a belayer can sit with braced feet and take a lot of load, especially if the rope is guided over the edge to add friction.  Plus not allowing slack to the second to reduce any shock load.