UKC

some one has taken the tat on trees to the abseil points of shadrach and the vector buttress . Bit pissed off because some body might still use the trees and they will be damaged by the ropes.

In reply to IOAN D: Probably because there's no need to abseil off. It really doesn't take long for the hardened mountaineers to be found at Tremadog to walk off, they could consider it training for the long flog into Stanage Popular End.

In reply to CENSORED:

Just posted something similar on the "abseil backup" thread. Can't understand why anyone'd want to faff with abbing off the top of Tremadog when there's a perfectly good path down where you won't ring-bark a tree, get your ropes tangled in the foliage below, throw them (and yourself) down on other parties, etc.

Walked off the top of Christmas Curry last weekend. It took about 15 minutes. It wouldn't have taken significantly less time for us to set up an ab and get our party of 3 down.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Good god, yes. That path off the top of Bwlch y Moch is one of the most user friendly paths off any crag in the universe. You just trot down it and you're back at the road in c. 5 mins. Probably faster than two people can set up and use an abseil. Very similar to Wild Cat - abseiling off trees there is sheer laziness. As if there's anything wrong with the beautiful, very fast and exceptionally easy descent path.

In reply to Rob Naylor: We've been here before, but ring barking is caused by pulling down a rope that has been wrapped round a tree. A loosely tied sling does not ring bark the tree - in fact it was not so long ago that the BMC was encouraging the placing of slings round trees in the Pass for people to ab from.

In reply to John2:

I know...but that was just highlighting one of the possible problems caused by abbing at places like Tremadog. Yes, some people would put a sling around a tree, but others would say "why lose a sling?" and just put the rope around the tree direct.

I think that'd be irrespective of whether there was in-situ tat there. Would you trust your life to exisiting tat? Not many people I know would, unless it was unavoidable. If it was a wire rope, or chain, maybe. A sling, no.

It still doesn't alter the fact that there's NO need to ab from Bwlch y Moch after finishing a route. I just find it incomprehensible that people want to do it, to the extent of moaning about the removal of existing tat (which I'd never use anyway).

In reply to IOAN D:

Personally i have trouble walking down hill and i can't remember the last time i walked down from Tremadog.

Don't worry the ab. slings they will be back after this weekend. Or failing that just use the tree .Its a renewable resource .

At least by abing you get more routes done.

In reply to anonymous1:

Trolls always abb....

In reply to ChrisJD:

excellent news, considering the people who ab. then i am in excellent company.

In reply to CENSORED:

That involves using..your legs..right? No call for that at climbing walls

In reply to IOAN D:

In the case of Vector Buttress,if you mean the one that goes down Grim Wall direct, good. It takes two abseils which is longer than walking down and I'm fed up with idiots dropping ropes on my head when I'm on the climb. Similarly, what idiot would want to abseil down Shadrach one of the most well-used climbs at Tremo? It's crag etiquette really. If it's convenient, walk down. Don't kill trees by dragging ropes round them (a dead tree is dangerous too!). On the other hand, I don't see why you shouldn't abseil if it is not down a climb and a proper metal sling is put around the tree.

In reply to Pekkie:


I was just going to say the same; having been abseiled over whilst leading Grim Wall Direct. I complained half-heartedly (being on the crux when the first person threw the ropes down on me) but they carried on anyway. I simply don't understand the mentality of these people.

In reply to JonC:

I thought that was why I always go climbing with a knive.

In reply to JonC: i didn't mind the ropes so much as the shit that followed their ropes down when they pulled them through. Forunately the idiots weren't wearing helmets and got battered with the shit they dislodged, although they then proceeded to reinforce their idiot status by shouting up at us to be careful about disldoging things (I'd just got a large rock on my lid), so I simply responded by telling them to p*ss off!

In reply to IOAN D:
Oh good god, here we go again. Somebody posts an informative post and immediately the ethics police comes on to loudly spout their views on abseiling off crags. I don't know which is more sad, the fact that they've bothered to start preaching (again) or the fact that I've bothered to reply.

When will people accept that without the tat people are going to abseil off the trees anyway, causing the death of a pair of perfectly pleasant trees.

Thus there are two options:
1) moan about the lack of standards in british climbing incessantly on online forums, or
2) replace the tat and so prevent any further damage to the tree.

I'm glad that at least one person above has enough of a life to do the latter.

In reply to Alun: or 3 point out that some people will always be selfish pricks and throw ropes down routes that people are climbing on with no regard for the people already in-situ, because a 10 minute walk might take them 2 minutes longer than their abseil. Let's face it if you can save 2 minutes of your 'important' time, then why should it matter if you inconvenience or injure someone else, regardless of the presence of any tat, metal loop or otherwise?

In reply to CENSORED:
I sympathise with your position, but you have completely missed the point of my post. I deliberately did not condone or criticise people abseiling, I merely pointed out that, no matter how loud you shout, people are going to ab off Tremadog, so you might as well do something to minimise the damage it causes to trees. Shouting about it on an internet forum is not going to change things, I'm afraid.

For the record, I agree that there is a perfectly good path at Tremadog which I use frequently when I am there. I have only abbed once from the tree at the top of Grim Wall, because it was dark and we were 100% sure that there was nobody underneath us.

In reply to Alun: I apologise for my venomous response, i currently have all the time in the world to argue that black is white on internet forums, as I'm recovering from a minor surgical procedure, which puts me out of ction until mid-june, so basically I'm bored!

Sorry.

(However I agree with you, if there's no-one there and there's a metal loop, or some tat that you trust then go ahead, but for the extra 2 minutes, I prefer the walk off and some quality time with my climbing partner on the walk down!)

In reply to Alun:

I also take your point but I don't think it's a simple "ethics police" issue. That ab point above Grim Wall is a real liability to people leading up.

The third option which you failed to mention is a very large BMC sign by the tree saying "no f*cking abseiling".

In reply to IOAN D:

I was Trem this year on a beautiful crisp wimters day in Janurary. I Purposly bought with me a 2 Metre lenth of Static and a mallion.
My friend and I are pushing our grade a bit and Friend is not too experienced with Abbing, so I used the day to show him how to set up safe Abb points for escaping from routes / weather etc.
As it was his first time at Trem, We did 'One Step' and then walked off using the perfectly good path. After 'Grim - Direct' We abbed from the tree with the tangle of tat. I advised him to ignore all the tat and to set 'ours' up, and to Abb from the mallion, set up a 'Back-up', heavy man down first etc etc, and althogh nervious, he claimed to feel safe. Next route was Grim wall (ordinary) as i knew it would soon be dark and a dark Abb, would be good experiance too.
Whilst i'm happy to Abb from anywhere, I set myself certain rules, and my friend has followed suit:

I NEVER Abb from other tat, always using my own, a sling and a screw gate/mallion costs about the same as a session at the climbing wall?

I never Abb if i don't have to. If there is a path, I'd rather use it.

I always use a back-up system.

I'm not saying that I am 'super-safe' for instance, I don't seem to be able to get on with prussics, but know that i should make more effort. Remember that more accidents occur on Abbs rather than the climbing...
We lost the great Tom Patey to the dredded Abb after all? I not saying do as I do either, just pointing out that as climbers we are free to make our own choices, but whatever course of action you decide to take, it is you that is utimatly responsible if things go wrong. It is entirly possible that someone will slip and snap an ankle on the Trem decent path, and we'd all be blamimg the 'tat remover' for the accident!!
I Don't think there is any right or wrong, Just right and wrong in our own eyes?

In reply to blanchie14c:

A balanced post in some respects but...


It would seem you broke your own rule in this instance, no?

Also, after your ab in the dark, did you walk back up and remove your tat or did you just leave it there to add to the mess around that tree?

In reply to blanchie14c:


Would we? To quote the great Al Downie "ARSE"!!As a climber, I take responsibility for my own actions, I don't blame someone else for removing tat if I break my ankle in a completely different location because I'm not looking where I put my feet.

In reply to JonC:

Well spotted! but i had pointed out the the Abbs we did that day were for 'training purposes', There in fact a team on grim wall direct when we topped out on 'One step', hence the reason we walked off.
I did in fact leave my tat in place, hands up there, but hence the mallion. Rope burns through tat when we pull the ropes through (eventually anwyway) so as i was leaving the tat, I left the mallion in place, as it is common knowlage that other climbers will Abb at that point. If i am contibuting to a problem, the least i can do is make it safer? If someone Abbed off my tat and it failed, it would not be my fault, but being human, i would suffer the guilt, believing in some way that by leaving the tat in the first place, i suggested it was safe? The mallion simply reduces the chance of failure, and possibly eases my concience.
Contaversal maybe, but i am not afraid to say it how it is, and other forum users should too. (although most do)

By saying WE would blame the tat remover, I saying WE as in someone would be quite happy to, i never ment WE as in us who have taken part in this disscusion. My fault for not making that point clear. We know that one climber has to make a statement, say to the media, and joe puplic believes that is how all climbers think. That is the point i'd tried to get across.

Going back to my point about 'training' my friend, Climbers learn from each other and that is always how its been, also, what if i was lying with a busted leg on a ledge somewhere? I need to know my partner is able to retreat safely to get help for me, and for him to be as safe as is possilbe given the situation. (god forbid)

P.S.
120 dyneema and screw gate left at the belay point on Valkyie recently too!

In reply to Alun:

But would you ab off existing tat anyway? If not (and I reckon most people in their right minds would say "no" to that) then why get worked up about a bunch of old tat being removed?

And I disagree that "shouting" about stuff like this on internet forums has no effect. I know at least 2 people who've revised their attitudes to indiscriminate abbing due to stuff they've read on here. If the "ethics police" you disparage so strongly have the effect of changing the habits of even a few people, I reckon that's a positive thing.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

If you mean to ask whether I trust tat, then by and large the answer is yes, especially if it's a bit fat loop of 10mm static rope, and it looks in good nick.


Read my first post. (The bit about the the fact that, if it's removed, some donkeys are going to abb off the tree without tat, and kill it).

...then you wrote.

As you rightly point out, if nobody gets worked up about it...nothing happens :P

The particular reason I disparage the ethics police is, in my opinion, their lofty ethics don't really exist in the real world. No doubt I will get flamed for that, but it's true. In this situation the whole ethics thing might cause the death of a perfectly good tree. I'm no tree-hugging hippy, but I find this baffling.

I'm sure we can all agree that, where there is an alternative route down, abseiling down on top of people is a very naughty thing and people shouldn't do it. Though I can't see the ethics police approving signs at the top of each crag saying that!

In reply to Rob Naylor:

I always examine any tat careful but in most cases when there are 3,4 or more strands I'll use what is there. Cases where I've replaced tat with my own are definately in the minority. I'm often more concerned about the size of the tree rather than the number of bits of tat.

I keep planning on getting hold of a some cheap static 10/11mm rope and some abseil rings to 'upgrade' ab points at a few locations. I was thinking that a date tag might be a useful idea as well so people can know how old it is.
If 11mm rope is used with a mallion or ring it will be safe for many many years.

As for the Tremadog situation I would be equally in favour of either of the following two approches:

1) New substantial tat with mallions/rings
or
2) 'Official' signs at both the base of the cliff and by the specific trees stating 'Please do not Abseil'.

It is no use just having signs by the trees because people normally commit to abseiling or walking off at the start the route when they decide whether to carry approach shoes and/or rucsacs with them up the route.

M

PS At some stage out of curiosity I may actually time both methods at Tremadog and see how long they actually take. Abseiling is never as quick as you think it will be but walking off still takes a fair while if you need to return to the base of the route to retrieve kit.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:
How about reason Number 37, install some dedicated bolted abseil stations

There's more reasons to climb at Tremadog...

In reply to Alun:



I think you are making a very sweeping judgement about the self policing of ethics by the climbing community. Clearly there are a few people who bang on about things that don't really matter (because, at the end of the day, the rock wasn't damaged and other people were not inconvenienced). A lot of fashion police / top rope debates are like this.

As far as abseiling at Tremadog is concerned, however, all people are doing is restating the official policy of the land managers (the BMC)- they are not getting on their personal soapbox. For anyone who hasn't worked out how to access the guidelines for the use of the crag, here are the relevent ones. Pretty clear, really:

3. Cliff Top Descents: The BMC recommends climbers to descend by walking down the paths and gullies marked in the guidebook and on the noticeboard in the parking bay beneath Vector. The cliff top path is cleared of vegetation annually by Snowdonia NPA wardens to ensure that it remains passable. If you need to abseil off the crag (say if it is raining or getting dark), take care not to abseil or throw ropes onto people below you as this is both dangerous and very unsociable for other climbers - don’t forget, you could be on the receiving end one day.

4. Trees: All individual climbers and instructors can help to reduce damage to trees and tree roots by using rock belays whenever possible and not running abseil ropes directly around trees.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Since when do you need approach shoes or rucksacks to walk off at Tremadog?

In reply to Alun:

But it's generally not. It's generally several bits of sun-whitened old tape.

Or use their own tat, if (as is usual) the in-situ tat is as described above. If you're arguing for a permanent installation of wire or rope with maillon, then that's a different matter...but I'd rather see "No Abbing" signs on the trees than that, IMPO.


But is old tat removal really going to have much effect on the trees? If you're the type of person not to trust old tat, then you'll add your own anyway (or ring the tree even though it has tat round it already), at least until there are 4-5 newish looking bits there that you *might* take a risk on. If there's no tat there and you absolutely *must* abseil then you'll either use your own or ring the tree. I reckon the percentage of tree-ringers vs use-your-own would be similar whether or not there was already in-situ old tat, hence my bafflement at people getting worked up at its removal.


See my point above.


I'd be happy to see "No Abbing...use the Path" signs there. Lesser of 2 evils, IMO.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

First off there are signs at the bottom of the crag at tremadog telling you not to absail and informing you of location of the (good) descent paths. As for time the diffrence will be at most 5 mins and with 2-3 pitch routes I don't think anybody will loose the 1-1.5hrs over a day that would make up the time required for another route. Last time I was there I think we carried aproach shoes and waterproofs in a single sack. Though I have walked off that crag in rock shoes. In short absailing there isn't needed and doesn't speed anything up significantly so why bother? Has climbing really degernerated to the point where people are so lazy that a 1/4 mile walk off from a road side crag is too much hassel?

As for tat or fixed anchors if the policy is one of walk offs then they should be removed as leaving them will just encourage the ignorant (i.e. those who haven't read the notices or the access section of the guidebook) to think that absailing is the approved deccent of that crag and start chucking ropes down the line of Xmass Curry...

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Did it about 4 years ago, though not by design. The party on the next climb abbed off and we walked down, having finished at the same time. We hit the car park at Eric's within a minute of each other.

If you're on B-y-M there's little need to retreive kit, as it's as easy to gear up in the car park as anywhere.

In reply to GrahamD:
Your post is a very good one, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, apart from one thing


which is not what they were doing, if you re-read the first few replies to the OP, they were jumping soap-boxes to condemn all abseiling off Tremadog.

Anyway, it was a good idea to re-state the BMC's guidelines, they are excellent.

In reply to Alun: Actually, the place I have a problem with abseiling at is only Craig Bwlch Y Moch, most of the other buttresses are at least 2 mins too far to walk for the average abseiler.

In reply to Alun:


Are you not getting out much at the minute, as you keep coming back to reply...

In reply to CENSORED:

It's raining And of course I really should be working :P

In reply to Rob Naylor:

That makes sense. Although if you were wanting to climb Grim Wall and then Shadrack fo example abseiling would be quicker.


I've geared up there. I also often decide I'd prefer to a have a rucsac with me containing water, food, spare cloths, waterproofs and extra gear etc. Especially if it's busy you may have to queue for routes or chance plans about what to climb and some flexibility is useful.

IIRC I've probably walked off over 80% of the times I'e climber there. But like all threads on here, this will probably make me consider my actions more carefully next time I'm there.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: I've walked off wearing rock boot enough times that I'm NOT doing it again.

1) It's bloody uncomfortable.
2) It's downright dangerous when damp.
3) It gets your nicely 'squeeked' rock boots filthy and they take ages to get clean again.

M

In reply to IOAN D:


I would reccomend that you carry a small amount of tat with you as standard to ensure that you are not inconvenienced in this way again.

In reply to Jamie B.:

Indeed!, you can buy cord for about 50p a metre anyway, and it can also be used for prussics.

Clearing off old tat is probably safer than leaving it for some fool to trust and ab off. If no-one cleared it it would be there until it rotted off or snapped/melted.

Rather lose a tree than a life, but rather not lose either!

In reply to davidwright:

I have and i always will ab at tremadoc. thats that, no discussion needed at all on that one.

However, why is it acceptable to ab off left wall, and right wall on the Cromlech, on the insitu tat and its not at tremadoc. And no one complains

No ones going , oh dear some nasty climber abbed down past me on the cromlech are they. So is it one of the following :.

The bumbling elements in the climbing world cant walk as far as the Cromlech so they dont climb there and so dont complain about it.

Tremadoc attracts the kind of climber who is a beginner/bumbler and hence anything out of the norm makes them shite themselves and ''oh no some absieling '

Or more probable, i'll climb some shite V Diff route that people ab down and start complaing about it ''

What should happen is what happens now. There are certain areas where there is tat in place for abbing down to the bottom. These ab points are out of the line of any climbs and hence they wont affect anyone. On a different note :

As for the people who abbed down Left wall whilst i was leading Resurection thanks for asking if it was ok, course it was , and thanks for saying hello as you came past. No problem , and thanks for abbing and not walking down.And thanks for checking if it was ok to pull the ropes through as i was climbing near them, with no gear. No problem cheers for asking.

As for the '' dont abb at Tremadoc brigade '' Moaning gits, the lot of you .

In reply to anonymous1:

I guess your the sort of selfish tosser who ignores access agreements as well.

In reply to anonymous1:



Which includes the land managers, of course. Its not only the other climbers.

In reply to IOAN D:
What needs to happen at Tremadog is a wholesale plane-drop of some sort of plant disease virus, or maybe some napalm, then there'd be no need for any abbing in future would there?

In reply to Si dH:

Probably more eco friendly to install a wasps nest in each tree.

In reply to anonymous1:


Abseil over me when I'm leading on tremadog, or the Cromlech and I'll punch your f*cking lights out, no discussion needed at all on that one.

Youc cock!

In reply to GrahamD:

never ignored an access agreement in my life, however, i cannot see any problem in abbing down a gully/rockface which has no climbers, in, on or near it. It causes no one any harm .

If you decided to have a romp on Vector Butress one afternoon, say the top pitches of sultans, cream and void how would you go about doing it then without abbing and climbing a load of pitches you didnt want to do.??? .

In reply to CENSORED:

well if someone absield over me i'd be f*cking annoyed as well. But people dont and havent.( well except some Japs in the alps and one of them died. )

In reply to anonymous1: It's the only reason I rant about it, nothing personal, I apologise for calling you a cock!

In reply to CENSORED:

No offense taken, everyone who knows me would no doubt agree with you whole hearedly .

In reply to CENSORED:
It makes me laugh how climbes pretend to be hard, climbing hard and being hard arent really related are they!!

Stevo

In reply to anonymous1:

As to your points.

I think a lot of the debate about this one is the Grim Wall abseil which goes down the line of Grim Wall Direct, E1. Hardly a V Diff or for bumblies.

I suspect that the people who are moaning about this are quite happy to walk up to the Cromlech. In fact, I would think that it precisely the reverse of the picture you paint. It's the true mountain lovers who consider abbing off a roadside crag to be ridiculous. Abseiling is fine in the right context, as a way off a small and busy roadside crag it seems ludicrous.

Without wanting to rise to the bait or be insulting, you sound like a bit of an idiot to be honest and seem to be trying on some elitist bullsh*t ie. you have led E6 therefore you must be right. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. You still need to justify your actions/comments and you've failed to do so. Maybe you didn't mean it quite as badly as it came across though..?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

i'd agree with your there , all the 'hard' climbers i know are real pussy cats really.

In reply to anonymous1:


I *have* been abseiled over whilst leading Grim Wall Direct and I was in no position at the time to punch them, unfortunately. Which was my point and why I do get annoyed about this.

In reply to JonC:

I agree about grim wall especially as if you walk to the left of the crag facing out there is an ab point that avoids everyone. Or you can down climb Xmas Curry just as qiuck as ab.

The point i am trying (badly) to make is that there should be no problem with abbing at Tremadoc. Its a large crag and there are areas that abbing do not and would not affect anyone. So why try and ban it and chop all the tat ???

As for elitist , i'm not elitist at all . I just do what i enjoy and do my own thing .

In reply to anonymous1:


Didn't Jimmy Jewel do that once too often?

But, seriously, what IS the problem with the walk off? I was there after rain a couple of weekends ago and despite mud it really wasn't a problem. And to my mind it is safer than abbing, for all concerned.


Well the BMC do consider there to be an issue with it and I have to say that I agree (if only because people do commonly abseil down the lines of routes and don't abseil at more remote points).


So why bang on about bumblies and V Diffs? If anything, Trem is not very good at lower grades and is more of a mid grade climbers venue.

In reply to anonymous1:
What pisses me off is when I'm leading Grim wall direct and some tw*t abs down over my head almost killing me. People should bear that in mind when chucking the ropes down this popular route that they're likely to be chucking it at some climber.

In reply to anonymous1:

If you can see if there is anyone in the fall line of any shit dislodged during an abseil at Bwlch y Moch, you have better x ray vision than I have !

In reply to anonymous1:
>that abbing do not and would not affect anyone. So why try and ban it and chop all the tat ???

This is clearly not true. If the norm were to abseil rather than walk off, any busy weekend there would be a real traffic jam at any abseil points and it would be a steady stream of rubble from the top.

You can't have a guideline that says only E5 climbers are allowed to abseil - you need a guideline which is the safest (and fastest) option for the majority. Think of the tossers who belt up the hard shoulder when the motorway stops - sure it works for them most of the time but it soon breaks down if a) there is an accident or b) everyone does it.

In reply to GrahamD:
You lot really are something else. You seem to be going round in circles insuting each other, which may be good fun but remains a bit pointless.

There is nothing wrong with abseiling off at tremadog if its done in the right place.

Dont ab down Grim Wall Direct, Ab down just left (looking out) from The Brothers.
Don't ab down Yogi, ab down the slab to its right (looking out).
Don't ab down Striptease or the Fang, ab down the relatively unpopular routes either side of them. I could go on, surfice to say there are more than enough trees to ab off at tremadog.

As long you don't cock up anyone else's day whats it matter if you walk or ab. I remember the days when Plas y Brenin supplied wire strops round a few trees for semi permanent ab points. After some BMC soul searching these disappeared after a year, which was a great shame, I thought they were a great idea, just not above popular routes.

Dave Ferguson

In reply to Anonymous:


Who's to judge that ? you ? me ? the first time VS leader ? Of course there is a problem establishing a general "abseils OK for all" approach at Tremadog. Very rapidly a) the path will fall into disrepair b) some poor sap is going to be hurt either abseiling or by an abseiler.

The BMC guidelines are not there just to annoy people - they have a good reason behind them.

In reply to IOAN D: I would be grateful,that someone has the common sense to remove them from time to time, the endless ropes pulling through could eventually wear through the sheaf and then whats next. Take your own Tat if you insist on abseiling off, a bit of 10MM cord will cost you next to nothing.

And here is a top tip for free, you can use it as a rather large chalkbag belt.

The paths at tremadog were over grown because of all the abseiling the BMC has just done a load of clearing recently, I think it came back into vogue when the BMC had a load of extra retreat points during foot and mouth.