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In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Flip and frick thats good news... the best nut in the world returns!
In reply to Wilbur: Because you'll soon realise that most cracks are slightly flaring, not straight-sided and therefore they are best nuts ever made. I've had that on my profile for the last 5 years or something, Paz and Mike are just johnny-come-latelies to the cult of the HB offset!
In reply to TobyA:
I have a three alloys and a double set of brass ones damn you!
Just because you're a bit older, and I only had them on my profile only three years ago (not long after the Andy K article I admit) now I'm a "Johnny come lately" all of a sudden!
Nothing personal Toby, I just feel that's what important here is establishing that I love HB alloy offsets the most.
I have a three alloys and a double set of brass ones damn you!
Just because you're a bit older, and I only had them on my profile only three years ago (not long after the Andy K article I admit) now I'm a "Johnny come lately" all of a sudden!
Nothing personal Toby, I just feel that's what important here is establishing that I love HB alloy offsets the most.
In reply to Paz: My favourite one I think I bought in 1991. Can you beat that?
I see you've been out today? Was it sunny in Bris'l? +1 here and everything dripping and really misty - got thoroughly soggy, but ice was brilliant. First time placements, water ice that feels like neve. Only placed screws though, no offsets!
I see you've been out today? Was it sunny in Bris'l? +1 here and everything dripping and really misty - got thoroughly soggy, but ice was brilliant. First time placements, water ice that feels like neve. Only placed screws though, no offsets!
In reply to TobyA:
Sweet.
I was 11 then, and had probably only been climbing on a wooden tower (now rotting and condemnded) at Hesley Wood Scout camp. I saw The Queen there once.
Judging by the normal amount of time it took things to make it from HB's factory to a shop, they could've been manufactured in 1991 though.
It was well sunny yes, really good, after the morning rain cleared. Windy though. Most of the seeage even dried up from last night. Bit weird in the afternon being hit by mild rain whilst only being able to see blue sky.
Anyway people, if you want to see what the HB Offset fuss is all about, be warned that like unicycles, asparagus, and real ale, they take some getting used to, (though they aren't anywhere near as bad as Peanuts). But when you are used to them, they're blinking great. They basically go in all those `this should be good but nothing will fit' wire slots that normal rocks seem to sit in yet not touch the sides. And they have placky bits on them so you can sling them too when low on krabs.
I hope DMM will still be putting the plastic bits on the clip loop.
Sweet.
I was 11 then, and had probably only been climbing on a wooden tower (now rotting and condemnded) at Hesley Wood Scout camp. I saw The Queen there once.
Judging by the normal amount of time it took things to make it from HB's factory to a shop, they could've been manufactured in 1991 though.
It was well sunny yes, really good, after the morning rain cleared. Windy though. Most of the seeage even dried up from last night. Bit weird in the afternon being hit by mild rain whilst only being able to see blue sky.
Anyway people, if you want to see what the HB Offset fuss is all about, be warned that like unicycles, asparagus, and real ale, they take some getting used to, (though they aren't anywhere near as bad as Peanuts). But when you are used to them, they're blinking great. They basically go in all those `this should be good but nothing will fit' wire slots that normal rocks seem to sit in yet not touch the sides. And they have placky bits on them so you can sling them too when low on krabs.
I hope DMM will still be putting the plastic bits on the clip loop.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Well I bought my first HB brass offset back in the 80's - pretty well as soon as they became available. I also have a few brass HB microrocks and rock anchors.
As to "they have a plastic sleeve so you can sling them when low on Krabs"....oh dear....
Just because the MUCH THICKER wire on U frame Cams has a plastic sleeve which can be safely slung with a sling, I don't think that necessarily means you can get away with this even with the thinner wire on full strength nuts. And don't even think about it with micros.
Well I bought my first HB brass offset back in the 80's - pretty well as soon as they became available. I also have a few brass HB microrocks and rock anchors.
As to "they have a plastic sleeve so you can sling them when low on Krabs"....oh dear....
Just because the MUCH THICKER wire on U frame Cams has a plastic sleeve which can be safely slung with a sling, I don't think that necessarily means you can get away with this even with the thinner wire on full strength nuts. And don't even think about it with micros.
In reply to Paz: Fantasic news!!! I've borrowed offsets from mates in the past and think they're fantastic but never got round to buying my own as the local shops only had a few odd sizes of bras ones and nothing like a full set. I'll be getting a set of these when they come out though!
As to "they have placky bits on them so you can sling them too when low on krabs". I wouldn't try and larks foot a sling onto any nut, whether it's plastic coated or not as the angles will be far too tight.
As to "they have placky bits on them so you can sling them too when low on krabs". I wouldn't try and larks foot a sling onto any nut, whether it's plastic coated or not as the angles will be far too tight.
In reply to Paz: "And they have placky bits on them so you can sling them too when low on krabs" I see no krab saving - you still need to use one on the end of the sling to run the rope through.
In reply to TobyA:
Which although a slightly overambitious generalisation, is also the reason that DMM Wallnuts are objectively better than Wild Country Rocks, regardless of personal opinion, because of their tapered profile that fits flared cracks.
Never got HB alloy offsets myself, but have their brass offsets which are very nice for frightening micro-protection situations .
> Because you'll soon realise that most cracks are slightly flaring, not straight-sided
Which although a slightly overambitious generalisation, is also the reason that DMM Wallnuts are objectively better than Wild Country Rocks, regardless of personal opinion, because of their tapered profile that fits flared cracks.
Never got HB alloy offsets myself, but have their brass offsets which are very nice for frightening micro-protection situations .
In reply to JimmAwelon:
you don't have to larks foot the sling to the nut you can simple thread it though the hole doubled up and it saves on one biner in this case!
you don't have to larks foot the sling to the nut you can simple thread it though the hole doubled up and it saves on one biner in this case!
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Sounds well dodgy, larksfoot or not, and plastic on the wire or not. Have you seen any tests anywhere that say this is safe? If so, please provide details.
Paul
Sounds well dodgy, larksfoot or not, and plastic on the wire or not. Have you seen any tests anywhere that say this is safe? If so, please provide details.
Paul
In reply to Paul Evans:
Thankyou yes, you don't have to larks foot if that contradicts your religion. Please tell me what tips it gives its followers on avoiding rope drag using what you've got? Persoanlly I think larks footing is OK, except on sundays.
How exactly do you imagine this setup would fail? The sling or the nut has to snap, and I can't imagine that a tight angle is going to increase the force on the sling significantly.
It seems safe enough for me. The plastic bits give you that option - with sling on metal you're more worried about abrasion, so I don't do that. But I would if I had to. Even if it's not 100% safe, there are certain situations where I'd sooner not run out of quickdrawers/krabs than I would pander to paranoid demands, nay delusions (yours or mine) to see peer reviewed test statistics carried out in a controlled environment. I normally have more important things to worry about on routes.
Thankyou yes, you don't have to larks foot if that contradicts your religion. Please tell me what tips it gives its followers on avoiding rope drag using what you've got? Persoanlly I think larks footing is OK, except on sundays.
How exactly do you imagine this setup would fail? The sling or the nut has to snap, and I can't imagine that a tight angle is going to increase the force on the sling significantly.
It seems safe enough for me. The plastic bits give you that option - with sling on metal you're more worried about abrasion, so I don't do that. But I would if I had to. Even if it's not 100% safe, there are certain situations where I'd sooner not run out of quickdrawers/krabs than I would pander to paranoid demands, nay delusions (yours or mine) to see peer reviewed test statistics carried out in a controlled environment. I normally have more important things to worry about on routes.
In reply to Paul Evans:
personally I always seem to have a spare biner somewhere so I wouldn't do it in this case. But if it meant running a biner over a sharp edge I'd consider it.
personally I always seem to have a spare biner somewhere so I wouldn't do it in this case. But if it meant running a biner over a sharp edge I'd consider it.
In reply to kevin stephens:
The old alloy sizes're a lot bigger.
You can still mail order non CE brass off sets from a US website called yosemite something.
I'm sorry if this troubles you, indeed when you're running it out on (or running out of) RPs on Cystitis by Proxy, that's what everyone thinks about isn't it, "is my gear CE accredited?"
The old alloy sizes're a lot bigger.
You can still mail order non CE brass off sets from a US website called yosemite something.
I'm sorry if this troubles you, indeed when you're running it out on (or running out of) RPs on Cystitis by Proxy, that's what everyone thinks about isn't it, "is my gear CE accredited?"
In reply to Paz:
Firstly, it's generally accepted that larksfooting weakens slings by at least 30% compared to other methods. If you don't believe me perhaps you'd believe BD or Mammut? Only way larksfooting helps with rope drag is if you have too few krabs and too short slings.
OK how would it fail? The wire will slice the sling in a major fall. Krab manaufacturers put a great deal of effort into giving the rope and gear bearing bits of krabs nice wide gentle surfaces - 10-12mm is typical. I've just measured the cable on rocks and it's 3.2mm. Any bit of plastic sleeve round will deform instantly under a major fall and your sling is going to get sliced.
Thanks for the religious & parnoia quips, always nice to get a bit of adult debate going.
Paul
Firstly, it's generally accepted that larksfooting weakens slings by at least 30% compared to other methods. If you don't believe me perhaps you'd believe BD or Mammut? Only way larksfooting helps with rope drag is if you have too few krabs and too short slings.
OK how would it fail? The wire will slice the sling in a major fall. Krab manaufacturers put a great deal of effort into giving the rope and gear bearing bits of krabs nice wide gentle surfaces - 10-12mm is typical. I've just measured the cable on rocks and it's 3.2mm. Any bit of plastic sleeve round will deform instantly under a major fall and your sling is going to get sliced.
Thanks for the religious & parnoia quips, always nice to get a bit of adult debate going.
Paul
In reply to Paul Evans:
The childishness wasn't aimed at you personally.
Either running ut of gear, or making the most of (e.g.- clipping as many pieces as possible using ) what you do have with you is what I'm talking about. Placing gear in one place for one single major fall off a runout crux is a different situation.
I just don't believe the slicing things when there's no edge, especially on modern skinny slings.
I make 70% of 22kN to be 15.4kN. That's plenty enough to hold my ass, (or even a small pony).
The childishness wasn't aimed at you personally.
Either running ut of gear, or making the most of (e.g.- clipping as many pieces as possible using ) what you do have with you is what I'm talking about. Placing gear in one place for one single major fall off a runout crux is a different situation.
I just don't believe the slicing things when there's no edge, especially on modern skinny slings.
I make 70% of 22kN to be 15.4kN. That's plenty enough to hold my ass, (or even a small pony).
In reply to Paul Evans:
I suggest you let Wild Country (and CCH) know that looping slings to plastic coated wire is dangerous! http://www.rockrun.com/shop/prod.html?d=2&t=7&p=1910&sid=f01c86...
Cheers,
George.
I suggest you let Wild Country (and CCH) know that looping slings to plastic coated wire is dangerous! http://www.rockrun.com/shop/prod.html?d=2&t=7&p=1910&sid=f01c86...
Cheers,
George.
In reply to Mr Pink 2:
Nice one, I'd forgtoten about those. Shame the sizes with small wires're only rated body weight, though having used mine I really doubt the sling on a Zero's the weakest link.
Nice one, I'd forgtoten about those. Shame the sizes with small wires're only rated body weight, though having used mine I really doubt the sling on a Zero's the weakest link.
In reply to Paz:
What a strange response to a simple question!
I didn't mention CE and am certainly not troubled. I havn't done Cystitis but have been "running it out" and occasionaly falling off on RPs, HBs BD micro nuts etc for 3 decades
The BD Swedges, or micro stoppers as they are now called start from 3.7mm. I find the trapezoid taper to be less greedy than the old HB offsets, and hence more secure in flared plecements, eg peg scars
What a strange response to a simple question!
I didn't mention CE and am certainly not troubled. I havn't done Cystitis but have been "running it out" and occasionaly falling off on RPs, HBs BD micro nuts etc for 3 decades
The BD Swedges, or micro stoppers as they are now called start from 3.7mm. I find the trapezoid taper to be less greedy than the old HB offsets, and hence more secure in flared plecements, eg peg scars
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
http://www.yosemitegifts.com/hboffsets.html
You can get HB brass offset nuts from here.
Cheers
Tim
http://www.yosemitegifts.com/hboffsets.html
You can get HB brass offset nuts from here.
Cheers
Tim
In reply to kevin stephens:
Sorry, only the `they're bigger bit' was aimed at you. I'm sure you've come across the Safety First brigade who never breach regulations and fill in risk assessment forms for every part of their life.
Why ever did BD call them Micro stoppers - they've done a Snickers/Marathon Star burst/Opal Fruits on us.
I agree that BD Swedges are better than Micro wires (also because of their narrower profile and thinner wire - and mainly because they're still in the UK shops so you can yank on them as hard as you like).
It's just a shame AFAIK that BD don't make Swedges in bigger sizes like the HB alloys are bigger silver coloured versions of HB brasses.
Sorry, only the `they're bigger bit' was aimed at you. I'm sure you've come across the Safety First brigade who never breach regulations and fill in risk assessment forms for every part of their life.
Why ever did BD call them Micro stoppers - they've done a Snickers/Marathon Star burst/Opal Fruits on us.
I agree that BD Swedges are better than Micro wires (also because of their narrower profile and thinner wire - and mainly because they're still in the UK shops so you can yank on them as hard as you like).
It's just a shame AFAIK that BD don't make Swedges in bigger sizes like the HB alloys are bigger silver coloured versions of HB brasses.
In reply to Paz:
the super light rocks are very similar to larger swedges. They are paritcularly unique in the side ways placements they will fill that nothing else will fit.
the super light rocks are very similar to larger swedges. They are paritcularly unique in the side ways placements they will fill that nothing else will fit.
MIck: you posted a pic of an HB Offset Bronze micronut. Is it not the case that the larger Aluminum HB's are what DMM is discussing mfg again?
Regards:
Bill
Regards:
Bill
In reply to mike kann:
I wouldn't say that. I used to have 5 of them. I only have two now owing to them getting stuck in cracks. Given that they were pretty expensive I would say they weren't worth it. I certainly haven't missed em.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Flip and frick thats good news... the best nut in the world returns!
I wouldn't say that. I used to have 5 of them. I only have two now owing to them getting stuck in cracks. Given that they were pretty expensive I would say they weren't worth it. I certainly haven't missed em.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Ohhh I hope this is true this time. I can finally replace my Yellow Alloy offset that I left in the belay at the top of Messach (sp) some years ago.
Go on... own up, which of you lucky gets found it Enjoy!
jk
Ohhh I hope this is true this time. I can finally replace my Yellow Alloy offset that I left in the belay at the top of Messach (sp) some years ago.
Go on... own up, which of you lucky gets found it Enjoy!
jk
In reply to Jon Dittman:
I think you've just been unlucky. One of my alloy offsets is one of the oldest nuts I have, and has probably been place more times than any other I have.
In fact considering they fit best in flaring cracks, if you use them in the right place, physics suggests they should be easier to get out than all the other types.
> I wouldn't say that. I used to have 5 of them. I only have two now owing to them getting stuck in cracks.
I think you've just been unlucky. One of my alloy offsets is one of the oldest nuts I have, and has probably been place more times than any other I have.
In fact considering they fit best in flaring cracks, if you use them in the right place, physics suggests they should be easier to get out than all the other types.
In reply to Paul Evans:
I was emailed by Paul Evans because he was looking for technical data on how larks-footing slings directly to wire affected their strength.
I have always regarded this as a big taboo, but was not aware of any technical reports. I spoke to Fred Hall, our Technical Director, and he also cited the practice as being dangerous because of the small diameters and tight angles involved. However, he was also not aware of any formal technical reports on this topic.
Thus we then proceeded to tensile test a variety of different sized nuts that had been larks-footed to a variety of different webbings.
I should stress that the results here are not conducted in a scientific or controlled environment; they are just snapshots to give one a general idea of how this practice may reduce the strength of the system.
The results were all obtained using new product, thus the results are likely to be at the top end of those than could be expected. This is because nicks, cuts and abrasion damage on the nut/tape would be likely to reduce the strength of the system.
The drop tower was in use and therefore we had to use the main tensile tester. This means the force will have been applied relatively slowly to the tape/nut system; thus again the results shown are probably higher than would be achieved in a real life scenario.
The worst scenario occurred when using skinny slings on small nuts with thin wire. Thus a small size nut (wire of diameter 2.3mm(BD Stopper 5) to 2.5mm(Wallnut 1)) attached to an 8mm Dyneema sling via a larks-foot broke at 5.5 to 6.2Kn.
When attached to large nut with thicker wire (3.2mm on a Wallnuts 5 -11) the 8mm Dyneema tapes broke at 7.5 to 8.0Kn.
The results for 10mm Dyneema webbing were from 6.8 to 8.6KN
The results for 11mm and 12mm Dyneema webbing were from 9.3 to 10.9kn.
Severe tear and rupture damage occurred on all slings prior to failure, Thus it is likely that, even should the sling hold the fall, the sling would have to be replaced.
As a reference it is fairly easy to generate 7kn in a fall and hard falls can generate 8kn-9kn. Again I would suggest that these figures are the top end of what you could hope to see the system cope with because all the kit was new.
Thus I would seriously discourage any climber from larks-footing any Dyneema sling directly to a wire nut.
It is worth pointing out that the DMM 3 and 4CU units use 3.5mm wire that is then covered with a stiff 2,5mm PVC tube. These units are slung on 11mm or 12mm Dyneema. These achieve a safe 3 Sigma 12KN (extended) and 14kn (doubled) strength. We could put this wire/plastic combo on the nuts , but the weight penalty would be huge.
Regards
Simon Marsh
DMM
I was emailed by Paul Evans because he was looking for technical data on how larks-footing slings directly to wire affected their strength.
I have always regarded this as a big taboo, but was not aware of any technical reports. I spoke to Fred Hall, our Technical Director, and he also cited the practice as being dangerous because of the small diameters and tight angles involved. However, he was also not aware of any formal technical reports on this topic.
Thus we then proceeded to tensile test a variety of different sized nuts that had been larks-footed to a variety of different webbings.
I should stress that the results here are not conducted in a scientific or controlled environment; they are just snapshots to give one a general idea of how this practice may reduce the strength of the system.
The results were all obtained using new product, thus the results are likely to be at the top end of those than could be expected. This is because nicks, cuts and abrasion damage on the nut/tape would be likely to reduce the strength of the system.
The drop tower was in use and therefore we had to use the main tensile tester. This means the force will have been applied relatively slowly to the tape/nut system; thus again the results shown are probably higher than would be achieved in a real life scenario.
The worst scenario occurred when using skinny slings on small nuts with thin wire. Thus a small size nut (wire of diameter 2.3mm(BD Stopper 5) to 2.5mm(Wallnut 1)) attached to an 8mm Dyneema sling via a larks-foot broke at 5.5 to 6.2Kn.
When attached to large nut with thicker wire (3.2mm on a Wallnuts 5 -11) the 8mm Dyneema tapes broke at 7.5 to 8.0Kn.
The results for 10mm Dyneema webbing were from 6.8 to 8.6KN
The results for 11mm and 12mm Dyneema webbing were from 9.3 to 10.9kn.
Severe tear and rupture damage occurred on all slings prior to failure, Thus it is likely that, even should the sling hold the fall, the sling would have to be replaced.
As a reference it is fairly easy to generate 7kn in a fall and hard falls can generate 8kn-9kn. Again I would suggest that these figures are the top end of what you could hope to see the system cope with because all the kit was new.
Thus I would seriously discourage any climber from larks-footing any Dyneema sling directly to a wire nut.
It is worth pointing out that the DMM 3 and 4CU units use 3.5mm wire that is then covered with a stiff 2,5mm PVC tube. These units are slung on 11mm or 12mm Dyneema. These achieve a safe 3 Sigma 12KN (extended) and 14kn (doubled) strength. We could put this wire/plastic combo on the nuts , but the weight penalty would be huge.
Regards
Simon Marsh
DMM
In reply to Simon Marsh: Simon - that is one of your best ever posts. I know they are not extensive tests but they prove the point pretty effectively - Thanks for clearing it up. I was pretty convinced that the results would be poor and conidering you are now selling your phantoms, I can't see the point of taking the risk or removing a carabiner for the sake of saving weight!
In reply to Simon Marsh: Infact - I know its a bit cheeky but could you do the same test with pegs? I know lots of people who seem to think this is ok too and would love to have some proof that its not!... if not then thanks for the tests you have already done!
In reply to mike kann: also can you do a test of just threading an 8mm through the pegs and then cliping it together. like you would putting a 120cm sling round a tree? i would be interested to knoe it that is safe?
In reply to Simon Marsh:
Simon
When I asked for guidance I wasn't expecting this!
Many thanks for such a comprehensive reply.
Cheers
Paul
Simon
When I asked for guidance I wasn't expecting this!
Many thanks for such a comprehensive reply.
Cheers
Paul
In reply to Simon Marsh:
That's really impressive work, thanks a lot. However, I wasn't (as I don't think anyone else was) suggesting larks footing slings directly to wire loops. Only when the wire loops are coated with a plastic tube at the end of the clip in loop as per the old offsets, which probably isn't as stiff and heavy as what you use on your cams.
Also, the sling failed at around 6.2 kN. I understand these are 3 sigma ratings but you only rate Wallnut ones to 7kN max (why do you also list 4kN on your website - is this for a sideways placement?). BD Stopper and Micro Stopper 5s are also only rated to 6kN in any case. The reduction's a lot more for the larger sized Wallnuts which are rated 12kN. It's interesting the dyneema slings failed by rupturing and tearing isntead of melting, though nothing's sliding.
Thanks a lot again anyway, I'd be interested in the peg suggestion too, as well as strength comparisons between larks footed and double slung slings on bare and plastic-coated wire.
That's really impressive work, thanks a lot. However, I wasn't (as I don't think anyone else was) suggesting larks footing slings directly to wire loops. Only when the wire loops are coated with a plastic tube at the end of the clip in loop as per the old offsets, which probably isn't as stiff and heavy as what you use on your cams.
Also, the sling failed at around 6.2 kN. I understand these are 3 sigma ratings but you only rate Wallnut ones to 7kN max (why do you also list 4kN on your website - is this for a sideways placement?). BD Stopper and Micro Stopper 5s are also only rated to 6kN in any case. The reduction's a lot more for the larger sized Wallnuts which are rated 12kN. It's interesting the dyneema slings failed by rupturing and tearing isntead of melting, though nothing's sliding.
Thanks a lot again anyway, I'd be interested in the peg suggestion too, as well as strength comparisons between larks footed and double slung slings on bare and plastic-coated wire.
In reply to mike kann: I guess not then go aaan go aaaan go aaaan you know you want to... means you get to watch bits of gear being ripped apart and skive work for the whole day while you do it! What could be more fun - being paid to destroy things!
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