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Hello, sorry if this sounds a little macho or self absorbed...but...I had an interesting discussion with a person at work today who is a self confessed gym (as in treadmills, weights etc.) addict. He has a very similar build to me and i've never been to a proper gym in my life just climbed, cycled and so on. He ended up arguing that gym excersizes produce more fibrous tissue than general hobbies and therefore he was superior in strength to me... i argued against of course...but i genuinely believe a sport as intensive and hollistic as climbing will infact produce a stronger person... anybody agree or disagree?
In reply to fiveknuckle: It's impossible that gyms would produce 'better' muscles as you're doin the same things, really. Gyms are pretty useless for climbing though, as you just put on bulk where you dont need it. Climbing is perfect for strength as you get natural, Healthy muscle bulk.
In reply to fiveknuckle:
I am not entirely sure, but I have been told that climbing increases muscle recruitment and not really bulk, whereas gym just build bulk unless u train specifically for recruitment. Hence, your muscles will probably be more effective per cubic volume.
With this in mind, considering you are a similar build to this guy, you should be stronger.
Could be wrong tho.
I am not entirely sure, but I have been told that climbing increases muscle recruitment and not really bulk, whereas gym just build bulk unless u train specifically for recruitment. Hence, your muscles will probably be more effective per cubic volume.
With this in mind, considering you are a similar build to this guy, you should be stronger.
Could be wrong tho.
In reply to fiveknuckle:
This bloke's talking a load of rubbish... If anything, as mentioned above, the gym tends to produce less lean muscle than sports such as climbing. On the other hand, climbing mainly improves strength rather than arm strength...
Overall, I don't think you can make any generalisations for either case, since this would completely ignore so many important factors - genetics, other activities, training programs, age, etc... The list is pretty endless.
J
This bloke's talking a load of rubbish... If anything, as mentioned above, the gym tends to produce less lean muscle than sports such as climbing. On the other hand, climbing mainly improves strength rather than arm strength...
Overall, I don't think you can make any generalisations for either case, since this would completely ignore so many important factors - genetics, other activities, training programs, age, etc... The list is pretty endless.
J
In reply to fiveknuckle: about 20% of strength is in the mind. So if you focus real hard you will be strongest.
In reply to fiveknuckle: I think he's full of crap...he probably hasn't even climbed before and he is just being biased.
Tell him to demonstrate to you how to do a 1 arm lock-off and when he fails then merely show him how it's done!
Tell him to demonstrate to you how to do a 1 arm lock-off and when he fails then merely show him how it's done!
In reply to fiveknuckle: Why not settle the dispute with a fight? Or perhaps, given that this is someone you've gotta work with, an arm-wrestle?
In reply to fiveknuckle: Another thought - you do realise that you're not very likely to get objective views by asking a bunch of climbers which is better, the gym or climbing, don't you?
In reply to fiveknuckle:
one thing that occurs to me, which might be bunkum, is that I guess the gym might be better for CV fitness than climbing, unless you're doing big walk-ins etc, and good CV fitness can aid movement of blood round the body, recovery rates etc, so might help with strength...?
but other than that - <looks blank>
one thing that occurs to me, which might be bunkum, is that I guess the gym might be better for CV fitness than climbing, unless you're doing big walk-ins etc, and good CV fitness can aid movement of blood round the body, recovery rates etc, so might help with strength...?
but other than that - <looks blank>
In reply to fiveknuckle:
Climbing produces strong climbers. with gyms it depends on what you do obviously. Those olympic parallel bars/rings people look pretty strong to me!
Climbing produces strong climbers. with gyms it depends on what you do obviously. Those olympic parallel bars/rings people look pretty strong to me!
In reply to CJD:
I was under the impression that lots of stamina or strength-endurance work reduced max power (reducing recruitment or something similar)..
I was under the impression that lots of stamina or strength-endurance work reduced max power (reducing recruitment or something similar)..
In reply to fiveknuckle:
give him an arm wrestle, if he has just been working machines as opposed to free weights he is likely to have failed to work the stabilising muscles and just concentrated on the big obvious ones; therefore he is likely to be rubbish at arm wrestling.
give him an arm wrestle, if he has just been working machines as opposed to free weights he is likely to have failed to work the stabilising muscles and just concentrated on the big obvious ones; therefore he is likely to be rubbish at arm wrestling.
In reply to abarro81:
ah - as I say, my thoughts could well have been bunkum. There's gotta be some logic in ensuring that your heart, as the most important muscle in the body, is in good shape, though?
ah - as I say, my thoughts could well have been bunkum. There's gotta be some logic in ensuring that your heart, as the most important muscle in the body, is in good shape, though?
In reply to fiveknuckle: Who cares? Surely what matters is what you want the strength for? Ive seen guys like Arnie at the wall not make it to the first clip.
In reply to Franco cookson:
I'm sorry Franco, but you are not talking from experience are you? Gym training will produce what you are looking for and train for, you can train in any way you like and produce a general or specific fitness/strength. To say gyms don't produce strength and only bulk is a rediculous inexperienced view of how to work/use a gym, if you've been to a gym within the last 10 year you will notice it consists of more than a running machine and a few weights.
Although gym work will not make him a better climber, if you went out on the crag to train and he went to the gym to train for the same length of time, I would expect the gym guy would have gained a more consentrated power, strength or muscle/bulk, whatever the aim.
> (In reply to fiveknuckle) It's impossible that gyms would produce 'better' muscles as you're doin the same things, really. Gyms are pretty useless for climbing though, as you just put on bulk where you dont need it. Climbing is perfect for strength as you get natural, Healthy muscle bulk.
I'm sorry Franco, but you are not talking from experience are you? Gym training will produce what you are looking for and train for, you can train in any way you like and produce a general or specific fitness/strength. To say gyms don't produce strength and only bulk is a rediculous inexperienced view of how to work/use a gym, if you've been to a gym within the last 10 year you will notice it consists of more than a running machine and a few weights.
Although gym work will not make him a better climber, if you went out on the crag to train and he went to the gym to train for the same length of time, I would expect the gym guy would have gained a more consentrated power, strength or muscle/bulk, whatever the aim.
In reply to CJD: Im sure it helps to have good CV fitness. I cycle 130+ miles a week but my climbing stamina is rubbish. Its too specific to substitute and compare with any other sport.
In reply to Muhammad-the-randy-teddy:
I was about to reply to Franco Cookson but you have taken the words out of my mouth.
A climbing example of the effectiveness of gym training is Malcolm Smith. He has written that he more focussed on the training than the climbing, but he got a bit good at climbing.
I used a gym for a period years ago when I specifically wanted to increase my strength. It worked, without increasing my bulk at all, and did contribute to my climbing ability.
I was about to reply to Franco Cookson but you have taken the words out of my mouth.
A climbing example of the effectiveness of gym training is Malcolm Smith. He has written that he more focussed on the training than the climbing, but he got a bit good at climbing.
I used a gym for a period years ago when I specifically wanted to increase my strength. It worked, without increasing my bulk at all, and did contribute to my climbing ability.
In reply to fiveknuckle: You have to ask yourself what you want to be fit enough, or strong enough for? If this guy wants to be able to cycle fast in a gym and lift big weights in the gym then that is the training he needs to do to be good at it.
Likewise if you want to climb F7a then you need to get out there and climb F7a's, but it makes you no less of an athlete which you choose to do!
I would just be happy that my chosen past time takes me to places in Britain that other people will never even know exist, and i will see sights that only other climbers will see! much better than the reflection of a sweaty bloke staring in a mirror!
Likewise if you want to climb F7a then you need to get out there and climb F7a's, but it makes you no less of an athlete which you choose to do!
I would just be happy that my chosen past time takes me to places in Britain that other people will never even know exist, and i will see sights that only other climbers will see! much better than the reflection of a sweaty bloke staring in a mirror!
In reply to Muhammad-the-randy-teddy: obviously you have more experience. but would you not agree that you'd get a better alround fitness/ strength and more evenly placed muscle from climbing rather than a gym?
In reply to Franco cookson:
Climbing will be better for your climbing. All round fitness can be better addressed at the gym, if that's what you really want.
Personally I would rather be a crap climber but be outside in the fresh air.
Climbing will be better for your climbing. All round fitness can be better addressed at the gym, if that's what you really want.
Personally I would rather be a crap climber but be outside in the fresh air.
In reply to Franco cookson:
you can tailor training in the gym though to whether you want to build bulk, stregnth, endurance or to burn fat.
it's a great supplement to climbing imho.
low reps 1-5 just strength no muscle bulk gain
med 5-15 strength + muscle bulk gain
high 15-50 strength + muscle bulk gain + endurance
v high >50 strength + endurance + some fat burn
horses for courses natch.
you can tailor training in the gym though to whether you want to build bulk, stregnth, endurance or to burn fat.
it's a great supplement to climbing imho.
low reps 1-5 just strength no muscle bulk gain
med 5-15 strength + muscle bulk gain
high 15-50 strength + muscle bulk gain + endurance
v high >50 strength + endurance + some fat burn
horses for courses natch.
In reply to skivingbluecat:
I disagree. I think CV work definitely helps climbing stamina. No proper research to back this up, just anecdotal evidence from better running fitness and climbing fitness being linked for me and other friends.. Obviously it's not as important as actually climbing though.
CJD: in terms of max power I would have thought the heart would be fairly irrelevant as I'd have thought it would be purely anaerobic work.
I disagree. I think CV work definitely helps climbing stamina. No proper research to back this up, just anecdotal evidence from better running fitness and climbing fitness being linked for me and other friends.. Obviously it's not as important as actually climbing though.
CJD: in terms of max power I would have thought the heart would be fairly irrelevant as I'd have thought it would be purely anaerobic work.
In reply to abarro81:
good point in terms of max power, but in terms of generally aiding recovery etc then I guess it's handy.
good point in terms of max power, but in terms of generally aiding recovery etc then I guess it's handy.
In reply to Franco cookson:
No I don't, not at all. Quite the oposite.
> (In reply to Muhammad-the-randy-teddy) obviously you have more experience. but would you not agree that you'd get a better alround fitness/ strength and more evenly placed muscle from climbing rather than a gym?
No I don't, not at all. Quite the oposite.
In reply to fiveknuckle:
A few years ago, a martial arts teacher told me that if I wanted to build proper strength then ignore weights and start climbing or doing gymnastics...
From a more scientific basis, if your friend is using those machines, then they focus on very specific muscles which means the supporting muscles are weak, unlike with free weights or indeed climbing, which builds the supporting muscles for proper strength, rather than pretty boy physique.
A few years ago, a martial arts teacher told me that if I wanted to build proper strength then ignore weights and start climbing or doing gymnastics...
From a more scientific basis, if your friend is using those machines, then they focus on very specific muscles which means the supporting muscles are weak, unlike with free weights or indeed climbing, which builds the supporting muscles for proper strength, rather than pretty boy physique.
In reply to fiveknuckle:
It depends how you qualify stronger = Lifting, pushing or pulling? There is a big difference as you get stronger you also train technique. He may be able to press more than you but you may be able to do more pull up etc.
It depends how you qualify stronger = Lifting, pushing or pulling? There is a big difference as you get stronger you also train technique. He may be able to press more than you but you may be able to do more pull up etc.
In reply to fiveknuckle:
The climbing wall was closed today so I had to use the gym instead. My god how excruciatingly boring! I almost died from lack of adrenaline. How do they cope?
The climbing wall was closed today so I had to use the gym instead. My god how excruciatingly boring! I almost died from lack of adrenaline. How do they cope?
In reply to fiveknuckle:
You'll be "stronger" at what you train for. You would probably be a better climber but not as good at presses, curls etc so you're both right, you just have different definitions of strength.
You'll be "stronger" at what you train for. You would probably be a better climber but not as good at presses, curls etc so you're both right, you just have different definitions of strength.
In reply to AlisonS:
lol.
easy. Just switch off, plug into an iPod and get on with it. I make sure I wear a climbing T-shirt so everyone knows I'm a Climber and am thus of superior stuff to everyone else in there <cough>
lol.
easy. Just switch off, plug into an iPod and get on with it. I make sure I wear a climbing T-shirt so everyone knows I'm a Climber and am thus of superior stuff to everyone else in there <cough>
In reply to AlisonS:
You've hit the nail on the head re gyms! I hate them. But I could say the same about indoor walls compared with trad climbing
You've hit the nail on the head re gyms! I hate them. But I could say the same about indoor walls compared with trad climbing
In reply to Trangia:
exactly. They're all just means to ends. Either use them or don't use them - having a crisis about it is a little pointless.
exactly. They're all just means to ends. Either use them or don't use them - having a crisis about it is a little pointless.
In reply to fiveknuckle:
Bent over rows, bicep curls, tricep press downs etc are all incredibly useful to train for climbing.
It's also very good for working the antagonist muscles that we often fail to work.
You will get stronger quicker at the gym than through climibng. If you go to the crag once a week and climb up to severe this will not increase your strength as much as one session a week at the gym. I very rarely come back from Trad climbing feeling like i used to after a gym session.
If you want to look like arnie you can do that at the gym if you want to train absolute strength with very little bulk gain you can do that, you can work endurance too.
Obviously if you want your climbing to improve you need to climb and get some mileage in as well but climbing and the gym can be very beneficial to getting better.
Bent over rows, bicep curls, tricep press downs etc are all incredibly useful to train for climbing.
It's also very good for working the antagonist muscles that we often fail to work.
You will get stronger quicker at the gym than through climibng. If you go to the crag once a week and climb up to severe this will not increase your strength as much as one session a week at the gym. I very rarely come back from Trad climbing feeling like i used to after a gym session.
If you want to look like arnie you can do that at the gym if you want to train absolute strength with very little bulk gain you can do that, you can work endurance too.
Obviously if you want your climbing to improve you need to climb and get some mileage in as well but climbing and the gym can be very beneficial to getting better.
In reply to AlisonS:
Dead on
> (In reply to fiveknuckle)
>
> The climbing wall was closed today so I had to use the gym instead. My god how excruciatingly boring! I almost died from lack of adrenaline. How do they cope?
>
> The climbing wall was closed today so I had to use the gym instead. My god how excruciatingly boring! I almost died from lack of adrenaline. How do they cope?
Dead on
In reply to fiveknuckle:
Your friend and you seem to be missing the point in so many ways that it is hard to know where to begin. There are a lot of types of strength. A definition of strength would be a good place to start.
Strength in bodybuilding terms would focus on absolute strength whereas in climbing terms a better measure would be relative to bodyweight.
Also what type of climbing ? bouldering and alpine would focus on diffrent types of stregth as more important.
Your friend and you seem to be missing the point in so many ways that it is hard to know where to begin. There are a lot of types of strength. A definition of strength would be a good place to start.
Strength in bodybuilding terms would focus on absolute strength whereas in climbing terms a better measure would be relative to bodyweight.
Also what type of climbing ? bouldering and alpine would focus on diffrent types of stregth as more important.
In reply to Muhammad-the-randy-teddy: fair enough.
In reply to fiveknuckle:
Your work mate sounds a little insecure. This does interest me though because I'm often suprised at how strong climbers are sometimes not that strong in general terms.
I used to work out in gyms a lot when I was younger and am still occasionally seen in one lamenting my physical demise.
Simon's right though, it depends what type of strength you're talking about. I used to train in a gym where there were quite a few guys bench pressing over 180kg. One guy managed over 240kg, which was well over twice his bodyweight. Can many climbers do that? I doubt it. The world record is over 450kg I think...check this bloke out
youtube.com/watch?v=BlDWdfTAx8o&
Not only pretty strong but a fashion guru
Strength training in a gym will generally make your muscles bigger and stronger than climbing. If you factor in strength to bodyweight ratios however the picture is less clear because training for powerlifiting will make you bulk up thus reducing your ratio. As we alll know the limiting factor in climbing is a very small muscle group (fingers and forearm muscles/tendons) which struggle to keep up with very high bodyweights.
Climbing strength is very specific and most pronounced in the fingers back, biceps, core and shoulders. In my experience, when comparing the strength benefits of climbing over weights, with some exercises related to those muscle groups (like deadhangs, campussing, pull ups, lock offs etc) climbers are often better than gym heads (relative to bodyweigtht), but that's about it. That powerlifter I mentioned before could do a massive five pull ups - pretty shameful.
Your work mate sounds a little insecure. This does interest me though because I'm often suprised at how strong climbers are sometimes not that strong in general terms.
I used to work out in gyms a lot when I was younger and am still occasionally seen in one lamenting my physical demise.
Simon's right though, it depends what type of strength you're talking about. I used to train in a gym where there were quite a few guys bench pressing over 180kg. One guy managed over 240kg, which was well over twice his bodyweight. Can many climbers do that? I doubt it. The world record is over 450kg I think...check this bloke out
youtube.com/watch?v=BlDWdfTAx8o&
Not only pretty strong but a fashion guru
Strength training in a gym will generally make your muscles bigger and stronger than climbing. If you factor in strength to bodyweight ratios however the picture is less clear because training for powerlifiting will make you bulk up thus reducing your ratio. As we alll know the limiting factor in climbing is a very small muscle group (fingers and forearm muscles/tendons) which struggle to keep up with very high bodyweights.
Climbing strength is very specific and most pronounced in the fingers back, biceps, core and shoulders. In my experience, when comparing the strength benefits of climbing over weights, with some exercises related to those muscle groups (like deadhangs, campussing, pull ups, lock offs etc) climbers are often better than gym heads (relative to bodyweigtht), but that's about it. That powerlifter I mentioned before could do a massive five pull ups - pretty shameful.
In reply to Jake Shaw:
Awesome. I managed to bench 100 kg free weight a couple of years ago- not bad as I weighed about 65 at the time. I was taking creatine which definitely helped. It did not improve my climbing at all.
Nowadays I couldn't bench anything like that, I do very little weight training. I have found a fingerboard to be much more beneficial, and am climbing a grade harder than when I was lifting big weights.
Awesome. I managed to bench 100 kg free weight a couple of years ago- not bad as I weighed about 65 at the time. I was taking creatine which definitely helped. It did not improve my climbing at all.
Nowadays I couldn't bench anything like that, I do very little weight training. I have found a fingerboard to be much more beneficial, and am climbing a grade harder than when I was lifting big weights.
In reply to fiveknuckle:
er, how about taking the lad out for a day in the hills and seeing how he copes with a long walk in carrying a pack, then some climbing, then the walk out...
then go to the gym for an hour with him the next day as a gesture of good will!
er, how about taking the lad out for a day in the hills and seeing how he copes with a long walk in carrying a pack, then some climbing, then the walk out...
then go to the gym for an hour with him the next day as a gesture of good will!
In reply to fiveknuckle:
one thing is for sure, as a climber you will have a better power to weight ratio
one thing is for sure, as a climber you will have a better power to weight ratio
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