UKC

Eighteen year old Dave Gill of Kendal started making films when he was 13 years old after he got his first video camera, a 'Sharp something-or-other'.

He has made several corporate, music and promo films and now he is turning his attention to climbing and last year established Steepmedia to do this.

This is a VIDEO of Dave's showing George Ullrich climbing The Master's Edge E7 6b/c at Millstone in the Peak District, near Sheffield, England.

Watch the VIDEO here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=842

Also includes an interview with Dave Gill.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Great video, Dave. Was this all shot on the day that I was there (you or a mate chucked a pad under me while I approached the top of Technical Master). I remember the "I thought it was an edge" bit but didnt see the full ascent.

Well done George!

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Can we give some constructive criticism to this young filmmaker?

Like it, hate it, how can it be improved - how and why.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
Would have preferred less/different music.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Good film. I don't have sound so can't comment on the audio stuff, but the pictures were good. I think it might have been better with less close-ups, but I don't know anything about film-making.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Filming was ok, but I think music could have been used to greater effect to produce more anticipatio/tension.

Nice capture of some sketchy climbing though!

In reply to Will Hunt:
I actually thought the music was good and worked well so long as he wasn't aiming for high drama..
Wasn't sure about the length of shots near the start: too quick to cut between angles. This improved later on though.
Good short overall though. Just a pity the punter didn't onsight it eh

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Good:
- - The climbing...and falls
- Seeing the belay set-up

Not so good:
- The fast-forward bit. During the psyche-up before going for it, I feel like life goes into slow-motion. This did the reverse.
- The music. I thought the lyrics were distracting (quite good from what I could hear, but not here, and not relevant to what was on-screen).
- The edit at 3'38"

In reply to abarro81:


Pity, hah, that's funny.

Only a select few punters have done it without top roping, as you know

'On Friday 26th October, Llanberis raiders James McHaffie and Pete Robins made an onsight assault on Master's Edge at Millstone '

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2007#n40839

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:
I thought that after 1:25 there was too much cutting between angles, after the first few cuts I'd have preferred it to focus mainly on the shot from above. The sequence placing the gear seemed to me not to flow because of the edits, I guess this was done to speed things along, but it just made it appear jumpy. The speeded up sequences of resting/chalking-up are one of my pet hates. I'd prefer a fade and return to the action as he sets off again, speeded up sequences come to close to being comedic when the situation the climber's in is actually quite serious. I think the close-up of the final throw should have come after the long shot of it, the climber moves partially out of shot in the close-up which detracted for me from the 'will he, won't he make it' aspect of the move. The music: I don't like rap or anything with a narrative (right word?) that's not relavent to what's happening on screen.
What I did like:
Choice of angles, I thought they were well framed and smooth. The prelude explaining the belay, showing the sketchy nature of the climbing and the previous failed attempts. The cutting up to about 1:20.
Over all despite the mostly minor niggles I had with it I thought it was good, and I accept that most of what I disliked probably comes down to personal preference.
It's a refreshing change from the locked-off camera-on-a-boulder video that we usually get.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Firs of all, as several have said the music was utter, utter shite. I couldn't tell whether the annoying jumps were because my computer was rubbish or because the editing was rubbish.

I can't think of anything constructive to say except that it seemed to be roughly in focus.

As far as I can see the trouble with filming onsights is that they take longer than rehearsed ascents and are less aesthetic. But cutting them is just irritating. Just film what's going on and resign yourself to longueurs, I would have thought was the only approach.

jcm

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Liked:

It wasn't all cut into smithereens - you could see the sequences unfold.

Disliked:

The music (ok in itself, but out of place).
The top and tail to the film.

Sigh. One day in another life....

J

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I've just watched it again and I'm pretty sure it does speed up deliberately at points, when he's chalking up around 2.40, for instance.

No. Just no.

jcm

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Great short.

It's easy to criticise from the warmth of the UKC Llanberis office - so I will!

Liked: Nice angle
Got all the moves in nicely
Steady camera
Liked the brief close ups of the holds
liked the quick changes of angle at the start

Improvements: George Foster's sound - could have been improved with a mic?
Cut the speeded up chalking up section
Show a wide angle showing the run out nature of the route
Build a bit of tension before the final 'slap'

Needed:A bit of background (I realise it's a short film)
Was he climbing ground-up?

Basically - really good short clip. Liked it. Thanks.

Jack

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yes, at least twice.

Not very involving, with mostly rather distant camera viewpoints (or close-ups of holds) - didn't see his face properly until the end; amounted to a goodish record of an onsight lead.

The music didn't work for me at all, and the lyrics were totally irrelevant.

Editing very choppy, with a poor sense of rhythm.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I don't think it was onsight.

I'm sure George will be along later to confirm the style of his ascent.

But whatever style, good effort.

Those speeded up sequences are quite popular at the moment.

I would have liked to see more of a close up of George inserting the amigos into the shotholes.

But overall, I enjoyed it.

Music choice and whether you like the music is personal. I prefer no music or some quieter stuff, whilst I like some rap, it's got to be damn good.

There again anything is better than hard-edged electronic, whatever genre.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: Always wondered, what are Amigos?

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

I assumed JCM had got his facts right, but you are probably right.

Yes, especially as it looked like he'd nearly lost it at one point about 3/4 of the way up.

Popular = flavour of the month. Most people, I think, find them a tedious gimmick - exactly why they are used so little in feature films.


There's a difference between vague enjoyment, and gripping involvement. I found it all rather distant (suffering from most of the faults of a climbing film I made when I was 19).

When I've been really concentrating on when climbing, it has never been a musical experience for me at all. One of the better rockclimbing films in this year's Shaff (won't divulge!) very effectively fades out the music for a very long crux sequence, and just relies on a few natural sounds.

Yup, simply because it is so unlike the very un-urban, semi-primeval experience of rockclimbing.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Here goes,

Music - Ace

The main filming angle, high and right of the climber, does not show enough of the exposure.

Didn't like the speeded up bits.

The gear - This is quite a historical point of note so I would have liked to have seen the placements made close up. maybe even in slo-mo.

I would have liked to have seen some longer distance footage of him climbing above the gear. this would probably mean him doing the route again?

Other than that it's always great to see footage of people on hard historical routes.

Well done.

The Ent

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I also wasn't a fan of the speede sequence.
I think the music thing depends on what you're aiming for.. If you're going for tension then fading the music, big build up etc are the order fo the day. If you're going for the more bouldering-film style interest then this sort of music seems good. It doesn't seem like he was aiming for the tensiony stuff; I don't think that would work in a youtube short anyway as it's too short to get into it..

In reply to abarro81:

Surely you're aiming to convey something of how the experience of climbing the route feels?

>If you're going for tension then fading the music, big build up etc are the order fo the day. If you're going for the more bouldering-film style interest then this sort of music seems good.

But Master's Edge is not bouldering!

>It doesn't seem like he was aiming for the tensiony stuff; I don't think that would work in a youtube short anyway as it's too short to get into it..

I can't believe that climbing Master's Edge does not involve a lot of adrenaline and tension.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

of course it would, but he might have decided that trying to get people to feel that tension in a 3 min youtube clip wouldn't work (I don't think it would) and gone for a different effect/audience.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

I never understand why you'd want music in climbing videos at all. If you want music to go with it put some music on the damned stereo. What you definitely don't need is the filmmaker's choice of pop musak.

I just assumed it was ground-up because he falls off such a lot (I used on-sight to mean on-sight attempt; obviously he didn't on-sight the route).

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Climbing videos with no music would be crap. Just my opinion obviously... Stuff like the Dosages are editted to fit very well with the music most of the time too.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You're expressing my exact feelings much more strongly than I'd dare!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Music can add to it greatly, not in all cases, but in some.

Two filmmakers who understand this and do it well are Josh Lowell and Alaister Lee -not only do they know how to select appropriate music to the footage but they have good rhythm and impeccable timing.

I think they may have jazz and blues genes in their blood.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

MIck - it's the blanket use of music that never works at all, unless it is simply a pop video about the music, that uses eg. climbing simply as a moving wallpaper backdrop. Usually it's a simple means of avoiding any kind of soundtrack at all. The way music works in a film is always in the context of many scenes that have no music at all, many which combine music and/or dialogue and effects, and a few (usually very few, if any) that have simply a music track. The music is always fantastically carefully integrated into the whole multi-dimensional structure of the film.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: I'm happy to give feedback on this as it's been asked for and hopefully this will be taken as constructive criticism....

I liked the camera positions, the closeup and distance shots, and the steadiness of the shots. I thought the music was ok

My main criticism - which may be related to age/attitude etc is that I don't like slomo or speeded up sequences in climbing films. I like to see the climbing as it really was, including the climber chalking up or rehearsing a move etc. As an example, I thought Sea Fever by Martin Crocker was a great climbing film, it wasn't fantastic technically and could have done with more close up camera work, but having climbed at Pembroke a few times it seemed to me that it gave a real sense of what Pembroke was about. Watching someone climb something you aspire to or have done really connects you with the film and the place. Masters edge is way out of my league but I have walked past it a few times and have a great shot of Ron Fawcett on it from an old climbing calendar. I think a bit more time showing the route before anyone gets on it, maybe some narrative about its history would add a lot to the film.

I would have liked to see a bit more film about the gear. On a serious trad climb the gear is paramount and I would liked to have seen more clearly what he put in and perhaps slomo would be acceptable if its too quick to see in real time. Some of the action was a little jerky too - it might have been the feed off YouTube but I did let it load first before playing it.

Overall though well worth watching !

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Hi Dave,

So now I know who you are! I saw that clip on Facebook last week and wondered.

I really enjoyed that, some great footage there. I particularly liked the barn door low down and the slap for the jug high up. It looks like a hard route to film too, quite difficult to get good vantage points.

Mick asked me to give some critique, so here are a few thoughts.

Firstly, when people watch a film, what they see will prompt a lot of questions from the viewer, and you need to anticipate these and answer at least some of them. So watching this, the questions that I immediately thought of were:
- who is this guy
- why does he want to climb this route
- is this easy for him, or really hard
- what does he expect to happen
- is it safe or exposed
- what is the climbing like
- where are the hard bits
- what is the gear like (ok, I know, but most people wont)
- what will it mean to him if he succeeds

I guess that the important thing is that you think about your target audience who are going to watch the film. If they are hardcore grit climbers, then you can get away without explaining much at all as they know most of this. If it is the wider climbing community, then they need some information in order for them to engage with the climber, and care about whether they succeed or not. Even if the film is only 4 minutes, it still needs a story and context.

Slackjaw are really good at bringing out this sort of information by getting the climbers to talk, some of it to camera, and some of it as voice over as the climber is on the route.

Some technical points:
- audio is really important. Radio mic on the climber is the best solution. Failing that, a really directional shotgun mic like a 416 next best. Without being able to hear the climber on the route, there is little choice but to play music over the whole ascent
- on the top out the exposure blows out. Don’t let camera run on auto
- avoid zooming
- the colour balance on the different angles of the lower part are quite different. It is necessary to adjust (in FCP or Color) these so that they are all the same, else they don’t cut together well.

Some editing points
- it is a long route to show the whole ascent. If you identify the key sections in advance, then you can focus on these in the edit, and miss out some of the less exciting bits
- Ideally you would have more camera angles (you have some on the low part, but not higher up) Easier said than done of course. But there aren’t many routes that you can cover well from just one angle.
- A wide shot of the whole route is always good. Some general views of the venue etc.
- Shots of the belayer. You set this up in advance, about what they would have to do if he fell. So it would have been nice to have one or two shots of them during the ascent.

So good luck with the film. Looking forward to seeing it in the autumn.


Cheers
Dave Brown
Hot Aches

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: nice little movie, i like it, i think the lyrics detract but the music was fine

and as mick always says this is a site for all, so maybe a parental advisory explicit lyrics on this clip

Anyone know who the music's by?

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: I think some of the criricisms above are a little unfair as you have to bear in mind this is only a very short clip wich retricts what you can do. However I do agree that the music was totally incongruous and very distracting, I had to turn the volume to minimum half way through, I couldn't stand it any longer. Thats always a problem with music, whatever you choose there'll always be a sizeable proportion of the audience who won't like it. Instrumental music would be less distracting and used in moderation at the "right" moments only is perhaps a better compromise

In reply to Snot:

Tracks called "Earl Aint Real" by Pneumatic and Sloth. Not sure what mix it is though.

Brit Rap at it's best.

The Ent

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I agree with virtually everything Gordon has said. In many ways the genre is getting tired, and it needs moving forward. Doing something new and innovitive isn't easy though! The words of judges at Kendal etc are worth listening to, sound is a very important 'dark' art. Narrative is important - a begining, middle and end. Regarding music many film young film makers take their que from the skateboard / snowboard film genre which is music heavy.

Good to see the 'youth' giving it a go. It may be worth looking beyond the 'outdoor' film scene, my advice would be to check out short documentary film courses, classic docos and movies. Take inspiration from other areas.

In reply to Henry Iddon:

For example this was brilliant.

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/cutting_edge/girls_found_alive...

Wonderfully shot, a complex story and well crafted. Nothing to do with climbing but it showed all the aspects of crafted documentary making.

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

Funny thing music. I watched the other great vid of Tom Randall on the roof crack and thought that the music was the most dull, boring genre of crappy adult type rock grunge shyte there is. But i'd never say that in public.

The Ent

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC:

>Josh Lowell

Watched a couple of bits from one of his videos on trip to Norway. Never noticed if he had great rhythm or 'blues genes' due to his irritating, arrogant- weirdo- geek 'speaking to camera in editing suite' bits.
As soon as he started talking to camera I wanted to steal his dinner money and laugh at his Star Wars figure collection.
The whole thing was redolant of 'librarian turned porn director'.
Doubt I will ever be arsed to watch anthing of his again.
Great guy though.

'Underdeveloped' is a good contrast to this over glossed, Sharma worship pish. Actual climbing and folk not trying to be 'cool'.

R.E. the video on this topic- it's good until the fast forward bit at the end which ruins the tension. This is the point where you expect the ascent to be most watchable because of the tension of the groundfall risk.

Davie

In reply to Mick Ryan - Editor - UKC: I actually quite like the music, but then I would quite like that anyway, as opposed to it fitting in better than anything else. The first thing that I thought about the film was who is the climber, and why is he climbing the route, there's no backstory really.
Secondly it is really obvious that this was filmed with one camera. That sounds like a stupid thing to say, but it is very obvious that the few wide shots facing the crag are not taken during the ascent, and they don't fit in well. I am not really explaining myself very clearly, sorry!
The close ups of the foot and hand spoil the flow of the edit-they are done really clunkily. The speed ups may keep it short, but they are pretty naff-the chalking/psyching up moments, which should be tense, are spoiled as a result.
The main angle is nice, as is the chat with the belayers.
Sam