UKC

"Taaaaaaaake!" Hurtling through the air, arms bathed in lactic torment, body quivering from the exhaustion and the shock it's not a good time to be wondering if your belay device is up to scratch. Thankfully however, I stop before I hit the ground!...

Kevin Avery takes the plunge - all in the name of Gear Testing!

Read the new Black Diamond ATC review here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1048

In reply to UKC Gear:

By the sounds of it, it does the job, but I don't really see the point.

A classic ATC, works on the same diameter ropes, weighs 1 gram less, cost £1 less and you can absail on that too. Surley sport climbers absail too?

I know you can rig the ATC Sport to absail with, but it is much more faff to set up a retrevable absail, plus you would have to leave a krab too.

Why would you buy an ATC sport over a classic ATC?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

That's what I was wondering too ... mind you I'm no sport climber.

In reply to Alex Roddie: I think you both miss the point. But go sport climbing together and see who is going to belay the other on single 9mm with a classic ATC and you'll get it pretty quickly. And probably some free crutches from the NHS. If you're lucky.

In reply to TobyA:
As I said I don't know anything about sport climbing, so I'm happy to be enlightened!

In reply to Alex Roddie: Its actually nothing to do with sport climbing. Classic ATCs are designed only to be used with single ropes of the older generation - I can't remember exactly but probably 10.2 or bigger. I got rid of my ATC classic after getting scared abseiling with it in the Alps when it was too slick on overhanging or vertical abseils with thinnish double ropes.

I the ATC guide is much better, I happily use it with my single 9.1 revelation. the ATC sport just appears to be a lighter cheaper version of that for those who don't use double ropes.

In reply to TobyA:

Ah! I knew this one was comming. The old a classic ATC doesn't work on skinny ropes myth, which is basically bollocks.

ATC are designed to be used with 9mm ropes, in face the work well with 8mm and 8.5mm half ropes too. I've used one extenivley, absailed with one, held pretty reasonable lobs with one. Never ever have exspirenced any problems with ropes slipping.

In reply to UKC Gear:

Not sure I get the point either, seems a very limited device, why not just buy an XP or similar device. Its not like your carrying loads when your sports climbing.

In reply to Duncan_S: I guess it's not aimed much at British climbers - but in many climbing areas, if you don't ice climb, 95% of people only use single ropes. Then you could ask why buy an XP - you are paying for a slot that you never use?

I last used double ropes on rock last summer when I was at Gogarth. I've climbed once a week since then, but only with a single - except ice climbing - and I guess that's very typical for climbers where I live. So if you don't like grigris etc (or can't afford one) its a perfectly valid device. Personally I'd still prefer a guide so I can take hands off whilst belaying the second to take pics etc.

In reply to TobyA:

Fair enough, but as Tom said, what about the multi pitch abseils you do on sport routes? I can see them being discounted very quickly in the UK.

In reply to UKC Gear:

Looks pointless to me.. when would you ever need to belay a single 7.1mm rope, when your not going to have the need for absailing?

In reply to williamisgoldsmith:

Any time you walk down from the top, or get lowered off from the chains?

And it's "you're" and "abseiling".

The main people I can see using these are indoor climbers who never get outside. And I guess there must be some sport climbers that never do any multi-pitch or any other sort of climbing. But yeah, pretty limited market.

In reply to TobyA:


One thing I am concerned about with gri-gris is that they encourgae complacency and can be threaded the wrong way round. They are technically a superior device - its human behaviour that is at fault. The ATC might be better for encouraging better practice.

In reply to Simon Lee:


Did exactly this with my mate's eddy this weekend. Fortunately he didn't fall off. Confusingly the eddy is the opposite way round to a grigri! I think I could still hold it the wrong way - it would work like a normal belay plate making the rope go round corners but glad I didn't have to find out!

In reply to Luke90:

Not in huge sections of the world that aren't Britain.

In reply to lots of posters:

Just because a device isn't what you want, doesn't mean it's pointless. Just because we (the british), myself included, are obsessed by double ropes, doesn't mean the rest of the world are.

For £13, you can have a great device for single pitch sport cragging. Sounds pretty good to me!

Tom, old ATC's are scary to ab on, if you've got thin ropes, a big sac and are a tubber like me. Well, I bricked myself one too many times, even using 2 krabs, so invested in a guide which is loads better.

In reply to TobyA:
There is no market for it. It seems for once BD failed and gave into their marketing team and jumped on the gimmick band wagon.
Why would you climb with a belay plate you can't easily rap with, just to save a coupla g's? and if you aint rapping, why take a plate at all? if you're that desperate to save weight, there's always the italian hitch...
like I said, gimmick, just like all that shit on your backpacks.

-MagnuS

In reply to MRJ:

yeah kinda reminds me of the old single hole stitcht plates.....they were shit then....

In reply to MRJ:


If there is no market for it then BD must have a very weird marketing team...

Did you read what I wrote above as well? There are other places known to you perhaps as "foreign", where people don't abseil and don't use double ropes - I'm sure it will sell just fine there.

In reply to TobyA:
if they don't abseil, then they aint leaving the ground. simple fact. if they aint leaving the ground, then why the f*ck is their oh-so-heavy belay plate hangin' off their harness?
This is a piece of kit that n00bs and dumbasses will buy, realize they are dumbasses, then it will sit in the shed at home till they go single pitchin with a mate who aint got a plate. oh yeah and they will have to buy another one.
simple.

-MagnuS

In reply to MRJ:

Can someone translate that for me please?

In reply to Serpico:

Was thinking the same myself.

In reply to Serpico:

He sounds like an angry young man. I sort of agree with him though.

In reply to MRJ:


Is that what the thousands of grigri owners do as well?


And by the way, with your expertise and not being a n00b or a dumbass (a speechless donkey perhaps?) and all, it seem a wee bit surprising that you don't seem to know how to abseil on a grigri or ATC sport on a doubled rope.

Simple minds produce simple facts.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Don't you know how to abseil on double rope with a grigri or other single rope device Tom? It's been in the Petzl catalogue for well over a decade.

In reply to TobyA:

Yes I do... but you have to leave a biner if absailing off tat. Otherwise the friction of the moving rope burn through it. if two climbers were absailing (both with sport atcs) it would be quite a slow process.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


Hang on - you must be thinking of different way to me. I'm thinking of this - http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices/GRIGRI_D14601-I.pdf see page 6.

Are you thinking of simultaneous abs? Otherwise why is there more risk to the tat than on a normal ab?

And of course all climbers should know how to munter hitch abseil. Our hypothetical ATC sports climbers could do that, or make Krab brake plates etc etc.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Your spot on there!I also use a standard atc for pretty much all my climbing and have never had a single problem with rope slippage?

In reply to TobyA:

FFS Toby, why are you persisiting with this when you have quite clearly been told by Tom and Magnus that both you and those dunder heads at Black Diamond have got it wrong. It's all very well you banging on about foreign climbers but it's quite clear from what these two have written that this is not the market BD should be persuing. This sort of world view might go down well with these Eurocentric think tanks you are used to dealing with but its not for Tom and an its not for UKC either.

What you seem to forget is that Tom and Magnus must have well in excess of 3 years climbing between them; makes BD's so called marketing department look pretty small beer, eh?

In reply to Tyler:

Now that did make me LOL dude!

In reply to Tyler: I'm terribly sorry. I'm off to resling my hexes with some unfeasibly bulky old 9mm by way of penance.

p.s. aren't you glad that internet forums weren't around when you were 17?!

In reply to TobyA:


That's better, you're getting more like him by the day


It's a question I've pondered before and whilst I might have been a bit eager when I was 17 I'm not sure its entirely down to that.

In reply to UKC Gear:

That's the badger, saw one being used at weekend. Note the thoughtfully placed thumb rest so you can brace it there while taking in.

At least that is what was happening till I pointed out the dangers of doing it.