UKC

Or the trad equivalent in another grading system?
James

In reply to james oswald:

16.

End of thread.

In reply to quadmyre:
bullshit

In reply to james oswald: Sounds like a good estimate to me, assuming we're not not counting sport routes

In reply to quadmyre:

Name them ....LOL

In reply to james oswald:

Someone will be along in a minute to say "I know loads of people who climb E10 all the time, only they do it quietly and don't tell anyone about it."

In reply to pingod:

John Dunne
Dave MaCleod
Adrian Berry

In reply to james oswald:

Very easy nobody.

There are a set of worked ascents of routes that it is thought would be E10 or harder if they were to be led onsight.

See the "are E grades broken?" thread....

In reply to J1234:

James Pearson
Dave Birkett
Dave Macleod
Neil Bentley
Neil Gresham
erm....

no, wait - it's a trick question. The answer is NONE, they have all climbed F7/8/something R/X. Right?

In reply to J1234:

thats only three- what about the other 14?

In reply to J1234: Dunne's E10s have both been downgraded, so think he's off the list.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

John Arran

In reply to Sean_J:

Unless Widdop Wall gets upgraded, of course. No one has managed to repeat that.

In reply to james oswald:
Sonnie trotter

In reply to davidwright:

Couldn't agree more. A better question would be "how many people have onsighted E8 (or the equivalent)?".

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Sonny Trotter
Steve McClure

In reply to james oswald:


Indeed - a fitting answer to your post then.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Steve McClure
Si O'Connor

In reply to Sean_J:

Breathless has been downgraded, but I thought Dunne did two in the Lakes, or am I thinking of one of the many Birkett E9s?

In reply to james oswald: Beth Rhodden & Tommy Caldwell as well. Ron Kauk too (Magic Line)

In reply to james oswald:
Huber brothers?

In reply to james oswald: Was thinking of them, can't think of any specific route though.

Does The Nose measure up to E10?

In reply to Sean_J:
I was told it was more like E8, however it could be wrong.

In reply to james oswald:
Leo Houlding

In reply to james oswald: crux pitch is 5.14a/b according to wikipedia, sounds harder than E8 to me!

In reply to Sean_J:
yep, maybe what i heard was bullshit.

In reply to james oswald: Mark Edwards

In reply to Sean_J: Foreigners! Well done. Didier Berthod and Giovanni Quirici would be other contenders but these foreign johnnies will insist on grading their routes 8b+ and the like and not giving clear E grades. Most unhelpful.

In reply to james oswald:

This guy as well: -

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.html?id=68382

In reply to james oswald: no one has, have they?

In reply to Franco Cookson:
That point has been made already.

In reply to james oswald: iy, and now it's been made again. Surely it should of been end of thread when it was previously said?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Yep, I agree!

In reply to james oswald: There is no such thing as E10.

In reply to AntiGrav:

Or an equivalent sport grade

In reply to Franco Cookson:

If you're going to keep banging that drum I feel it only fair to point out that Patxi Usobiaga has onsighted two 8c+'s, which are generally reckoned to be the equivalent of E10, so he has, at least.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Well said that finally uninjured man....

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:


Quite so. But I don't consider 'sport climbing' to be anything but indoor climbing outside.

In reply to james oswald: Seb Grieve?

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Nice, but that's only E10 if he skipped a few clips, surely? I thought it went in twos, 7c is minimum E6, 8a E7 minimum, 8b E8 minimum, 8c E9 minimum, therefore, projecting from something I know bugger all about, into an area I know even less about, 9a is E10 minimum, not 8c+. Bizarrely, Hubble's only E9...

http://www.cragx.com/articles/issue05/ben_moon/index.htm

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

So therefore as in the lower grades you get much more bang for your buck in terms of a UK trad grade, for something long and juggy, than you do for something short and nails hard. And UK trad grades are supposedly completely and uniformly accurate in describing an onsight attempt. Good job Pearson can flash Font 8b or noone would stand a chance of calling themself an E9 climber.

In reply to AntiGrav:

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion, no matter how ill-considered it might be.

In reply to james oswald:

Twice!

In reply to All:

Aren't E grades great?

They generate so much discussion, dialogue, disagreement and ranting!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Where would your business model be without them Mick ?

In reply to TRNovice:

It's like this eternal revolving door. You've got all these new climbers lining up to enter it, once in it the same debates get discussed, dissected and debated and once you have had enough you get spat out and are free.

Some get stuck in it for quite some time.

Doesn't matter where it is, online, at the pub, in the car, at the crag, E grades provide endless talk talk....and it is peculiar to the UK.

Long may it continue.

In reply to midgets of the world unite: how can a bolted route have an E grade?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Depends how bolted it is...

In reply to Franco Cookson:

They used to, until French grades were introduced.

The E was used purely for effort.

For example: Raindogs at Malham Cove was given E7 6b which translates to an 8a sport grade.

What Stuart has done is extrapolated so 8c/+ gets E10/11.

Fun isn't it?

In reply to Franco Cookson: How can routes with bolts not have E grades?

In reply to Franco Cookson: E for Effort

In reply to Franco Cookson: Why not go do some Redhead/Dawes slate routes and get back to us on that, Franco?

In reply to Sean_J: I plan on doing a redhead route tonight thanks. Retro bolting is slightly different to claiming spanish 8c+s are E10s. a bit more danger on slate

In reply to Sean_J: P.S. why don't you?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

But Franco wouldn't know that as he has not been climbing very long. He just thinks everything is black and white, set in stone....

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Of course. Hence my post.

That is a problem in climbing, new climbers have no source to go to find out what went before. Guidebooks are good for that, but a climbing history book would be better.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
how about a article with a brief history of climbing with all the important ascents of the last n number of years for all us young climbers?

In reply to james oswald:

A UK centric book or a world scale?

In reply to nz Cragrat:
A UK centric book was the idea i had.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: iy, but the point is it isn't a real trad climb. Welsh slate is slightly differant as there is still massive danger envolved (more so than other routes), but with a bolt every metre there is no danger, perhaps a little pump, but there is always a bolt nearby- meaning no trad grade. no matter how pumpy/hard it is it aint no trad climb.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A universal climbing history guidebook... cracks slips and smears as a working title?

On the Franco front he's been immersed properly climbing a while now and should know the UK system could be used for bolted rock climbs. If it's safe (like a normal bolt route) it could be E10 if it's hard enough and from the variability of the headpoint based French system if the sequence is very tricky to spot onsight, could you not be looking at F8c, or even lower? It sounds academic but something of this type should propbably be used when comparing best flashed sport grades for good climbers: where some F8a's might be harder to flash than some F8a+s?

In reply to Offwidth: no, because no trad climb is ever 100% safe. you shouldn't be falling trad climbing, which goes dirrectly against the sport climbing ethic.

the general eqaution for trad grade is:

tech diff. x pump x danger = trad grade

if danger equals zero then the trad grade equals zero

In reply to james oswald:
The way eraven99's going, he'll be at E20 and beyond by Monday morning.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Like I said, you should already with your ability and experience (and will one day) know better. No climb is 100% safe; falls are not uncommon on safe but hard trad routes; a few climbers treat bolt routes as trad (they only onsight them).

I really do like your mad multiplication justification.

In reply to Offwidth:

Trad can often be safer than sport as you get the chance to evaluate every piece of gear yourself. Well placed gear can be as strong as a bolt, but there are many dodgy bolts out there, and they're basically impossible to assess whilst climbing. I've never had a trad belay fail, it has happened to me on bolts.

In reply to Offwidth: sport climbing is 100% safe. (if you're in a good area and the bolts were placed by someone who knew what they were doing)

In reply to Franco Cookson:
"sport climbing is 100% safe"

Nothing is 100% safe.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Please don't be an idiot Franco.

Sport climbing is not 100% safe. Many climbers have been injured and killed sport climbing.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

one route to confuse you then Franco, Frankie comes to Kilnsey....bolts in or out? how does your equation work there?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>
A little bit harsh there Mick, you have to remember Franco is young, hasn't been climbing very long and is still quite inexperienced.
A link to Bob's explanation of the UK grading system would help him understand it better.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco. did you really mean that?

In reply to Serpico:


I know that Serpico. He's a persistent offender with these ridiculous statements... and he is getting more experienced, but not enough not to be polarised about the different types and styles of climbing.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Didn't Martin Berzins bolt a route with resin anchors a few years back at Kilnsey? iirc he either fell or weighted a bolt high upand because the resin hadn't set correctly he took a whipper nearly the full height of the crag?

just goes to show that bolts aren't 100% safe and people are becoming inherantly flippant about how safe they really are

In reply to the inspiral carpet:
No, Berzins chopped the bolts on Frankie at Kilnsey, then years later tried to lead when it had been rebolted (not by him), sat on a bolt (not a resin) which failed and he fell.

In reply to Serpico:

i knew it was something like.....the last time i saw him though he was bolting at the top of malham

In reply to Serpico:

Earlier, after chopping the bolts, he lead it without the bolts, I was his belay bunny on that ascent.

Sport climbing dangerous, yes indeed - accidents have happened when falling, lowering off, not tying in, belay error to name a few - serious injuries and death.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I think your report has to be definitive, so some stuff above is hearsay, it will always be the case unless people come out from the cold and spill the truth! Myths have a way of self perpetuating in both directions!

In reply to Al Evans:

What report is that?

In reply to james oswald:

Franco i don't care how young you are or how long you've been climbing, you are full of shit and that last statement was absolutely absurd. I just can't be arsed to tell you politely.

In reply to james oswald:

sorry to drag this thread up again but I noticed a few people saying Steve McClure has climbed E10, maybe I'm talking s**t but I've got a feeling he hasn't, I'm pretty sure he said in an interview for climb magazine that he'd only done E9 before Rhapsody and so didnt want to get into the whole grade debate?

In reply to J.Wells:
I think that is correct.
Good dedication for bringing it up again.

In reply to james oswald:

Whoo! One step further to complete knowledge of Stevie! Hero worship is a beautiful thing

like i've said before sport climbing has it's uses, but when people ask, 'how many people have climbed E10' listing people who have climbed 9a is daft. The thing that goves trad it's danger grade is how much you don't want to fall off. With sport the mentality is 'push yourself until you fall'. there for (without being stupidly pedantic) sport climbing is safe and has not danger grade and there for no trad grade. Just a scientific way of looking at it. You can express it a differant way if you wish, but i won't understand.

like i say, when i reach the very best i can be at trad i may turn to sport, until then it's just a little training.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Franco noone asked your opinions on trad climbing.

In reply to Franco Cookson:
>like i say, when i reach the very best i can be at trad i may turn to sport, until then it's just a little training.

My word Franco, that has to be your stupidest comment to date!

In reply to Adam Lincoln: just cause you've never onsighted a route.

In reply to J.Wells:
"Whoo! One step further to complete knowledge of Stevie! Hero worship is a beautiful thing"

Lol

In reply to Franco Cookson:

No Franco, i've never onsighted a route in the 16 years ive been climbing/

In reply to Adam Lincoln: fill in ya profile then ya bolt clipper!

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Well as Steve has climbed E11 this is an acedemic point.


There are trad routes of all grades where this is the case as well.


I think you and I may have different definitions of scientific!


I'd venture to suggest that without doing a lot of sport climbing you will never 'reach the very best [you} can be at trad'. I'd be surprised if anyone has climbed E10 without having a pretty respectable background in sport climbing.

In reply to Tyler:

eh? i aint attacking sport climbers. Steve has climbed E11 cause he climbed E11, not cause he climbed 9a?


gear ripping and large run outs is much more likely on trad. I can't think of any trad route that is as safe as a sport climb.

iy

-iy training.:S if you practise on sport to help your trad, then that is training.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


At the higher grades that might be true but you and I both know that there are lots of very safe routes at every grade up to E6, there are also run outs aplenty in places like Ceuse or Gorges du Tarn

In reply to Tyler:

You have to remember Franco hasn't been climbing long and he needs a bit more experience before he fully understands it all.....

In reply to Tyler:
Aren't there any safe routes higher than E7?

In reply to james oswald:

Plenty.... E7 doesn't just stand for danger.

In reply to james oswald: yeh, there are quite a few safish ones.

In reply to james oswald:
What grade would cobra crack be if it was E graded? E10?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4755/climbing/gritlist/grit_e7.html