UKC

I was at Queen's Crag in Northumberland last Sunday, where I caught a bolderer/climber with a wire brush. On confronting him about it, he was completely unapologetic and stated "it was the only way to get the vegetation off".

My problem with wire brushes on sandstone is sandstone has a thin hard layer on the outside, with softer material underneath. Once the hard layer goes, the rest qucikly erodes (look at Child's Play at Bowden - although this has occurred from overuse rather than wire brushing). A wire brush will not only drastically accelerate the removal of this hard outer layer, but can also change the nature of the holds.

My questions are
1 is it now acceptable to use a wire brush on sandstone?
2 if someone does use a wire brush on sandstone can they legitimately claim a first ascent?

In my opinion, the answer to both these questions is "no"

discuss

In reply to SW:

It is never ok to use a wire brush on sandstone - for exactly the resasons you gave, also routes that have had holds chipped or have had holds 'abused' have been ommited from the guide(s).

ssimps

In reply to SW:

Whatever the rights and wrongs of your argument, the statement "sandstone has a thin hard layer on the outside, with softer material underneath. Once the hard layer goes, the rest quickly erodes " is NOT true in general. Millstones would last half an hour if that was true. This has been done to death in previous threads. Just because people seem to spend their entire lives bouldering at Bowden, trashing it in the process, they think sandstone is soft (which it is on much of Bowden). It isn't at Queens.

There are loads of problems in Northumberland where the initial cleaning was with wire brushing, and you'd never be able to tell. In hindsight I don't think it's necessary and I don't think it's ever necessary on established problems.

In reply to SW:
for what it's worth, and to annoy a pal of mine called Andy (he rants a lot at people who post and are no experts...), here is what I think.

Although I have been climbing in the UK for a few years now and have traveled significantly for it, including "down to the County", I am still not a geologist. For that reason I wouldn't be able to make any difference between soft and not so soft sandstone. So I apply the two rules of thumb that were given me when I first headed down to Northumberland:

1)Do not climb when the rock is wet, flakes get brittle and foot holds get bigger (do not know if proven but I'll err on the side of caution).

2) Do not brush loads (with plastic), wire brush is a crime punishable by death (by seasoned County men present).

I know it hasn't added anything to the debate but as made my otherwise rubbish day better by making me feel more important

In reply to French Erick:

Jesus Christ! Rock ethics from a frog! What next? Dietary advice from Americans?

In reply to SW:

Wire brush the bastards' eyeballs.

In reply to DaveHK:
Do not call the name of the Lord in vain.
We can settle this score in an epic battle of wills some time soon...doubting the ethical soundness of French climbers is akin to doubting the existence of rock

In reply to French Erick: We can call the epic battle Waterloo or Agincourt or something...


And before you start, (a) they were Norsemen really and (b) William The Conkerors brigade didn't do much up here. I don't think they could understand the grades.

In reply to SW: lets all spoon together and put this arguement behind us

In reply to SW:

Frankly, it depends on the crag, the rock and the vegetation. Anyone who simply states that there should be no wire brushing on sandstone has clearly never put any effort into cleaning a vegetated route. That said, I have mostly used nylon brushes when cleaning on sandstone. My cleaning kit includes:

Trowel
Patio scraper
Crow bar
Welder's Wire brush
Wire toothbrush
Nut key
Nylon brush
Piper cleaner
Pruning saw

Some people are going to love that list.

In reply to SW:
I noticed yesterday at bowden boulders, quite a few holds that have been overly cleaned in the last few weeks.

In reply to pigeonjim:
To be honest I don't think it really matters at that end of Bowden anymore, traffic alone has made the problems unrecognisable from the originals.

Northumbrian Sandstone varies massively in it's makeup. The far end of Bowden, Corby's Dovehole are VERY soft and problems can't last even with no brushing. Unless they've been treated with the magic fluid of course. Queens, Wanneys etc are VERY hard and can take brushing and elmiost endless traffic.