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The symptom is what I think of as power-fade, when, on a route at my redpoint limit, 7b+. I can do any or all of the moves, I can do decent links on a top-rope or lead, but then ground up get to a point 3/4, or 9/10 of the way when the move I could do 100% of the time after a rest becomes impossible, I have no power left to do it, fingers uncurl, arms don't work
My thoughts are it's a power endurance failure, correct me please if I'm mis-identifying.
I'm trying to find a power endurance solution that fits my training availability. I've a moon board at home( for strength, can I do a PE session on a board? I use Ocasio routines ), and two decent bouldering walls where i can construct long circuits.
I've seen the following
So three options, any suggestions, alternatives or improvements?
My thoughts are it's a power endurance failure, correct me please if I'm mis-identifying.
I'm trying to find a power endurance solution that fits my training availability. I've a moon board at home( for strength, can I do a PE session on a board? I use Ocasio routines ), and two decent bouldering walls where i can construct long circuits.
I've seen the following
- From a Neil Gresham article
- From random internet searches including UKC
- From a Steve McClure article
Guidelines for interval training for climbing
The table belay shows a sample interval training structure for combining length and intensity of climbing work with the appropriate rest times for anaerobic endurance.
Suggested interval training layout for the development of anaerobic endurance:
Work time 40sec 60sec 90sec 2 min
Aprox no. of moves 10 18 26 34
Rest time 1-2 min 3-5 min 4-10 min 5-15 min
No. per session 6-16 5-15 4-12 4-10
the 4 x 4 approach
which i've interpreted as four problems up and down near your limit with equal sized rests in-between.
Routes and bouldering
Probably the best training for PE is on routes or boulder circuits you know well and don't have individual crux moves. When first embarking on PE training spend a day working out a circuit of around 30 moves with no easy sections or rests.
...some cut....
Take around 15 minutes between repetition and do three to four repetitions per session.
So three options, any suggestions, alternatives or improvements?
In reply to richardh: I'm no expert and I could be completely wrong but here's a completely different take. It sounds like you are covering your power endurance base. At a guess (I have never climbed 7b+!)you ar making near the most of your finger strength (V5-6 boulder) at this grade. Strengthen your fingers and the preceding moves will be less taxing hence leaving more energy for the finish. Personally this approach has had the most significant effect on my power endurance (which isn't saying much really!)although it seems slightly counterintuitive?? and does take longer to train!
In reply to maxpie:
possibly that may help, it sounds logical enough, if you can save a bit on each move the whole thing might be easier, though I've read contrary as well, as it's not the pure strength that's the limiting factor in power fade, is it recruitment of what you have?
possibly that may help, it sounds logical enough, if you can save a bit on each move the whole thing might be easier, though I've read contrary as well, as it's not the pure strength that's the limiting factor in power fade, is it recruitment of what you have?
In reply to richardh: the 4 x 4 approach
which i've interpreted as four problems up and down near your limit with equal sized rests in-between.
No its a set of 4 problems done back to back. You do 4 sets with 4 mins rest between sets.
You could make it more relevant to your project by choosing problems similar to the sections of the route.
which i've interpreted as four problems up and down near your limit with equal sized rests in-between.
No its a set of 4 problems done back to back. You do 4 sets with 4 mins rest between sets.
You could make it more relevant to your project by choosing problems similar to the sections of the route.
In reply to richardh: Yeah the terminology can be confusing and this isn't exactly my area of expertise so it will be interesting to read what other people say! The endurance aspect of it is probably to to with lactate threshold, once you reach it and lactate builds up to too high a level you are unable to recruit/contract efficiently. Improving your 'climbing power endurance'could be achieved by delaying lactate build up, clearing the lactate quickly whilst working so as not to excessively impede contraction/recruitment and clearing the lactate quickly during periods of 'available/relative rest' so as to not impede contraction/recruitment. So finger strength training will probably give you the delay in lactate build up if you keep the route constant whereas the power endurance circuits will improve the latter two processes moreso??
In reply to maxpie:
Best thing i believe is to train all the sorts of endurance getting more specific closer to your goal...
Training recovery endurance(continuad or continuite specifique in spanish and french lingo) pushes your technique &your bodies ability to tolerate mind numbing pump and most importantly if trained with different forms of anaerobic endurance it will combine to probaly train your mind to tell you.."yes i CAN hang on" when perhaps you had been not so sure before.
How do you 'train' this?I still think its best done by training long circuits on multi angled boards..50+moves.Or maybe down climbing routes as well as long as the down climb is easy relative to the up climb.
The main thing is to be able to train boulder circuits where you can address the different issues of firstly sprinting through cruxs on a step bit but also recovery on less steep ground but with say bad holds.You can change the variables vary according to your needs.Basicaly mix it up.
Best thing i believe is to train all the sorts of endurance getting more specific closer to your goal...
Training recovery endurance(continuad or continuite specifique in spanish and french lingo) pushes your technique &your bodies ability to tolerate mind numbing pump and most importantly if trained with different forms of anaerobic endurance it will combine to probaly train your mind to tell you.."yes i CAN hang on" when perhaps you had been not so sure before.
How do you 'train' this?I still think its best done by training long circuits on multi angled boards..50+moves.Or maybe down climbing routes as well as long as the down climb is easy relative to the up climb.
The main thing is to be able to train boulder circuits where you can address the different issues of firstly sprinting through cruxs on a step bit but also recovery on less steep ground but with say bad holds.You can change the variables vary according to your needs.Basicaly mix it up.
In reply to richardh: As a qualified fitness instructor although at the moment I'm not climbing your grade but I'll give you my take on your problem. You don't say how high your problem is?
Find yourself a route which is two grades lower than your project but the same height or slightly higher and then do laps on this. Top-rope to the top, lower then 10 seconds rest then climb again do this 10 times then move up a grade. When you can do this at the same grade or one lower I think you should then be able to walk up you route.
Find yourself a route which is two grades lower than your project but the same height or slightly higher and then do laps on this. Top-rope to the top, lower then 10 seconds rest then climb again do this 10 times then move up a grade. When you can do this at the same grade or one lower I think you should then be able to walk up you route.
In reply to The brainn:
It's a 20m route, which from the above might not be clear, but for me to do 10 x 7a+ in a session would be pretty much an ultimate shutdown!
It's a 20m route, which from the above might not be clear, but for me to do 10 x 7a+ in a session would be pretty much an ultimate shutdown!
1
In reply to richardh:
It is a power endurance issue. All of the training processes you have mentioned will work. So why not mix it up a bit. Make two of your sessions a week specific to power endurance and pick two of those workouts (which ever takes your fancy really)
You can also measure improvement very easily
It is a power endurance issue. All of the training processes you have mentioned will work. So why not mix it up a bit. Make two of your sessions a week specific to power endurance and pick two of those workouts (which ever takes your fancy really)
You can also measure improvement very easily
In reply to andy farnell:
dont forget mate Rich is 6'2 (maybe 3) i'm guessing there may be differences in available feet placements
Think rich is referring to training in general rather than a specific route?
Cheers
Tim
dont forget mate Rich is 6'2 (maybe 3) i'm guessing there may be differences in available feet placements
Think rich is referring to training in general rather than a specific route?
Cheers
Tim
In reply to andy farnell:
PE failures on slabculture and truth drug respectively
slabculture fine, I can get across the traverse and clip the last bolt, and then there's nothing in the forearms. I can then do the moves every time after a rest.
PE failures on slabculture and truth drug respectively
slabculture fine, I can get across the traverse and clip the last bolt, and then there's nothing in the forearms. I can then do the moves every time after a rest.
In reply to richardh:
Well you have answered the question to your problem?
It's not meant to be easy.
Good luck
> (In reply to The brainn)
>
> It's a 20m route, which from the above might not be clear, but for me to do 10 x 7a+ in a session would be pretty much an ultimate shutdown!
>
> It's a 20m route, which from the above might not be clear, but for me to do 10 x 7a+ in a session would be pretty much an ultimate shutdown!
Well you have answered the question to your problem?
It's not meant to be easy.
Good luck
In reply to richardh:
be as specific as you can with route selection.
4x4's have been explained but for routes pick ones that are most like your goal route. Even if it's only angle and length. best to have 2 or 3 if you can for variety.
The following are for routes 2 grades below your max onsight.
15-20 moves long - 8 to 10 repeats with 2.5-3 mins rest
20-30 moves long - 7 to 9 repeats with 3-4 mins rest
30-50 moves long - 6 to 8 repeats with 4-4.5mins rest
For 3 grades below use same recovery as climb time and for 1 grade below double your climb time.
For your route length the 30-50 would obviously suit best.
be as specific as you can with route selection.
4x4's have been explained but for routes pick ones that are most like your goal route. Even if it's only angle and length. best to have 2 or 3 if you can for variety.
The following are for routes 2 grades below your max onsight.
15-20 moves long - 8 to 10 repeats with 2.5-3 mins rest
20-30 moves long - 7 to 9 repeats with 3-4 mins rest
30-50 moves long - 6 to 8 repeats with 4-4.5mins rest
For 3 grades below use same recovery as climb time and for 1 grade below double your climb time.
For your route length the 30-50 would obviously suit best.
In reply to The brainn:
When you can do this at the same grade or one lower I think you should then be able to walk up you route.
Indeed he would. In fact he should be able to walk up 8b+ if he can repeat 10 7a+'s with only 10 secs between each one ;0)
When you can do this at the same grade or one lower I think you should then be able to walk up you route.
Indeed he would. In fact he should be able to walk up 8b+ if he can repeat 10 7a+'s with only 10 secs between each one ;0)
In reply to richardh:
I meant to add that the Steve Mac article will show improvements but i don't think it's as good as following a proper progression of overload like this example.
Boulder circuit grade - 7a+ ( for your needs )
Moves - 40
Repeats - 6
Rest - 5 min
Then inc volume and up repeats to 7 or 8 in a session
Then drop to 30 moves and 6 repeats but working down to 4 mins rest.
Then increase intensity ( already increased a bit in the last change ) by dropping to 20 moves 6 repeats with 5 mins rest.
Finally up to 7a+, 3o moves, 6 repeats and 5 mins rest and work through it again from the start.
I would expect this to take about 6 weeks or so 2 or 3 times a week.
Whilst this is the most hassle it's the most scientific.
Routes are the most specific and 4x4's seem to be an excellent mid way.
All i need to do is put my knowledge into practice and get off my fat arse for my str end project.
I meant to add that the Steve Mac article will show improvements but i don't think it's as good as following a proper progression of overload like this example.
Boulder circuit grade - 7a+ ( for your needs )
Moves - 40
Repeats - 6
Rest - 5 min
Then inc volume and up repeats to 7 or 8 in a session
Then drop to 30 moves and 6 repeats but working down to 4 mins rest.
Then increase intensity ( already increased a bit in the last change ) by dropping to 20 moves 6 repeats with 5 mins rest.
Finally up to 7a+, 3o moves, 6 repeats and 5 mins rest and work through it again from the start.
I would expect this to take about 6 weeks or so 2 or 3 times a week.
Whilst this is the most hassle it's the most scientific.
Routes are the most specific and 4x4's seem to be an excellent mid way.
All i need to do is put my knowledge into practice and get off my fat arse for my str end project.
In reply to richardh:
I have been giving this some thought for a while. FWIW I don't train PE directly because I dont think it fits most British limestone routes. The same isn't true for comp climbing or euro venues like Rodellar. I also think PE training could lead to digging yourself into a hole and burnout. The alternative strategy I have been broadly following is to tackle either end of the spectrum ie Max strength training (so in simple terms the moves seem easier) and ARC training to improve the blood supply so better recovery can be achieved on rests. Most Brit lime routes tend to have shorter hard sections and then an opportunity for limited recovery and so fits this better. This is a long term strategy as both max strength gains and capillarity (especially coupled with hypertrophy) take a long time to achieve.
However, I may be misguided. Or more likely lazy - PE work sounds haard.
I have been giving this some thought for a while. FWIW I don't train PE directly because I dont think it fits most British limestone routes. The same isn't true for comp climbing or euro venues like Rodellar. I also think PE training could lead to digging yourself into a hole and burnout. The alternative strategy I have been broadly following is to tackle either end of the spectrum ie Max strength training (so in simple terms the moves seem easier) and ARC training to improve the blood supply so better recovery can be achieved on rests. Most Brit lime routes tend to have shorter hard sections and then an opportunity for limited recovery and so fits this better. This is a long term strategy as both max strength gains and capillarity (especially coupled with hypertrophy) take a long time to achieve.
However, I may be misguided. Or more likely lazy - PE work sounds haard.
In reply to Simon Lee:
I agree,ok on a 10-15m rt thats truely gonna be a 1 min sprint fine concentrate on high intensity AE training-ALOT at least the closer you get to trying your goal.Otherwise do whatever it takes to specificaly train your ability to recover from bouts of AE without hanging on the bolts.I guess its a strenghts and weakness's thing.Also I have to say I do not trad climb anymore and I suppose if someone climbs nr or close to their limit doing this they will aquire recovery endurance on the way doing this.
I agree,ok on a 10-15m rt thats truely gonna be a 1 min sprint fine concentrate on high intensity AE training-ALOT at least the closer you get to trying your goal.Otherwise do whatever it takes to specificaly train your ability to recover from bouts of AE without hanging on the bolts.I guess its a strenghts and weakness's thing.Also I have to say I do not trad climb anymore and I suppose if someone climbs nr or close to their limit doing this they will aquire recovery endurance on the way doing this.
In reply to witnessthis:
Certainly I'm finding I'm gaining the PE on repeated attempts of the routes, quite quickly, but trying to augment that.
Did a 4 x 4 last night as a starter before digesting Biscuit's post above, after a warm up did 8 sets of 4, it really did recreate that powerfade feeling! utterly shattered today.
The main issue I found was that the volume of climing left my fingers so sore I couldn't bear to do another set of four just due to skin pain rather than arm ability! That's just an issue of toughening up!
Certainly I'm finding I'm gaining the PE on repeated attempts of the routes, quite quickly, but trying to augment that.
Did a 4 x 4 last night as a starter before digesting Biscuit's post above, after a warm up did 8 sets of 4, it really did recreate that powerfade feeling! utterly shattered today.
The main issue I found was that the volume of climing left my fingers so sore I couldn't bear to do another set of four just due to skin pain rather than arm ability! That's just an issue of toughening up!
In reply to richardh:
it's called a 4x4 because you do 4 lots of 4 problems.
If you managed 8 the problems are too easy - or you're superkeen ;0)
Knock them up a v grade and see what happens.
it's called a 4x4 because you do 4 lots of 4 problems.
If you managed 8 the problems are too easy - or you're superkeen ;0)
Knock them up a v grade and see what happens.
In reply to Simon Lee:
I may be wrong but do you find it easy to make str gains at your end of the spectrum? I know you have recently gained some but surely you are nearing what you can attain and these gains are very hard to come by ?
I would think the gains from Str increase would be harder for you to get than some str end work if that is something you haven't done before.
You may be a natural Str End monster though. You couldn't have done the climbs you have without it. Again i thought that a lot of our limestone were str end routes. I don't really sport climb so i'm no expert but 20 to 40 hard moves over a short time sounds like str end to me.
>
> However, I may be misguided. Or more likely lazy - PE work sounds haard.
> However, I may be misguided. Or more likely lazy - PE work sounds haard.
I may be wrong but do you find it easy to make str gains at your end of the spectrum? I know you have recently gained some but surely you are nearing what you can attain and these gains are very hard to come by ?
I would think the gains from Str increase would be harder for you to get than some str end work if that is something you haven't done before.
You may be a natural Str End monster though. You couldn't have done the climbs you have without it. Again i thought that a lot of our limestone were str end routes. I don't really sport climb so i'm no expert but 20 to 40 hard moves over a short time sounds like str end to me.
In reply to biscuit:
Endurance has been a strength whereas strength has beeen a weakness ! But I am working to correct this. Some noticeable strength gains such as doing a 1 armer may be just addresssing a a weak point in the chain such as a specific shoulder girdle type weakness so maybe another noticeable step improvement will take forever - in my case a one armer on an edge is an obvious goal to work towards. Doing the move on the Powerband it is difficult to isolate the factors that made a diffrence. Certainly holding the pocket but also holding the broken lock position and having better core to stab the left fot out in control.
Also I think if you have been climbing a while any improvements in strength can be quickly translated to rock too but probably less so for for those have been at it less time.
Redpointing at least you can sprint hard sections to get to a recovery point. Of course a lot of strength endurance in climbing is finger strength endurance - burlier climbing just shuts you down which feels diffrent though I suspect the same metabolic processes are at work. You can reach a point where you can recover on something all the way wheras before it was a strength enurance issue. I was accused last night of resting my way up a route rather than climbing it. It wassn't meant as a compliment but I took it that way. Sorry bit of a brain dump - hope I answered the question in a roundabout way.
Endurance has been a strength whereas strength has beeen a weakness ! But I am working to correct this. Some noticeable strength gains such as doing a 1 armer may be just addresssing a a weak point in the chain such as a specific shoulder girdle type weakness so maybe another noticeable step improvement will take forever - in my case a one armer on an edge is an obvious goal to work towards. Doing the move on the Powerband it is difficult to isolate the factors that made a diffrence. Certainly holding the pocket but also holding the broken lock position and having better core to stab the left fot out in control.
Also I think if you have been climbing a while any improvements in strength can be quickly translated to rock too but probably less so for for those have been at it less time.
Redpointing at least you can sprint hard sections to get to a recovery point. Of course a lot of strength endurance in climbing is finger strength endurance - burlier climbing just shuts you down which feels diffrent though I suspect the same metabolic processes are at work. You can reach a point where you can recover on something all the way wheras before it was a strength enurance issue. I was accused last night of resting my way up a route rather than climbing it. It wassn't meant as a compliment but I took it that way. Sorry bit of a brain dump - hope I answered the question in a roundabout way.
In reply to witnessthis:
Hi Dave. I agree with both your posts. I always thought of you as a boulderer too !
Hi Dave. I agree with both your posts. I always thought of you as a boulderer too !
In reply to Simon Lee:
No higher praise.
Mick
> (In reply to biscuit)
> I was accused last night of resting my way up a route rather than climbing it. It wassn't meant as a compliment but I took it that way.
No higher praise.
Mick
In reply to biscuit:
Second that. After finding the 1st set pretty easy, you should be failing on the 16th problem, ie the 4th problem of the 4th set, and feel totally trashed. As others have said, it's a very tricky art to choose the right 4 problems to rep.
> (In reply to richardh)
>
> it's called a 4x4 because you do 4 lots of 4 problems.
>
> If you managed 8 the problems are too easy - or you're superkeen ;0)
>
>
> it's called a 4x4 because you do 4 lots of 4 problems.
>
> If you managed 8 the problems are too easy - or you're superkeen ;0)
>
Second that. After finding the 1st set pretty easy, you should be failing on the 16th problem, ie the 4th problem of the 4th set, and feel totally trashed. As others have said, it's a very tricky art to choose the right 4 problems to rep.
In reply to Fraser:
Surely you'll then take 10-20 min rest and come back for another set (or more)? Since spring I've been convinced doing circuits in sets like this is the way to fitness, it certainly lets you pump your arms full of more lactic acid than my old tactic of doing fixed rest times with the objective of 6-8 reps on the circuit then just stopping.
Also, I've been doing the rest times opposite to biscuit's structure, i.e. longer rests for short circuits, short rests on longer circuits. This is so the shorter cirucits can be hard and intense, giving you the full-power-drain whilst the longer ones are easier and with shorter rests for the more european-arm-busting-stamina-pump. This was following on from something Dave Mcleod said and discussions with some mates... Thoughts?
Surely you'll then take 10-20 min rest and come back for another set (or more)? Since spring I've been convinced doing circuits in sets like this is the way to fitness, it certainly lets you pump your arms full of more lactic acid than my old tactic of doing fixed rest times with the objective of 6-8 reps on the circuit then just stopping.
Also, I've been doing the rest times opposite to biscuit's structure, i.e. longer rests for short circuits, short rests on longer circuits. This is so the shorter cirucits can be hard and intense, giving you the full-power-drain whilst the longer ones are easier and with shorter rests for the more european-arm-busting-stamina-pump. This was following on from something Dave Mcleod said and discussions with some mates... Thoughts?
In reply to abarro81:...Thoughts?
Impressed that you are disecting the diffrent types of PE.
Are these timed circuits?. With training resistance to fatigue the duration is as important as load. With circuits you can set the level of difficulty but as you get more practiced at the moves the duration will drop so you end up training something a bit diffrent from where you started.
All this talk of PE got me doing one set last night laddering uop and down a systems board on incut edges timed for 90secs with a set rest of a few minutes 5 times over counting to 3 between each move. I completely fluffed the timing and duration but will aim to do a couple of sets properly next week.
Impressed that you are disecting the diffrent types of PE.
Are these timed circuits?. With training resistance to fatigue the duration is as important as load. With circuits you can set the level of difficulty but as you get more practiced at the moves the duration will drop so you end up training something a bit diffrent from where you started.
All this talk of PE got me doing one set last night laddering uop and down a systems board on incut edges timed for 90secs with a set rest of a few minutes 5 times over counting to 3 between each move. I completely fluffed the timing and duration but will aim to do a couple of sets properly next week.
In reply to Simon Lee:
That rockprodigy article you posted on the other thread was a good one, not read it all yet, but some good things to think about.
I did the "biscuit routine" at the wall last night, doing about 25 moves of PE with 5 mins rest, and did 8 sets. The problem I've found at both walls is at the angle I'm trying to train at 10/15 degrees, I end up having to downclimb as there are no sideways options at the top.
Not sure downclimbing is quite the same as a decent circuit but certainly got the pump on and will persevere with it.
That rockprodigy article you posted on the other thread was a good one, not read it all yet, but some good things to think about.
I did the "biscuit routine" at the wall last night, doing about 25 moves of PE with 5 mins rest, and did 8 sets. The problem I've found at both walls is at the angle I'm trying to train at 10/15 degrees, I end up having to downclimb as there are no sideways options at the top.
Not sure downclimbing is quite the same as a decent circuit but certainly got the pump on and will persevere with it.
In reply to Simon Lee:
I would suggest that is the mystical 'power endurance'....as opposed to Anaerobic endurance?
> (In reply to abarro81)...Thoughts?
>
> Impressed that you are disecting the diffrent types of PE.
>
>
>
> All this talk of PE got me doing one set last night laddering uop and down a systems board on incut edges timed for 90secs with a set rest of a few minutes 5 times over counting to 3 between each move. I completely fluffed the timing and duration but will aim to do a couple of sets properly next week.
>
> Impressed that you are disecting the diffrent types of PE.
>
>
>
> All this talk of PE got me doing one set last night laddering uop and down a systems board on incut edges timed for 90secs with a set rest of a few minutes 5 times over counting to 3 between each move. I completely fluffed the timing and duration but will aim to do a couple of sets properly next week.
I would suggest that is the mystical 'power endurance'....as opposed to Anaerobic endurance?
In reply to abarro81:
Also, I don't quite follow the 'inverse resting' time method you refer to - must reread biscuit's earlier post and see if I can understand it.
> I've been convinced doing circuits in sets like this is the way to fitness, it certainly lets you pump your arms full of more lactic acid than my old tactic of doing fixed rest times with the objective of 6-8 reps on the circuit then just stopping.
>
Tbh, looking at your profile, whatever you're doing seems to be working, so I'm not going to say the method I've done it is better or correct It was taken from the Self Coached Climber book and I must admit, I had wondered about the possibility of doing repeat 4x4's, after allowing sufficient recovery time between each session of 16 problems.>
Also, I don't quite follow the 'inverse resting' time method you refer to - must reread biscuit's earlier post and see if I can understand it.
In reply to Simon Lee:
Sorry bit of a brain dump - hope I answered the question in a roundabout way.
I wish someone would compliment me in that way.
Yes question answered. Your str end is good enough for the routes you want but if there are individual crux moves on it then training for the str to get through them makes sense to me; especially as you may well have more gains to make in str as opposed to end.
Sorry bit of a brain dump - hope I answered the question in a roundabout way.
I wish someone would compliment me in that way.
Yes question answered. Your str end is good enough for the routes you want but if there are individual crux moves on it then training for the str to get through them makes sense to me; especially as you may well have more gains to make in str as opposed to end.
In reply to witnessthis: I would suggest that is the mystical 'power endurance'....as opposed to Anaerobic endurance?
No regime will perfectly equip you for all the variable difficulties of different sport routes however you choose to categrise the diffrent stages in the spectrum. The way different energy systems are utilised in climbing is far from fully understood but any structured approach is better than unfocussed dabbling.
No regime will perfectly equip you for all the variable difficulties of different sport routes however you choose to categrise the diffrent stages in the spectrum. The way different energy systems are utilised in climbing is far from fully understood but any structured approach is better than unfocussed dabbling.
In reply to Simon Lee: I was considering the strategy used for marathon training, in that at the end of an enduarace session, you would put in some hill sprints or shuttle runs with the aim of increasing strength when your already fatigued The idea is that you will never have to run a complete marathon distance in training, but will have the strength to complete the run on the day of the event.
I wondered how usefull this would be in training power endurance, say at the end of a session to try and complete some 2-3 move problems, that feel hard when fresh, and almost impossible when fatigued.
I have tried it a few times, but it is often hard to find the motivation to do when your feeling boxed after a PE session. Any thoughts on this strategy?
I wondered how usefull this would be in training power endurance, say at the end of a session to try and complete some 2-3 move problems, that feel hard when fresh, and almost impossible when fatigued.
I have tried it a few times, but it is often hard to find the motivation to do when your feeling boxed after a PE session. Any thoughts on this strategy?
In reply to badger barrow:
I have seen people writing about fingerboarding after climbing but i think more general routes sessions and ARC'ing than after a str end session.
The end of a marathon endurance session would be more equivalent to these than str end.
I did a str end session at the wall the other night and thought about getting on the beastmaker after. Not a chance as you say i was boxed.
I am going to fingerboard after tonights planned session of on-sighting routes at the wall though.
It should hopefully use the already increased metabolic effect from the training you've done to make the most of the subsequent maximal session - according to Serpico anyway.
I have seen people writing about fingerboarding after climbing but i think more general routes sessions and ARC'ing than after a str end session.
The end of a marathon endurance session would be more equivalent to these than str end.
I did a str end session at the wall the other night and thought about getting on the beastmaker after. Not a chance as you say i was boxed.
I am going to fingerboard after tonights planned session of on-sighting routes at the wall though.
It should hopefully use the already increased metabolic effect from the training you've done to make the most of the subsequent maximal session - according to Serpico anyway.
In reply to badger barrow: I wondered how usefull this would be in training power endurance, say at the end of a session to try and complete some 2-3 move problems, that feel hard when fresh, and almost impossible when fatigued. I have tried it a few times, but it is often hard to find the motivation to do when your feeling boxed after a PE session. Any thoughts on this strategy?
Probably not that useful and maybe counter-productive. Generally its not good to combine the two in one session but if you must then do the strength first. In strength training you are mainly training the muscles in PE you are mainly training the anaerobic energy systems to endure more. Better still keep them seperate i.e. train one early in the day and the other in the evening. IMO DYOR etc
Probably not that useful and maybe counter-productive. Generally its not good to combine the two in one session but if you must then do the strength first. In strength training you are mainly training the muscles in PE you are mainly training the anaerobic energy systems to endure more. Better still keep them seperate i.e. train one early in the day and the other in the evening. IMO DYOR etc
In reply to richardh:
I had the same problem although at 7b. Endlessly researched it but then i had a trip on a yacht from the azores to eire, so did nothing except holiday for a month, sat on ass and ate, gained 2 kgs, did no other training or climbing, then sent it first climbing day back!
Perhaps you need a break.
I had the same problem although at 7b. Endlessly researched it but then i had a trip on a yacht from the azores to eire, so did nothing except holiday for a month, sat on ass and ate, gained 2 kgs, did no other training or climbing, then sent it first climbing day back!
Perhaps you need a break.
In reply to Simon Lee: I know what you mean, the problems would have to be static problems or even fingerboard work to avoid injury, i wasnt thinking of absolute strength as these are problems you can already do when fresh, i was more thinking to create the feeling of performing a hard crux move at the top of a route when already fatigued, obviously you would be able to perform the move in isolation when rested. i guess the timming between completeing the circuit or route and moving onto the fingerboard would be crucial.
In reply to Simon Lee:
I am not sure about that though periods of adaption from being in'training' to 'performance' modes are at least in english training literature scantily covered.
Otherwise if you go by the broadest outline that the french and spanish use..you are left with this 1.power endurance(3-8? moves)
2.Short anaerobic endurance(8-25 moves)
3.long anaerobic endurance(25-50 moves)
4.Recovery endurance(50 moves+)
5.Local endurance
assesing what is what can be helped by contact time,PE..up to 1min ?,AE up to 5mins etc etc.
nothing though can be exact as you indicate but if you do have definite goals and want to train for these if the above is covered i do not think you an go to very far wrong....
I am not sure about that though periods of adaption from being in'training' to 'performance' modes are at least in english training literature scantily covered.
Otherwise if you go by the broadest outline that the french and spanish use..you are left with this 1.power endurance(3-8? moves)
2.Short anaerobic endurance(8-25 moves)
3.long anaerobic endurance(25-50 moves)
4.Recovery endurance(50 moves+)
5.Local endurance
assesing what is what can be helped by contact time,PE..up to 1min ?,AE up to 5mins etc etc.
nothing though can be exact as you indicate but if you do have definite goals and want to train for these if the above is covered i do not think you an go to very far wrong....
In reply to badger barrow:
The training I do at the moment has a very similar structure to this. I am currently working on a prolonged phase targetted at my strength endurance in fingers, shoulders and arms. Unlike Simon, I think that strength endurance is the key to most british sport routes, although this probably reflects our relative natural strengths as climbers.
I'm totally naive about any research on this, so feel free to disregard it as uneducated nonsense, but in doing a str. end. session, I try to recognise that it is important to train endurance under different loads. I guess what I mean by that is that strength endurance is a broad term which includes your ability to cope with anything from 10 very hard moves in a row, to 40-50 much less hard moves.
My session will typically involve some bouldering, followed by a number of (different!) 10-20 move circuits with 4-6mins rest. After a brief recovery period I'll typically move onto to longer circuits of around 40 moves and with much shorter rests (typically 1-2 minutes). These longer circuits target strength endurance, but also have some impact on recovery. After this I'll either do 10 sets of 6-8 weighted pull-ups, or a set of 10, ten-second deadhangs, targeting the 'strength' end of strength endurance.
Again, this might be totally stupid given the state of sports science....?
The training I do at the moment has a very similar structure to this. I am currently working on a prolonged phase targetted at my strength endurance in fingers, shoulders and arms. Unlike Simon, I think that strength endurance is the key to most british sport routes, although this probably reflects our relative natural strengths as climbers.
I'm totally naive about any research on this, so feel free to disregard it as uneducated nonsense, but in doing a str. end. session, I try to recognise that it is important to train endurance under different loads. I guess what I mean by that is that strength endurance is a broad term which includes your ability to cope with anything from 10 very hard moves in a row, to 40-50 much less hard moves.
My session will typically involve some bouldering, followed by a number of (different!) 10-20 move circuits with 4-6mins rest. After a brief recovery period I'll typically move onto to longer circuits of around 40 moves and with much shorter rests (typically 1-2 minutes). These longer circuits target strength endurance, but also have some impact on recovery. After this I'll either do 10 sets of 6-8 weighted pull-ups, or a set of 10, ten-second deadhangs, targeting the 'strength' end of strength endurance.
Again, this might be totally stupid given the state of sports science....?
In reply to badger barrow:
I did it last night after an ARC'ing session. Seemed to go OK.
45 mins ARC 15 min rest 30 mins ARC and a quick warm up when i got home and i did an OK fingerboard session. I feel very 'empty' today in my forearms.
Bit of an experiment really. Not sure if one after the other interferes with each other in a good way or a bad way. I'd hate to think i've un-done all the good work from the world's most boring ARC session.
> I have tried it a few times, but it is often hard to find the motivation to do when your feeling boxed after a PE session. Any thoughts on this strategy?
I did it last night after an ARC'ing session. Seemed to go OK.
45 mins ARC 15 min rest 30 mins ARC and a quick warm up when i got home and i did an OK fingerboard session. I feel very 'empty' today in my forearms.
Bit of an experiment really. Not sure if one after the other interferes with each other in a good way or a bad way. I'd hate to think i've un-done all the good work from the world's most boring ARC session.
In reply to Simon Lee:
Midgets:
What's the logic behind putting some more strengthy stuff at the end (if you know)? Is this at the end of an 800 move monster session of doom? I'm almost invariably too screwed at the end of a circuits session to consider hanging off anything small enough that it feels likely to be doing me any good.
> (In reply to abarro81)
> Impressed that you are disecting the diffrent types of PE.
Well, us students have to find some way to fill our days when capillarising becomes too dull...> Impressed that you are disecting the diffrent types of PE.
> Are these timed circuits?
No I'm quite bad at that. I usually start out trying not to climb too fast but by the time it gets hard I end up forgetting and just climbing.Midgets:
What's the logic behind putting some more strengthy stuff at the end (if you know)? Is this at the end of an 800 move monster session of doom? I'm almost invariably too screwed at the end of a circuits session to consider hanging off anything small enough that it feels likely to be doing me any good.
In reply to witnessthis:
The model they propose in the Self Coached Climber is useful in reframing endurance i.e. Performance = Duration x Movement Intensity. You can tweak the D or the MI to achieve the effect you are after - the intensity can be continuous, varied or have partial recovery points.
The model they propose in the Self Coached Climber is useful in reframing endurance i.e. Performance = Duration x Movement Intensity. You can tweak the D or the MI to achieve the effect you are after - the intensity can be continuous, varied or have partial recovery points.
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