UKC

Seeing as overhanging juggy stuff causes me more problems than crimpy stuff I am thinking of hitting the gym for a couple of months or so before winter climbing wall training. Does anyone have any advice re training, eg specific exercises/muscle groups, no of reps vs intensity, how many weeks training for significant benefits, inury prevention etc? Or would a wall training/ pull up bar training programme be better than the gym?

Thanks

Kevin

In reply to kevin stephens:
Rotator Cuff is a must do.
Google it, and train it.

mh

In reply to kevin stephens:

I'd focus on bar work

Gresh recommended a session that seems good though you may/will have to work up to doing a fullsession if approaching from scratch:
1.Warm-up
2.Assisted 1arm 2-4attempts each arm at 1rep then 2-4attempts at 3 reps each arm
3. Assisted 1arm lock-offs 2-4attempts each arm at full-lock for 5 secs then 2-4 attempts each arm at 90deg for 5 secs
4. 2armed power pulls 2-4 sets of 5 pullups fast as pos up then slowly down
5. Bachar ladder set if you have one
6. 2 arm pullups 2-4 sets of 6 with max resistance (pos use weight belt)
7. Travelling pullups wide grip pull to centre hold 2secs touch chimn back middle, then other side holding for 2 secs 1-3 sets of 4 touches each side
8. Front lever 3 attempts
9. Hanging knee raises 3 sest 10-20 reps

As an intro to free weights complex exercises are a time effecient, effective and comprehensive approach. Javorek videos such as this are useful demos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eZH1nwl45g&feature=channel and a dumbell complex can be useful as a warm-up for the above.

In reply to kevin stephens: get the bicep curls going with different hand positions - normal, reverse, hammer. Also one armed lat pull downs. And as has been posted before rotator cuff exercises - get on the cable machine and do external rotations and the lawnmower pull.
Reverse flyes and also good

In reply to kevin stephens:I find Hindu press ups excellent for allround upper body conditioning , Start off in the downward facing dog yoga position and do a pressup , then reverse the move . its quite intense but def trains all the right muscles. there are videos on you tube to help get the movement right

In reply to nk:

Hey - pull ups are great for this. What I would say is don't get too bulky. strength to weight is important too!

In reply to kevin stephens:

I've never bothered with gyms.

All my shoulder and arm strength comes from swimming (use different strokes), surfing, mountain biking (can be surprisingly physical) and, dare I saw it, actually climbing.

Worth considering your technique, too - if you're trying to climb with bent arms all the time, you're wasting energy. Keep straight arms as much as you reasonably can.

In reply to LastBoyScout: everything you are doing sounds a bit back and shoulder orientated ... it's advisable to work the antagonists to cut down on injuries in the long term

In reply to shark:

personally wouldn't go anywhere near the workout you suggest looks an almost guaranteed recipe for elbow and shoulder problems

In reply to kevin stephens:

i used to suck hard at big overhangs, in the last 2 years i've almost leveled my performances at them with my slabs and vertical walls. Doing some strenght exercise work helped me a lot, but i wouldn't focus exlusively on your arms/upper body.

if on big overhangs your problems involve :
-losing feet all the time on big moves, and/or having trouble to put them back on the wall
-swinging out of control
-very bad time at managing stretched-out positions
-inability to make good use of poor footholds
-constantly choosing footholds that are high and close to your center of gravity, hard time at seeing how low, far away footholds can be useful
-hips constantly away from the wall, hard time at bringing them closer when required by a move

then train your core first, it is probably a bigger limiting factor than you think, even bigger than your arms.



working on a front lever at the pullup bar is a very good one but needs to be approached carefully and you shouldn't aim directly at it if you are too far, you can harm your lower back.

if you are far, limit yourself to planks : facing down, on the side, reverse.


as far as upper body goes, personally i've felt the most important muscles on overhangs are lats, and you can skip training your biceps in isolation (they will get trained anyway in most lat-specific exercises). Lat machine, rowers, front lever at the pullup bar if you can...

In reply to lost1977: personally wouldn't go anywhere near the workout you suggest

Me neither if I was built like you

In reply to shark:

my build has nothing to do with it and at just under 13 stone i ain't massive.

reasons i dont like the routine you suggest pretty much the whole routine is based around pull up type exercises and hanging on straight arms (not good for shoulders or elbows). for a functional strength for climbing + good shoulder health routine the shoulders+arms need to be working together and in a much more varied way (push/pull and rotate)

In reply to lost1977:

Your mass has something to do with bodyweight exercises and nearly 13 stone is probably upper quartile for climbers.

Yes - you don't lock out/go to straight arms on pullups. Most people know this.

The less specific to climbing the exercise the more dubious I am of the benefits. Improved shoulder health/prevention of impingement can also be achieved with yoga type stretches and improved posture.

In reply to shark:


you should get a job in the circus as your mind reading skills are amazing, i haven't even suggested a routine but you have already made assumptions

In reply to ghisino: If you are doing the plank just do them for 30 secs on each and once you can do this you can up the ante a bit eg lifting arms/legs off the floor, using a swiss ball ... my fave is swiss ball under feet and hands on medicine ball ... face plant central, oh and then trying one hand on medicine ball ... ps just done a core stability course for my personal training qual

In reply to lost1977:

You advocated pushing as well as pulling and rotating (for shoulder health). Climbing is more about pulling than pushing and rotating and there are other ways to steer clear of injuring shoulders. That was what I was refering to.

Ive never knowingly done push or rotating exercises or severely injured my shoulders or elbows (well maybe once and it was nothing to do with pullups).

In reply to shark:

although pulling is more common in climbing rotation and pushing are also used and often in potentially unstable shoulder positions which is why i advocate training the shoulder in all movements making the shoulder more balanced.

pretty much all the exercises you recommend involve hanging from the arms (very much like climbing) with the added volume of these exercises overuse injuries are more likely (like the ones you hear about all the time on here). i'm not saying your exercises are necessarily bad but better to use a few of them with other exercises rather than all of them

In reply to kevin stephens: every thing in moderation including moderation

In reply to shark:


Really??? Am I a heffa at13 stone??? Most guys i climb with are Way heavier than me? Then again, we're all pretty powerfully built. Except me, I'm mostly dohnuts

In reply to bouldery bits:

Probably not. Thinking about it - its a view based on the company I keep and the sport crags I tend to go to. Draw your own conclusions !

In reply to kevin stephens: dont use too much weight as you will need stamina training and not bulk up. try reverse curling for forearm strength staring on a low weight with dumbells. the tricep kick backs with the same weight, set yourself reps like 4 sets of 5. do pull up with different widths of grip the wider you can get to the better then do the same with the reverse grip still on 4 sets of 5. to do your core strength do leg raises off the end of a bench then. hang in the pull up position to increase strength on straight arms it works your shoulders and sinue. then do leg raises in this position. just increase reps until you can easily do 4 sets of ten then up the weight.

In reply to kevin stephens: hey,
im a climber and a personal trainer.
i would suggest that hitting the gym would be beneficial to most peoples climbing as long as your doing it right.
dont only concentrate on the pulling movements put also exercise some pushing movents (e.g. chest press/shoulder press) to keep your muscles balanced.
in terms of reps and weight your going to want a good mix of power, strength, endurance and combine this with a good strength to weight ratio. to help achive this i would recomend using a technique called pyramid sets. this involves using a lower weight (60% 1 rep max) and a high rep count (perhaps 15) and every set you increase your weight and decrease reps e.g. reps- 15,12,10,8 and weight 60,65,70,80% 1rep max.
saying this everyone is different and respond differently to each technique. if your still stuck head down to your local gym and ask an exercise professional there or email me at timcook207@msn.com and ill try to help you with some more specific info.

In reply to kevin stephens:

I may possibly have misunderstood the question....but is the answer 'pies'?

In reply to kevin stephens: Without stating the obvious - cant you just start your winter training now and get onto the steep stuff ? Climbing will help you more than going to the gym.

Which aspect of overhanging climbing is you weakest point ? - what stops you from getting to the belay or toppng out ? When you have the answers to this find out how is best to train your weaknesses but do this by climbing more.

In reply to krabi123:

there are some climbing weaknesses which are best addressed in the gym rather than at the wall (i use the term gym loosely)

In reply to lost1977: Any time in the gym should only be in addition to climbing. I guess it all depend on where you are at with you climbing, if you are just starting out then climbing more will be of most benefit, if you are already climbing a lot then supplimental exercises may help - like you say, it all depends on what you call a gym Which weaknesses do you think would be best working in the gym rather than climbing (outside of injury rehab) ? (genuine interest !)

In reply to krabi123: I guess (in reply to myself) core work would be considered a 'gym exercise'.

In reply to krabi123:

completely agree that gym time should only be supplemental rather than a replacement. main weaknesses which i think are best addressed in a gym type environment are rotator cuff work and lower back (in the form of posterior chain work rather than isolated lower back). both these areas only tend to get addressed when injury occurs although pre-hab can bring noicable benefits. also some types of grip work maybe best trained in the gym because you can isolate it better and have more control over things like resistance and tut (time under tension)

The Way I approach things is a mix of both climbing and weights. Heavy low reps (3-8) compound exercises mainly for strength, once or twice a week. You can train your muscle endurance on the wall and make it climbing specific.

Health and being injury free should be no1 priority in my opinion. Like people mentioned earlier on, work on strengthening your rotator cuff (the small shoulder muscles). Push ups to strengthen your shoulder girdle, and can be done anywhere, so its a great exercise.

The exercises I use at the gym are mainly aimed at training antagonist muscles, the ones less used in climbing, therefore creating balance, and shoulder/elbow/tendon health

Climbing/General Muscles:
Deadlifts - trains the whole body, gives grip/forearms a good workout.
Power Cleans - creates explosive power, could translate to dyno's
Barbell Row - Big back exercise
Pull ups - weighted, or train lock off's for climbing situations
Hanging leg raises and Hyper-Extensions - Remember core isnt just abs, lower back is very important, you twist and turn into weird positions sometimes while climbing.

Antagonist:
DB Press - Need to balance chest and back strength
DB Overhead Press - Climbing strengthens the rear shoulder mainly, this will work the rest
Dips(weighted) - 2/3's of your upper arm is triceps, the biceps are tiny in comparison
Push ups with a weighted vest and/or Gymnastic rings.

The Gymnastic rings really help your stabilising muscles, and gives your core a good workout at the same time, plus using the rings you can do some really cool variations of the exercises.

I stick to DB's and avoid barbells for the simple reason being your stronger arm/hand will always help your weaker side on barbell exercises, So Dumbbells or even Kettle bells if you can get hold of them are more Beneficial.

In reply to Kaizen:

rings and kettle bells i like your thinking

In reply to kevin stephens: I would say just climbing- overhang and layback routes. Do as hard routes as possible. It helps that your technique is poor, then you have to use a lot of shoulder and arm strength. Go climbing at least twice a week, for around 3 hours each time. Also do really tough routes on top rope that you know you can't manage, just to use all your strength.
And in combination of that, you can do some weight-training. And cardio maybe.
But important that you think about food all the time, and eat every now and then. you can eat cereal, banana with yoghurt or milk and two slices of bread with whatever you like- ham, etc for breakfast. and before lunch just eat fruits, nuts, yoghurt, ... and for lunch either a warm meal of some sort or the same as for breakfast, and before dinner, eat banana, apple and other fruits, and nuts, and candy or chocolate. and for dinner- have a lot of meat and a little vegetables. sometimes only a huge huge salad. for lunch you can have cottage cheese with a dash of jam too. For dessert you can have some fruits and chocolate cake or jelly,something sweet. Drink water in between of the meals. And juice, milk, smoothie, tea/coffee..

This is how I gained 7kilos and built huge shoulders- a climbing body this past year. So,I'm sure not all this weight is muscles, since my thighs are pretty wide and my arms and tummy has too much fat..

hope this helps.

In reply to kevin stephens:

(1) As everyone says, climbing is the best training for climbing

(2) Supplemental weight training can help (a) if you're addressing a particular weakness (b) to avoid injury

(3) Adding in some supplementary core exercises to your normal routine will probably help

(4) Since 'shark' climbs in the F8s, I'd seriously consider his workout suggestion.

In reply to jessica_0601:

No No No NO!! It is bad that your technique is poor because if you had good technique then you would be able to become even better at this style of climbing by becoming stronger once you knew how to move efficiently....

so id say don't train strength train technique first