UKC

I'd like some advice on how to extend placements please based on this picture:

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6383/extender.jpg

I've made a pretty sloppy job of it, but as you can see, theres a nut on the right of the picture, extended with a short quickdraw, clipped to a sling. The sling has an overhand knot in it, with a screwgate attaching it to the rope. The screwgate is through the section of sling ABOVE the overhand knot.

Forget for a minute that 1) the nut was probably unecessary (I had the fear...) 2) there was probably a placement on the left more in line, that i missed and 3) my pitiful efforts still haven't decreased the rope drag much. Is that how you'd correctly extend a nut placement? I didn't have any trad-draws, but had a couple of 120cm slings. Does it matter which part of the sling the screwgate goes through?

cheers
Ian

In reply to eeonz: im no expert, but in the same situation if i put that placment in and wanted to extend it massivley i would have:
clipped a draw/single crab to the nut
clipped the sling through the crab on the nut
clipped another draw/single crab to the sling
clipped to the rope with the crab the sling is on.

Reading that it sounds really complicated, if you dont understand just ignore me

In reply to eeonz:

use two ropes

In reply to eeonz: also i would dismantle a couple of your draws and make 40cm draws with the slings. If you loop them up cleverly they can be easy to extend to 80cm/120cm if needs must

In reply to Jack Whiteley: I agree with jack, thats what i do. So you would basicly have a massive quickdraw made out of a sling and the two krabs off the quickdraw. It just means it is better practise because their is potential less that can go wrong because their is only 2 krabs in the use instead of 3. Plus you dont have to fanny around tieing knots in a sling.

MB

In reply to eeonz:

Given where the runners are then you've done a reasonable job. If the rope's dragging it's probably the piece below the sling holding it in against the rock.

The neatest, strongest solution (using what you had available in that picture) would be snap link on the nut (off the quickdraw), full length unknotted sling, screwgate on the rope end. Knots can be a pig to get out of slings once loaded.

...or sort something inline in the crack and clip it normally

jk

A simpler way of explaining the above would be:

"Dismantle the quickdraw, and replace the middle bit with your sling."

Also, get rid of your short quickdraws for trad, particularly if you're climbing on a single rope. Go for at least 15, and 20cm, plus some longer ones.

In reply to mitchellbowen1990:
I agree with you and Jack. Also if you have only got a massive sling then double it over and clip both ends. Make sure you clip it right though, otherwise it might pull through

In reply to eeonz:
The best thing to do is make up some slingdraws from 60 cm slings and 2 crabs. Have a look at this vid but I'd ignore the first 1 min about putting retainers on as I find these to be a faff when you want to extend the sling or use it for another purpose.
youtube.com/watch?v=x5AApEMDRyk&

made by a fellow UKC contributor Blanchie14c

In reply to eeonz:

What's the view on this? If your sling's too long, but halving it makes it too short, is an overhand a safe way of shortening the sling? Are there alternatives? What about if it's for a belay rather than a runner? What about if it's a loop of cord rather than a sling?

Questions, questions...

In reply to gethin_allen:
Agreed 100%, slingdraws are your friend when climbing with a single rope.

In reply to eeonz:

looking at that picture, with what you had i'd have

1) put nut in
2) doubled up the 120 into 60cm
3) clipped two sling ends into krab (screw or snap preferable narrow end of krab) and into wire
4) clip a krab through the sling (in obvious way - just try it if not sure) and into the rope

that should do it

if you wanted more then i might have clipped the q-d into the sling
instead of the 2nd krab - epends on how much extension you need.

In reply to lithos:

the drag seems to come from the kink where the extended piece is pulling the rope to the right. if you had not put an overhand in to shorten the long sling and clipped this runner below the one on the left I think the drag would have been less.

In reply to Max factor:

but that maybe because the rope is a bit slack (where the kink is), and tight the rope would be more in line (if not should have tied the sling a bit longer) Im surprised the drag was that bad

I hadn't seen that runner in the back the crack there. Your solution would be fine.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm not sure a 60cm sling would have cut it (it was extended by a 12cm QD and most of a 120 sling), but if I'd taken out the QD and clipped the open sling in to the nut, that would probably have been about right. Real question is - which part of the sling do you clip with the screwgate? Is it safe to clip either?

I appreciate all the links - I've got some 60cm slings kicking about waiting to have some snapgates put on them. Just need to go and buy them now! Also, too right about the short quickdraws. We ended up heading into hathersage to buy some 20cm ones after a couple of nuts pulled out upwards.

In reply to eeonz: buy a few 20cm one but strip your tiddly draws and buy some 60cm slings and make some extendible ones. They really are invaluable when climbing with a single rope.

In reply to eeonz:

What do you mean which part of the sling? Surely there are only two options, and if you clipped the part below the knot there would have been no point in putting the knot in in the first place...

The issue with knots is that they approximately halve the strength of the sling (see the DMM breaking slings video, for example), but most of the time this is seen as fine because you have 22kN to start with.

In reply to Steve John B:


All those ^ are fine. All of them are much weaker than using the right length sling opened out (including, bizarrely, doubling the sling).

Lots of alternatives but to be honest, any old mess will usually work if you've got yourself into a scrape. I used a wire and racking krab at the weekend to make an extender. I've used all sorts of tat before now as an improvised 'dogbone', not ideal but better than nothing.

Best plan ahead and either use a suitable rope system (two ropes, ends of your 'full' rope will do) or some longer 'draws.

jk

In reply to jkarran: Are you sure a doubled sling is weaker? I thought it was a lengthened out doubled sling on a cam was weaker because of the obvious twist rather than a doubled sling per se.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
I've seen that said before - the reasoning given was that the sling can cut through itself where there is a double layer over the crab.

I'm interested to see any evidence/test results on that?

In reply to eeonz:
I'd agree with everyone who's suggested making up some extendible quick-draws with slings - they're invaluable for all manner of trad excursions. As for sling clipping and knots, I'd say you want to avoid shortening slings with knots which are potentially going to take a big impact. Apart from anything else, they'll be a bugger to undo afterwards! The knot will reduce the strength of the sling so you'd be better off leaving it open and falling that extra 30-40cm or so.

Also, I know you've said "forget.. ..the nut was probably unnecessary", but that is an important point in this situation. By the looks of it, the sling would have actually hung lower than that previous piece of gear, and because it's way out to the side there would have been some pretty big sideways forces on both placements if you'd fallen. It is really difficult to keep your head together sometimes, but it's always worth forcing yourself to double-check what you're doing before whacking gear in randomly. I can't make a judgement really, but looking at the picture I'd be inclined to think that the overall protection was worse with the sling in than without (unless it was bomb-proof and the one below was dodgy!).

In reply to CurlyStevo:


No, I'm not sure and I've not seen it happen. Jim Titt who posts on here occasionally has mentioned it before now as being a counterintuitive result of some tests he did. I'm happy to take him at his word.

Either way, it's all still good enough which is what actually counts
jk